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Mining Crystals - research copy time.
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Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-06-20 08:11:03 UTC
So I wanted to invent some mining crystals for ABC and Mercoxit ores, for personal use, at my little POS. First job is to make full run BPCs. I discover that it takes a couple of weeks to make 5 runs (which would allow me to invent, say, 2 x 10 run II BPCs)! Is there a reason these items take hugely longer to copy than most equipment modules? The cost of invention, if I include the cost of running the POS for a couple of weeks, is massive.

Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-06-20 11:43:54 UTC
So, nobody has an opinion on mining crystal invention?

Sad
Breezly Brewin
Vril Metaphysics Society
#3 - 2012-06-20 11:58:07 UTC
i know nothing about manufacturing but am bumping your thread hoping someone knowing what they're talking about answers. i would guess that they are lengthy because they are high demand, higher end and consumable thus a good item to manufacture. but again i know nothing of manufacturing, i just sell my minerals Big smile
Alyssa SaintCroix
Leihkasse Stammheim
#4 - 2012-06-20 12:22:09 UTC
I don't think there's no grand conspiracy against Invention or Copiers, the copy time starts out relatively low for something as innocuous as a Veld crystal and then starts going up and up as you move up the ladder of ore crystals -- with of course - ole Ark at the top of the list.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#5 - 2012-06-20 12:46:32 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
The cost of invention, if I include the cost of running the POS for a couple of weeks, is massive.

Be glad you noticed this. Most people do not.

If it's cheaper to buy from the market, then spend your time inventing something else. Always be flexible with T2 production.

Check my sig for a tool to help you out. You can include tower costs and copy times if you like. But yes, basically not worth the time to copy.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

Import CCP's SDE - EVE SDE Database Builder
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-06-20 13:12:01 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
The cost of invention, if I include the cost of running the POS for a couple of weeks, is massive.

Be glad you noticed this. Most people do not.

If it's cheaper to buy from the market, then spend your time inventing something else. Always be flexible with T2 production.

Check my sig for a tool to help you out. You can include tower costs and copy times if you like. But yes, basically not worth the time to copy.


I am, but as I said I wanted to stock for personal use, not sale. Even so, I'm wondering how on Earth it is that anyone inventing this item makes a profit. I guess they don't. This leads me to believe the BPO's are the main supply in-game. If this is the case, I think there's something a little unbalanced about it. Inventors should be able to compete, at a lower profit yes, but still be in the game.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#7 - 2012-06-20 13:34:48 UTC
Well T2 BPO's aren't the main supply, only for some items. I think Mining Crystals are an area where they are used due to the lower volume of the items. There is plenty of room to make profit from other items in the game. Just have to do some research.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

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Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-06-20 13:55:10 UTC
Zifrian wrote:
Well T2 BPO's aren't the main supply, only for some items. I think Mining Crystals are an area where they are used due to the lower volume of the items. There is plenty of room to make profit from other items in the game. Just have to do some research.


Running some numbers, with 12 copy slots and 12 tech 1 bpos, every two weeks I can generate 12 * 5 = 60 full run BPCs. This will net around 20 tech II BPCs from inventing (forget datacore costs at the moment). So that's a possible 200 crystals every two weeks, or 400 a month. Assuming I sell them all at current market, I suppose it would turn me a profit, even with half of turnover going to buy POS fuel and pay for datacores.

It's the opportunity cost though - those slots could be busy doing something else, potentially twice or three times more profitable.

I still think the copy time on them is far too high for what they are.
Salo Aldeland
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-06-20 13:55:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Salo Aldeland
Sometimes it's worth it to have multiple BPO's when copy times are so long. Five single-copy jobs of 100 runs instead of 1 five-copy job of 100 runs, you know?

Edit: You nailed it as I was posting.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#10 - 2012-06-23 01:03:49 UTC
Victoria Sin wrote:
Zifrian wrote:
Well T2 BPO's aren't the main supply, only for some items. I think Mining Crystals are an area where they are used due to the lower volume of the items. There is plenty of room to make profit from other items in the game. Just have to do some research.


Running some numbers, with 12 copy slots and 12 tech 1 bpos, every two weeks I can generate 12 * 5 = 60 full run BPCs. This will net around 20 tech II BPCs from inventing (forget datacore costs at the moment). So that's a possible 200 crystals every two weeks, or 400 a month. Assuming I sell them all at current market, I suppose it would turn me a profit, even with half of turnover going to buy POS fuel and pay for datacores.

It's the opportunity cost though - those slots could be busy doing something else, potentially twice or three times more profitable.

I still think the copy time on them is far too high for what they are.



If the copy time went down, the price would go down, nixing the profit again. You seem to understand opportunity cost and yet above you said that you wanted to stock for personal use rather than sale, implying that you think making things yourself is cheaper than buying them off the market, which would indicate that you don't understand opportunity cost.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#11 - 2012-06-23 10:02:45 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:

If the copy time went down, the price would go down, nixing the profit again. You seem to understand opportunity cost and yet above you said that you wanted to stock for personal use rather than sale, implying that you think making things yourself is cheaper than buying them off the market, which would indicate that you don't understand opportunity cost.


For me, the issue is the time, for others it's the profit. I want to make them myself because they're expensive. But I look at making them myself and discover they're expensive because of the copy time.

Of course feel free to append whatever insults you think you need to make yourself feel like the big man, to this thread.
Zifrian
The Frog Pond
Ribbit.
#12 - 2012-06-23 14:39:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Zifrian
Victoria Sin wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

If the copy time went down, the price would go down, nixing the profit again. You seem to understand opportunity cost and yet above you said that you wanted to stock for personal use rather than sale, implying that you think making things yourself is cheaper than buying them off the market, which would indicate that you don't understand opportunity cost.


For me, the issue is the time, for others it's the profit. I want to make them myself because they're expensive. But I look at making them myself and discover they're expensive because of the copy time.

Of course feel free to append whatever insults you think you need to make yourself feel like the big man, to this thread.

I think you are missing the point here. If they are not profitable for you to make, then you should buy from the market to use. Minerals you mine are not free.

If you want to make them because they are expensive, then that implies you *do* care about profit because for you that is money saved over buying from the market.

If it's time, because you want a steady supply for use, then you would be better off buying them and making something else for more profit, which you can use to buy more crystals with.

As a miner that uses and can make these crystals, I am also frustrated I can't make a local supply of them to use but the rate I use compared to how long they take to copy pretty much matches. You just have to take more things into account besides speed of production.

Maximze your Industry Potential! - Download EVE Isk per Hour!

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RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#13 - 2012-06-23 17:45:41 UTC
If you really want to make them locally, Copy alts don't take long.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#14 - 2012-06-23 17:47:42 UTC
Zifrian wrote:

As a miner that uses and can make these crystals, I am also frustrated I can't make a local supply of them to use but the rate I use compared to how long they take to copy pretty much matches. You just have to take more things into account besides speed of production.


Yes but the issue I'm pointing out is that they shouldn't take so long to copy!
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#15 - 2012-06-23 17:54:24 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Victoria Sin wrote:
Zifrian wrote:

As a miner that uses and can make these crystals, I am also frustrated I can't make a local supply of them to use but the rate I use compared to how long they take to copy pretty much matches. You just have to take more things into account besides speed of production.


Yes but the issue I'm pointing out is that they shouldn't take so long to copy!


Why not?

EDIT: Some mining crystals can be invented for a profit at current market prices, some cannot.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Victoria Sin
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-06-23 17:55:36 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Zifrian wrote:

As a miner that uses and can make these crystals, I am also frustrated I can't make a local supply of them to use but the rate I use compared to how long they take to copy pretty much matches. You just have to take more things into account besides speed of production.


Yes but the issue I'm pointing out is that they shouldn't take so long to copy!


Why not?


Because it's a cheap (relatively) little consumable, not a JF.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#17 - 2012-06-23 17:56:26 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Victoria Sin wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Victoria Sin wrote:
Zifrian wrote:

As a miner that uses and can make these crystals, I am also frustrated I can't make a local supply of them to use but the rate I use compared to how long they take to copy pretty much matches. You just have to take more things into account besides speed of production.


Yes but the issue I'm pointing out is that they shouldn't take so long to copy!


Why not?


Because it's a cheap (relatively) little consumable, not a JF.


So? Why should that affect Copy time?

By the way, I checked and one line doing Veld crystals takes 2h to make each crystal. You can have 10 lines (11, but Roll), and your Hulk takes 3 crystals. So long as your Hulk doesn't use more than one crystal per strip every 40m or so (I seem to remember them lasting longer than that) averaged over 24hrs (because your copying and invention can run while you're not at your computer; your Hulk should have to take some breaks), you can supply yourself.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Traedar
InterStellar Trading Syndicate
#18 - 2012-06-24 00:22:22 UTC
I think the real question here is: why does a Ammo BPO like Arkonor Mining Crystal I have a copy time of over an hour when most inventable ammo BPOs have copy time of less than a minute? It seems this should be changed to something consistent with other inventable BPs.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#19 - 2012-06-24 00:28:56 UTC
Traedar wrote:
I think the real question here is: why does a Ammo BPO like Arkonor Mining Crystal I have a copy time of over an hour when most inventable ammo BPOs have copy time of less than a minute? It seems this should be changed to something consistent with other inventable BPs.


Why?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Raphael Celestine
Celestine Inc.
#20 - 2012-06-24 00:53:55 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Traedar wrote:
I think the real question here is: why does a Ammo BPO like Arkonor Mining Crystal I have a copy time of over an hour when most inventable ammo BPOs have copy time of less than a minute? It seems this should be changed to something consistent with other inventable BPs.


Why?

Hopefully the devs don't just pull a random number out of the air when they decide things like copy times and mineral requirements.

That being the case, one would expect a certain amount of consistency among the statistics for similar items. There's no immediately obvious reason why mining crystals should be significantly more difficult to produce than other ammunition, so it's surprising to see that they are.
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