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Making nullsec vibrant again

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Dalziel Erata
Deliverance.
Arrival.
#81 - 2012-06-20 12:31:45 UTC
I'm a newb in terms of "what sec I make my living in", which seems to be the dividing factor here.

I've tried to make a few runs out into null-sec, just for some laughs. Lost every ship I've went in there with, without a single kill to my name. As someone who likes playing this game with a group of casual real life friends, I don't really want to use the option of joining a null-allaince, which makes null the most unprofitable region for me to be in. I'm not saying that ISK/hour is the only reason I play this game, but I can achieve the same cool pew-pewing with my alt in Red vs Blue, and keep my main funding that, plus extra.

No incentives for moving to null means that I, and a lot of other players won't be going there (regardless of the carebear label, it's just water off a ducks back to me)
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#82 - 2012-06-20 12:32:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Weaselior
0.0 is about empire building. That's why there's sov, that's why there's alliances, that's why you get your name on the map. Scrublord 'guudfitz' lowsec roamers, friendless highsec nobodies, and anyone who bleats about "blobbing" lacks any understanding of null. Null is about building empires, massive wars, and the like. A good null design includes a place for you - as serfs - because people with the will to power to create a nullsec empire need peasant villages to raze and plunder. But with your narrow-minded concerns over scraping isk from rocks, you lack the vision to have any meaningful input on the design of null, aside from suggesting what sort of salt lick would attract you.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#83 - 2012-06-20 12:36:21 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
  • Improve the performance of POS refineries
    • They can't just "improve the performance of POS refineries", they would have to drastically revamp them from the cockstabby state they're in now. Have you tried using one with, say, 10-15 hulks?


    Look, there's a lot of noise on the forums at the moment about tin foil and histrionics. I'm trying to not get caught up in it all. Apologies if I have understated just how painful it is to wait hours for a cycle of a refinery to finish just so you can repeat the process over again.

    Anyone who hasn't used a refinery: head to Singularity. Erect a POS, mine an Orca full of ore (all of ONE TYPE). Stick the ore in the refinery. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Get your minerals. Oh, BTW, POS refinery is also hard-capped at 75% efficiency, so that Beancounter implant? Useless. Refinery Efficiency? Don't waste your time. Veldspar Processing? DON'T MAKE ME LAUGH AT YOU.

    Contrast that to station refineries where you can "select all" in your hangar, click "refine", and accidentally reprocess your fleet of T2 ships with T2 ammo in the blink of an eye (BLINK OF AN EYE! MILLIONS OF UNITS OF EVERYTHING).

    It takes days to manufacture a Raven, less than a second to turn it back into a pile of tritanium and scratchings. Unless you reprocess it in a POS refinery. But you can't, so it's pointless trying: POS refineries can only process ore. Of one type.

    Day 0 Advice for New Players
    Jenn aSide
    Soul Machines
    The Initiative.
    #84 - 2012-06-20 12:38:54 UTC
    Weaselior wrote:
    0.0 is about empire building. That's why there's sov, that's why there's alliances, that's why you get your name on the map. Scrublord 'guudfitz' lowsec roamers, friendless highsec nobodies, and anyone who bleats about "blobbing" lacks any understanding of null. Null is about building empires, massive wars, and the like. A good null design includes a place for you - as serfs - because people with the will to power to create a nullsec empire needs peasant villages to raze and plunder. But with your narrow-minded concerns over scraping isk from rocks, you lack the vision to have any meaningful input on the design of null, aside from suggesting what sort of salt lick would attract you.


    Stop making me agree with Goons. STOP IT,

    While maybe not diplomatic, this is true. Just like the issues I have with high sec "casual/solo players" playing against the nature of the game but trying have ccp to make the game more friendly to them, well, this is really the same thing.

    Everything just isn't for everybody. Null should NOT be casual/solo/small group friendly. Lowsec, sure. Low end wormholes, maybe. high sec, who gives a damn (lol). But null is player empire big fleet space, and should be.
    Lord Zim
    Gallente Federation
    #85 - 2012-06-20 12:39:16 UTC
    Well, I guess that pretty much covers it all with how awesome POS refineries are. :P

    Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

    RIP Vile Rat
    Gun Gal
    Dark Club
    #86 - 2012-06-20 12:40:55 UTC
    Nullsec is the new carebear land.

    90% of o.o is blue's

    Massive titan, mothership blobs preclude anything being done.

    Look how dynamic nullsec was until this last year or so.

    That's why you hate highsec now. Your bored,
    Greyscale Dash
    Doomheim
    #87 - 2012-06-20 12:42:50 UTC
    Gun Gal wrote:
    Highsec is the old carebear land.

    90% of o.o is blue's

    Massive orca, golem blobs preclude any mission being hard.

    Look how quiet highsec was until this last year or so.

    That's why you hate nullsec now. Your bored,


    Fixed.
    Blawrf McTaggart
    Imperial Academy
    Amarr Empire
    #88 - 2012-06-20 12:42:53 UTC
    isn't there that 'statistic' that states that there isn't enough manufacturing capability in all of nullsec to manufacture the ammo that nullsec, in general, uses?
    Ohanka
    #89 - 2012-06-20 12:45:20 UTC
    masternerdguy wrote:
    Tyberius Franklin wrote:

    As low already has lvl 4's, where is the carrot in this?


    L4 Missions removed from hi - stick
    More L4 Mission agents added to lo - carrot

    Its a zero sum transaction.


    people will just stop doing level 4's.

    No one wants to go to lowsec. Its pointless. Even with this new "no level 4" mission idea

    North Korea is Best Korea
    Lord Zim
    Gallente Federation
    #90 - 2012-06-20 12:45:22 UTC
    I believe there was one statistic saying that deklein didn't have enough manufacturing capacity to make enough T2 ammo for a single engagement for our maelstrom fleet, let alone manufacturing anything else at the same time.

    Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

    RIP Vile Rat
    Niena Nuamzzar
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #91 - 2012-06-20 12:46:52 UTC
    Kimmi Chan wrote:

    I don't think you understand carebears anymore than carebears understand you. All Level 5s moved to low sec. Some people ran them others just continued to do Level 4s in High Sec.

    If you move Level 4s to Low Sec some people will take a chance on them but many will just do Level 3s in High Sec instead and 2 years from now you will want Level 3s moved to Low Sec.

    Yeah Idea move L5's back Arrowhigh sec!!! L4's are way too easy these days and that's hardly the way how to attract new players or keep the old Bears happy. Dear CCP devs, are you reading this? Cool
    Ohanka
    #92 - 2012-06-20 12:46:54 UTC
    Blawrf McTaggart wrote:
    isn't there that 'statistic' that states that there isn't enough manufacturing capability in all of nullsec to manufacture the ammo that nullsec, in general, uses?


    Nullsec markets are propped up by traders, not manufacturing.

    Even Amarr Factory Outposts don't have that many manufacturing slots. Really they need to boost the number of outposts in a system to 4 or somthing.

    North Korea is Best Korea
    Richard Desturned
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #93 - 2012-06-20 13:04:07 UTC
    masternerdguy wrote:
    I personally would love to see a JF nerf. In fact, jump logistics needs to get out of my EVE.

    Jump drives have done more to ruin lo/nullsec industrialists than anything else.


    yeah, freighter convoys are the height of excitement

    npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
    Oisin Sandovar
    Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
    #94 - 2012-06-20 13:06:07 UTC
    masternerdguy wrote:
    Here's the issue with using the carrot to push hi sec carebears into lo and null.

    No, the problem here is the idea that you will be pushing anyone anywhere.

    masternerdguy wrote:
    There are already people like me who are deeply entrenched in the existing lo and null gameplay. If you plant more carrots in our garden, we are in a perfect place to eat them before you even get there.

    That means we will use your buff to get even deeper entrenched and you'll have an even stronger obstacle to entering lo and null.

    By the way, if you want to get into null try living in outer ring. Its all NPC space with lots of space stations you can dock at.

    Then, by the same token this already exits and the problem is not solved by your stick method.

    "And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
    Oisin Sandovar
    Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
    #95 - 2012-06-20 13:07:18 UTC
    Frederick Sanger wrote:
    Null sec is pretty rad. You poors should give it a try.

    You poors should provide some real reasons as to why someone should move to null, other than by your say so.

    "And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
    Delen Ormand
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #96 - 2012-06-20 13:07:36 UTC
    Well, I've read pretty much every post in this thread and think there's a lot of point-missing.

    If you took all the alts out of hisec, you'd be left mostly with casual gamers. They're not motivated primarily by ISK/hr, although that's a part of it. Casual gamers generally don't want a hyper-competitive environment, they want a social activity, sometimes to the extent that their profession is a background while they chat with corpmates. Dicking around with the efficiency of refineries or the location of L4s is not going to change much because it' completely misunderstands people's motivations.

    Again, what stops a large number of people from getting into null is that they perceive it as being full of assholes. Now, I'm sure I'm going to get a load of the usual "this isn't hellokittyonline"-type replies, but if you want more people in null, the solution really isn't rocket science.
    Richard Desturned
    Royal Amarr Institute
    Amarr Empire
    #97 - 2012-06-20 13:09:04 UTC
    Oisin Sandovar wrote:
    You poors should provide some real reasons as to why someone should move to null, other than by your say so.


    because you've spent two years in the starting area, for instance

    npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
    masternerdguy
    Doomheim
    #98 - 2012-06-20 13:10:33 UTC
    Delen Ormand wrote:
    Well, I've read pretty much every post in this thread and think there's a lot of point-missing.

    If you took all the alts out of hisec, you'd be left mostly with casual gamers. They're not motivated primarily by ISK/hr, although that's a part of it. Casual gamers generally don't want a hyper-competitive environment, they want a social activity, sometimes to the extent that their profession is a background while they chat with corpmates. Dicking around with the efficiency of refineries or the location of L4s is not going to change much because it' completely misunderstands people's motivations.

    Again, what stops a large number of people from getting into null is that they perceive it as being full of assholes. Now, I'm sure I'm going to get a load of the usual "this isn't hellokittyonline"-type replies, but if you want more people in null, the solution really isn't rocket science.


    Because nullsec has no social interaction.

    Things are only impossible until they are not.
    Oisin Sandovar
    Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
    #99 - 2012-06-20 13:16:25 UTC
    Richard Desturned wrote:
    nuke hisec incursions, make it exclusive to lowsec

    done, more people leave hisec, even if it's just daytrips to lowsec

    Which still leaves null sec with nothing, and still does not drive people anywhere.Roll
    Stop nerfing things and look at ways to boost null sec to make it an attractive place to go.

    "And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey
    Oisin Sandovar
    Don't Die Interstellar Enterprises
    #100 - 2012-06-20 13:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Oisin Sandovar
    masternerdguy wrote:

    Except now more people go to lo sec.

    Which solves the problem of lo sec being depopulated.

    The point of the thread is making null sec more vibrant, not lo sec.

    "And the only people I fear are those who never have doubts", Billy Joel, Shades of Grey