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Millions to attack, Trillions to defend?
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Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#121 - 2012-06-20 00:35:12 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
I love it how pewpewbrears think all their t2 stuff came from thin air...

They don't, they either made it using their alts or bought it from the market.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#122 - 2012-06-20 00:42:49 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
I love it how pewpewbrears think all their t2 stuff came from thin air...

They don't, they either made it using their alts or bought it from the market.


You couldn't tell from the way they speak on the forums, tho.

Its all YOU COWARDS IN HISEC COME OUT AND FIGHT. Of course, they camp their JF in an NPC corp and buy crap from said cowards.

An ecosystem needs prey and predator. One without the other destroys the ecosystem. 
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Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#123 - 2012-06-20 00:55:54 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
An ecosystem needs prey and predator. One without the other destroys the ecosystem.

There seems to be enough prey to sustain the predators thus far. If you're not willing to fight back, you can either pay someone else to do it or roll over and take it.

In truth, some people just need to admit that they're masochists and get on with it.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#124 - 2012-06-20 00:57:52 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
An ecosystem needs prey and predator. One without the other destroys the ecosystem.

There seems to be enough prey to sustain the predators thus far. If you're not willing to fight back, you can either pay someone else to do it or roll over and take it.

In truth, some people just need to admit that they're masochists and get on with it.


Lol well, you didn't have to get kinky...

However what does that have to do with the topic?
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Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#125 - 2012-06-20 01:01:30 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
However what does that have to do with the topic?

What does this

Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
I love it how pewpewbrears think all their t2 stuff came from thin air...

have to do with this topic?

We're long past discussing the OP.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#126 - 2012-06-20 01:05:53 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
However what does that have to do with the topic?

What does this

Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
I love it how pewpewbrears think all their t2 stuff came from thin air...

have to do with this topic?

We're long past discussing the OP.


Actually, no. It goes to the core of the drama.

Nullsec people who want highsec to be like nullsec, and vice-versa.

Why the game mechanic gets broken in a way it doesn't mitigate, but encourage, the drama is at the heart of the OP... which was mine...
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Ashrik Tyr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2012-06-20 01:08:48 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
It is banning by other means. That breaks the entire purpose of having allies. I rather go back to the old system then, this is feature is useless if one cannot play with it and push its limits.n.
Nothing's stopping you from bringing your "allies" into a mutual alliance. Or having your allies pony up the cash and wardec the aggressors themselves. Or any number of methods that involve actual allies, and not just highsec ganker corps who merely want cost-effective workarounds around having to pay a wardec fee themselves (which I imagine is what you actually want).

Someone should make a chart that on the Y axis has all your options for fighting back against nullsec wardecs, and on the X axis the options of "Works if you want to fight back against a nullsec alliance" and "Works if you want a free/low-cost war against a nullsec alliance"
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#128 - 2012-06-20 01:10:27 UTC
Ashrik Tyr wrote:

Someone should make a chart that on the Y axis has all your options for fighting back against nullsec wardecs, and on the X axis the options of "Works if you want to fight back against a nullsec alliance" and "Works if you want a free/low-cost war against a nullsec alliance"


Those are three axis. Four if you count free and low cost separate.
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Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#129 - 2012-06-20 01:13:58 UTC
Space-holding alliances should be unprotected by concord, and thus "kill on sight" whenever they enter Empire space.

Cue the null-bear tears Twisted
Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#130 - 2012-06-20 01:16:01 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Actually, no. It goes to the core of the drama.

Nullsec people who want highsec to be like nullsec, and vice-versa.

Why the game mechanic gets broken in a way it doesn't mitigate, but encourage, the drama is at the heart of the OP... which was mine...

Can you please phrase your answer in the form of a question? That makes absolutely no sense...

Speaking of the costs as "drama", I find it hilarious that the costs were much lower before this expansion and you couldn't bring in allies. Is it now a problem because you can't scrape the war-dec?

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#131 - 2012-06-20 01:21:49 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Actually, no. It goes to the core of the drama.

Nullsec people who want highsec to be like nullsec, and vice-versa.

Why the game mechanic gets broken in a way it doesn't mitigate, but encourage, the drama is at the heart of the OP... which was mine...

Can you please phrase your answer in the form of a question? That makes absolutely no sense...

Speaking of the costs as "drama", I find it hilarious that the costs were much lower before this expansion and you couldn't bring in allies. Is it now a problem because you can't scrape the war-dec?



Obviously, dear late comer, you need this thing called "context", which can only be acquired via TL;DR reading of the thread. Of course it doesn't make sense, since you are are talking about something entirely unrelated to the OP, as should be obvious if you read it.

TL;DR: new system was good step in right direction, needed tweaking, not a hilarious mechanic breaking nerf.

So the problem is not the permadec, its the trillions to bring allies and the disconnect between the linear increase on costs for the attacker and the logarithmic increase in costs for the defender. 
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Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#132 - 2012-06-20 01:24:20 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Space-holding alliances should be unprotected by concord, and thus "kill on sight" whenever they enter Empire space.

Cue the null-bear tears Twisted


They all would simply never venture into Empire except in neutral-to-highsec-blue-to-themselves alts.

Problem solved.

Its what FW players already do to be able to go to Jita if they are not caldari.
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Karl Hobb
Imperial Margarine
#133 - 2012-06-20 01:29:36 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
So the problem is not the permadec, its the trillions to bring allies and the disconnect between the linear increase on costs for the attacker and the logarithmic increase in costs for the defender.

So, what does that have to do with this

Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
I love it how pewpewbrears think all their t2 stuff came from thin air...

Besides, costs for the attackers is determined by the number of people in the target corp/alliance, while costs for the defenders is determined by the number of corps/alliances that are brought in as defenders. It's in your best interest to ally with a big corp or two since you get allies much cheaper than attackers get targets.

A professional astro-bastard was not available so they sent me.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#134 - 2012-06-20 01:41:12 UTC
Karl Hobb wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
So the problem is not the permadec, its the trillions to bring allies and the disconnect between the linear increase on costs for the attacker and the logarithmic increase in costs for the defender.

So, what does that have to do with this

Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
I love it how pewpewbrears think all their t2 stuff came from thin air...

Besides, costs for the attackers is determined by the number of people in the target corp/alliance, while costs for the defenders is determined by the number of corps/alliances that are brought in as defenders. It's in your best interest to ally with a big corp or two since you get allies much cheaper than attackers get targets.


If you scroll back in the thread, I described this as a decshield even under the broken "new" new system. Look it up. Which is something I consider a bad thing, corporations/alliances should grow because of the skill of its leadership with the metagame, not because it is convenient for wardec mechanics. There is already enough incentive to grow as it is, with the attacker having size-based fees to wardec.

As I said, read and contextualize: the T2 comment was an aside.

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Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#135 - 2012-06-20 02:13:12 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Space-holding alliances should be unprotected by concord, and thus "kill on sight" whenever they enter Empire space.

Cue the null-bear tears Twisted

They all would simply never venture into Empire except in neutral-to-highsec-blue-to-themselves alts.

Problem solved.

Its what FW players already do to be able to go to Jita if they are not caldari.

Love to make use of NPC corps and other things.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Ashrik Tyr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2012-06-20 05:38:16 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Ashrik Tyr wrote:

Someone should make a chart that on the Y axis has all your options for fighting back against nullsec wardecs, and on the X axis the options of "Works if you want to fight back against a nullsec alliance" and "Works if you want a free/low-cost war against a nullsec alliance"


Those are three axis. Four if you count free and low cost separate.

You're not good at graphing. You do not need a 4-dimensional structure to visualize this.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#137 - 2012-06-20 06:06:44 UTC
I probably missed this in the thread, and if so I apologize in advance, but what exactly are the new costs per ally you accept?

To address the OP, the point is to make you be choosy in whom you chose to bring into a war on your side, to consider the value of having them as an ally, to actually enable merc corps to flourish if they have a proven track record of being effective and to beg for scraps if they reek of fail (or are simply war dec whores who don't really commit to the battle).

I will agree that more tweaking needs to be done, however the original iteration of the new war dec system completely invalidated merc corps in favor of gaining tons of free war dec whores. This was diametrically opposed to the original intent and absolutely had to be changed. The only question is are these the correct changes and if so how do they need to be modified to attain the desired goal.

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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#138 - 2012-06-20 06:08:55 UTC
Ashrik Tyr wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Ashrik Tyr wrote:

Someone should make a chart that on the Y axis has all your options for fighting back against nullsec wardecs, and on the X axis the options of "Works if you want to fight back against a nullsec alliance" and "Works if you want a free/low-cost war against a nullsec alliance"


Those are three axis. Four if you count free and low cost separate.

You're not good at graphing. You do not need a 4-dimensional structure to visualize this.


Haha, that's funny because the only people that can can visualize a 4-dimensional structure are mathmeticians who have been blind since birth so they wouldn't play Eve Big smile

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Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#139 - 2012-06-20 06:12:28 UTC
Ashrik Tyr wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Ashrik Tyr wrote:

Someone should make a chart that on the Y axis has all your options for fighting back against nullsec wardecs, and on the X axis the options of "Works if you want to fight back against a nullsec alliance" and "Works if you want a free/low-cost war against a nullsec alliance"


Those are three axis. Four if you count free and low cost separate.

You're not good at graphing. You do not need a 4-dimensional structure to visualize this.


Sorry, but go back to school. You can represent multiple axis without extra dimensions. In fact, EVE presents several axis in their market charts with two dimensions.

This is not about math, its about business data presentation. One is science, the other art. And your explanation made no sense.
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