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Intergalactic Summit

 
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EoKI - On the Caldari

Author
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#21 - 2012-06-19 19:55:17 UTC
Halete wrote:
My apologies, Silas.

Let me clarify; I will not be answering questions, but I will be trying to avert blatant attempts to de-rail the topic.


The good General's comments seem quite related to the topic, actually.

Sabik now, Sabik forever

Korsavius
Revenent Defence Corperation
#22 - 2012-06-19 23:55:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Korsavius
Saisa Halete,

First, I would like to congratulate you for your announcement. Personally, I know first-hand the challenge of taking a stance that your neighbors would deem incorrect or abhorrent.

I'm not sure if you are aware, but I operate an initiative called the Cal-Matari Program. The program is responsible for various duties and performs equally various operations throughout the cluster. As head of the program, I would like to formally invite you to a conference at Cal-Matari's headquarters in Syndicate. There, we will be able to tell you more of what we do and possibly even emplace a similar trade relationship to the one we have ongoing with a couple other Minmatar factions.

I hope you will accept my offer, and I eagerly await your response.

Rikaato,
Korsavius
Taisa, Cal-Matari Operations Commander

Cold Wind's Blade || Follow the I-RED Newsfeed & visit the I-RED GalNet site!

Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party
#23 - 2012-06-20 01:17:02 UTC
And the absurd 'Cal Matari' movement raises its serpentine head once more. I thought we'd done away with this nonsense.

You understand, don't you, that these are the people who actively facilitate the enslavement of your Matari brothers and sisters? To collaborate with them is as gross a betrayal as I could ever encompass.

But, as General Inhonores says, I guess if all the cool kids are doing it.

Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station

Paul J Keating
The Light on the Hill
#24 - 2012-06-20 01:56:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Paul J Keating
It staggers me to see such words committed to print. To see a proud warrior so dismissive of the capabilities of her own people to decide their futures and fates, and instead telling of them the glorious Caldari State. To see someone claim the best way to help the weak and the starving from the horrors of this is to jump into bed with the very nation that seeks to defeat them.

I can see it now, the children walking through a museum on Matar; walking through the front doors they will see a triumphant statue of Tovil-Toba; they will marvel at this exemplar of the Minmatar, reminded forever that the true example they should aspire to was a Caldari mass-murderer.

They will see an exhibit showing once proud workers toiling away on weapons of war; in the foundries of molten promises and the factory lines of wracked dreams; all under the watchful eyes of the Haletes and Korsaviuses of the cluster. "Is that what it was like under the Amarr?" They will ask their parents. "No," will come the reply, "That is the future, that is The New Meritocracy".

The Republic deserves better then the sweet talking firewater salesmen who promise a future with the State.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#25 - 2012-06-20 02:04:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Katrina Oniseki
Once again, I'd like to reiterate that the Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive has no official statement or standing on this matter at this time.

The Cal-Matar program is a personal project of certain I-RED members, those outside I-RED, and even some pilots openly hostile to I-RED. While I-RED as an alliance is affiliated with the Cal-Matar program and has cooperated on certain Cal-Matar operations, the Cal-Matar project does not represent the alliance nor can it speak on our behalf.

If and when the Ishuk Raata Enforcement Directive has an official comment to make on this matter, it will be done so through either myself, Vice Executor Simca Develon, or Executor John Revenent.

Rikaato,
Katrina Oniseki
Shosho, I-RED Director of Public Relations

Katrina Oniseki

Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2012-06-20 02:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Halete
Paul J Keating wrote:
It staggers me to see such words committed to print. To see a proud warrior so dismissive of the capabilities of her own people to decide their futures and fates, and instead telling of them the glorious Caldari State. To see someone claim the best way to help the weak and the starving from the horrors of this is to jump into bed with the very nation that seeks to defeat them.

I can see it now, the children walking through a museum on Matar; walking through the front doors they will see a triumphant statue of Tovil-Toba; they will marvel at this exemplar of the Minmatar, reminded forever that the true example they should aspire to was a Caldari mass-murderer.

They will see an exhibit showing once proud workers toiling away on weapons of war; in the foundries of molten promises and the factory lines of wracked dreams; all under the watchful eyes of the Haletes and Korsaviuses of the cluster. "Is that what it was like under the Amarr?" They will ask their parents. "No," will come the reply, "That is the future, that is The New Meritocracy".

The Republic deserves better then the sweet talking firewater salesmen who promise a future with the State.


Your first mistake is mistaking the Republic for the Republic's people, for I hold nothing but pride in them.

Your second was creating such marvelous hyperbole over a woman's wishes to see her starving people fed and Matar's children cured of their infections.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Gottii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-06-20 02:42:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gottii
Im baffled by this. Im baffled by your willful ignorance.

The Caldari will not "leave us be". They dont leave anyone be. They are the most mettlesome of all the races (( CCP's exact words here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari )) Are you willfully blind, or merely ignorant?

They kill our kin in the Federation. They aid the enslavers of our kin in the Empire, and go out of their way to profit from it.

You seek to aid the slayers of our kin and the allies of our enemies. You seek to turn against those who helped us in our more dire moments.

The Federation saw us as a people to help. The Caldari saw us as a market to exploit. For this alone we should shout down nonsense such as this.

((edited part: didnt mean to post it, sowwy))
Dex Nederland
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
The Fourth District
#28 - 2012-06-20 04:03:19 UTC
The Federation sees you as a market as well, but they just are not honest about it.

Try restricting Quafe, CreoDron, Transtellar, etc activities in the Republic and see what happens.
Gottii
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-06-20 04:38:26 UTC
Dex Nederland wrote:
The Federation sees you as a market as well, but they just are not honest about it.

Try restricting Quafe, CreoDron, Transtellar, etc activities in the Republic and see what happens.



I would rather be seen as consumers, than commodities.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#30 - 2012-06-20 04:55:33 UTC
Gottii wrote:
They are the most mettlesome of all the races (( CCP's exact words here: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari ))


In which sense do you mean, exactly, pilot?

Yes, our traders can get aggressive when their work is threatened. Yes, we take pride in our military strength and have been known not to sit on our hands. Yes, we play host to the Practicals, who are ... let's not get into that.

We don't stick our faiths down others' necks. We won't tell you that your traditions are archaic foolishness. We won't shake our heads sadly at you if you say that you think differently than we do about how to run your own country.

Inward-looking, yes; self-interested, yes; materialistic, probably a bit too much (but I'm an Achur, so I would say that). The Caldari look after their own interests first, and if you wonder why we'd join forces with a bunch of conquerors like the Amarr, you need look no further than that.

We found them easier to deal with than the devil we knew.

The Gallente also found us to be people to help, Gottii, and did their utmost to help us right out of cultural existence-- more kindly than the Amarr, admittedly, but swallow too much of their influence and your identity will be no less dead.

We're aggressive traders, and we like a good profit. We will not, however, tell you how to live your life.

Of course, it took us a few hundred years to figure out that we did not have a friend in the Gallente, so I suppose it can take some long figuring. They're so nice, you know. Then again, your people already know what it is like to have someone actively trying to extinguish their culture, so maybe you'll figure it out faster.

Good luck, pilot. The Gallente are great allies as long as you don't mind turning into Gallente.

It'll be for your own good, of course. But that's a line you've heard before, yes?
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#31 - 2012-06-20 05:19:01 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
We won't shake our heads sadly at you if you say that you think differently than we do about how to run your own country.

I wouldn't go *that* far.

Your people might not go out of your way to correct what you see as the defects of other cultures, but you're an opinionated lot, and I've yet to converse with one for long who didn't give me their ideas on how to better Khanid society. And yes, I've gotten a number of head shakes when I explain that while slaves might not be cost efficient, simply letting them go and turn them into paid workers isn't going to happen, and that while they may have a great idea for improving the handling of one of our ships, Lord Hanaya won't stand for a change that violates certain esoteric Amarrian design principles.

Not that this is a bad thing, but yes, your compatriots do shake their heads.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Vikarion
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-06-20 05:32:54 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:
We won't shake our heads sadly at you if you say that you think differently than we do about how to run your own country.

I wouldn't go *that* far.

Your people might not go out of your way to correct what you see as the defects of other cultures, but you're an opinionated lot, and I've yet to converse with one for long who didn't give me their ideas on how to better Khanid society. And yes, I've gotten a number of head shakes when I explain that while slaves might not be cost efficient, simply letting them go and turn them into paid workers isn't going to happen, and that while they may have a great idea for improving the handling of one of our ships, Lord Hanaya won't stand for a change that violates certain esoteric Amarrian design principles.

Not that this is a bad thing, but yes, your compatriots do shake their heads.


Well, pilot, Khanid society doesn't seem to view slavery as a cultural artifact as much as a commercially useful system. Now, we won't tell you that you can't own slaves, but we will advise you that slavery is a less efficient economic system. Why? Well, we are trading partners, and we don't particularly like the institution of slavery. So if you don't actually have a religious attachment to slavery, then why wouldn't we advise you so? As allies and trading partners, it's actually almost an obligation to advise you of more efficient, useful, and humane policies, but we won't make you implement them, or even use economic pressure on you to force you to do so.

When Miss Jenneth states that we won't shake our heads at you, she doesn't mean we will emphatically agree with everything you do. That would be infringing on our sovereignty.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#33 - 2012-06-20 05:33:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Not that this is a bad thing, but yes, your compatriots do shake their heads.


*sigh*

Ah. That. Pride. "We do things this way. You might try it some time."

You're inevitably right, of course, though there's no cultural expectation that we should do so.

I would say, "Officially, we won't shake our heads," except for the nature of our-friend-and-fellow-citizen-in-charge, who, come to think of it, is probably a head-shaker.

What I will say is that if you tell us that you find your own way of doing things satisfactory, we won't generally push the point.

... unless somebody's trying to make a sale.

Hm. I may have to think about this a bit.

Edit:

Ha. I quite like your response, Vikarion, though I'm not 100% on whether it's accurate, either.

... Too tired. Can't think. Will have to return to this later. Hello, by the way.
Halete
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-06-20 05:43:41 UTC
Thank you Gottii, Aria.

I heard exactly what I wanted to from each of you.

"To know the true path, but yet, to never follow it. That is possibly the gravest sin" - The Scriptures, Book of Missions 13:21

Vikarion
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-06-20 05:50:18 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Ha. I quite like your response, Vikarion, though I'm not 100% on whether it's accurate, either.

... Too tired. Can't think. Will have to return to this later. Hello, by the way.


It's good to see you back, Suuolo.
Aurelie Severasse
Doomheim
#36 - 2012-06-20 06:06:14 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Good luck, pilot. The Gallente are great allies as long as you don't mind turning into Gallente.

It'll be for your own good, of course. But that's a line you've heard before, yes?


You see, it is not enough that you should become friends with the Caldari, my dear friends of Matar, you must hate the Gallente as well!

What complete tripe.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-06-20 11:51:16 UTC
Aurelie Severasse wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Good luck, pilot. The Gallente are great allies as long as you don't mind turning into Gallente.

It'll be for your own good, of course. But that's a line you've heard before, yes?


You see, it is not enough that you should become friends with the Caldari, my dear friends of Matar, you must hate the Gallente as well!

What complete tripe.


You misunderstand.

This is not an ultimatum that the Matar must hate the Gallente to befriend the Caldari. It is, in fact, a sincere warning to be wary based on our own past experience, something any aspiring friend or sincere associate would render.

~Malcolm Khross

Hans Nardieu
Federal Nationalist Party
#38 - 2012-06-20 12:22:29 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:


You misunderstand.

This is not an ultimatum that the Matar must hate the Gallente to befriend the Caldari. It is, in fact, a sincere warning to be wary based on our own past experience, something any aspiring friend or sincere associate would render.



I don't think Mlle Severasse does misunderstand, even though she is idealistic to the point of idiocy. Your pilot is arguing just this.

Col. Hans Nardieu (ret.) Chairman, National Party of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime Office of the Party Headquarters, Villore VII-6 Senate Bureau Station

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-06-20 12:40:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Khross
Hans Nardieu wrote:
Your pilot is arguing just this.


There is nothing in her words that suggests the Matari must hate, oppose or abandon the Gallente in any way. Her words are simply, "we experienced this and it took us a while to figure out, hope it doesn't happen to you to."

Yes, she has clearly stated that the Gallente Federation absorbs culture and surreptitiously promotes conformity to its social structure and culture, but your own pilots admit to that so I fail to see how this is a "you must hate the Gallente" decree.

EDIT: Besides, weren't you the very one that stated "it is desirable and inevitable that an inferior culture be absorbed by a superior one?"

~Malcolm Khross

Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#40 - 2012-06-20 14:19:51 UTC
I wish you best of luck in your endeavors. Trying to bring people to a better and mutual comprehension is laudable.