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Caldari Militia on verge of collapse - Quafe to launch new flavour ?
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Raphael Ordo
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#21 - 2012-05-17 04:41:53 UTC
Lialus Raithe wrote:
Not at all, this is not how a democracy functions...

... the orbital bombardment on Caldari Prime was in retaliation to the Orbital Bombing and sabotage done to Nouvelle Rouvenor. The bombardment was also done in stages, with a request for cease fire and surrender after each stage, all of which were denied.

So, to clarify, it wasn't the "people's decision" it was the military's response to the initial slaughter of have a million Gallente citizens who had no relation to or involvement in the conflict at hand.


Democracy is a government in which all the people that have come of age in a nation can vote to elect their representatives. So, in other words the people make the decisions.
At least that's what they teach you in school. I know not to be blind and that it was not the ordinary family on Gallente Prime that ordered the bombardment of Caldari Prime. Still, they chose the people that made that decision. They had a relation and an involvement on the conflict at hand. To say anything else is to mock your own democracy

Lialus Raithe wrote:
The Caldari people attacked a civilian city while the Federation was seeking a peaceful resolution to the tension between our two peoples and the Federation responded by seizing and bombarding the Caldari homeworld to attempt to force a cease fire. The center of the conflict was Caldari Prime, where the Caldari bombed a Gallente colony.


The so-called peaceful resolution was an egoistical view of peace from the Gallente point of view. Regardless of how the Caldari felt or our cultural differences.
If you really put yourself into the position that my people had to find themself in, during the siege and bombardment of their homeword, would you just lay down your sword and start pleading?
In that case we are far more apart than I previously considered our races to be.

A quote from the moment at hand:
"Caldari Prime burns, those left behind are choking on the dust and ash that fills the air, and you demand our surrender? Is this a joke? You have only hardened our resolve. Every drop of blood you have taken from us will be repaid -- with interest."
—CEP response to Federation demands for unconditional surrender after initial bombardment of Caldari Prime. CE 23155.1.18

And the State didn't bomb any Gallente colony. Period. Are the Federation willing to take full responsibillity to any sort of extremist organisation that resides within it? And ultimately let that organisation represent the Federation as a whole? I don't think so. Neither would the Caldari State.
But the Gallente were too narrow-minded and willing to get rid of the State and the threat is posed to their beloved nation - being ulitmately a better alternative to the Federation itself.

And in the case of the Admiral, I feel that we can no longer discuss weither his actions were either good nor bad.
We are different people. Different races. Different humans.
Í do not expect you to even try to understand our way of thinking. Nor will you. Not here.. And not on the coming cosmic battlefield.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-05-17 12:36:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lialus Raithe
Raphael Ordo wrote:

Democracy is a government in which all the people that have come of age in a nation can vote to elect their representatives. So, in other words the people make the decisions.
At least that's what they teach you in school. I know not to be blind and that it was not the ordinary family on Gallente Prime that ordered the bombardment of Caldari Prime. Still, they chose the people that made that decision. They had a relation and an involvement on the conflict at hand. To say anything else is to mock your own democracy.


I will concede that a Democracy is run by elected officials, but to claim that the people "put themselves in that position" because the elected officials chose to act a particular way in a particular situation is drawing a long conclusion. I guarantee you that many of the 200 million people slain by Admiral Tovil-Toba did not agree with, condone or support the violence that was taking place.

I do not believe we chose the best course of action in retaliating by bombing the Caldari homeworld, also killing civilians.

Raphael Ordo wrote:

The so-called peaceful resolution was an egoistical view of peace from the Gallente point of view. Regardless of how the Caldari felt or our cultural differences.


This is your opinion and not based at all on fact. The Federation's immediate response to the Caldari building secret colonies in deep space and harvesting unreported resources was to demand an explanation and surrendering of the facilities. The Caldari were part of the Federation at the time and this was a direct violation of the trust between our two people at the time. When confronted, the Caldari seceded from the Federation and then we immediately responded by seeking a peaceful, that means non-violent, resolution to the conflict. The Caldari then decided to sabotage and bomb Nouvelle Rouvenor. This is historical fact. If anyone put themselves in the position they were in, it was the Caldari by choosing to bomb a non-militant underwater colony over "cultural differences."

You did not even grant the Federation time to offer a proposal of resolution.

Raphael Ordo wrote:

If you really put yourself into the position that my people had to find themself in, during the siege and bombardment of their homeword, would you just lay down your sword and start pleading?


Interesting that you should ask this, really. Considering the Federation surrendered when civilian lives on Caldari Prime were put at risk when your fleet threatened to glass entire colonies on a planet that isn't even its homeworld. You weren't being commanded to plead, you were being commanded to stand down so a resolution could be reached.

Raphael Ordo wrote:

And the State didn't bomb any Gallente colony. Period. Are the Federation willing to take full responsibillity to any sort of extremist organisation that resides within it? And ultimately let that organisation represent the Federation as a whole? I don't think so. Neither would the Caldari State.


You're right, the State didn't bomb the colony because the State didn't exist at the time. The Caldari claim it was an extremist organization and I am willing to believe that, but I urge you to consider the facts:


  • You were founding members of the Federation, at peace and in cooperation with the Federation
  • We were working collectively on stargate research and manufacture
  • You were establishing hidden deep-space colonies apart from the Federation
  • You were establishing hidden resource collection facilities and storing the resources independently
  • Your response when these facilities were discovered was to immediately secede from the Federation
  • During non-aggressive conferences to seek a non-violent resolution to the situation, a Gallente colony on Caldari Prime is sabotaged and bombed by the Caldari


Now, since you demand that I put myself in your shoes, I request that you do the same. That is the information the Federation had to work with. Our response? To set up an orbital blockade and bombardment of Caldari Prime to force a quick resolution to the conflict. How did the Caldari respond? By slaughtering 200 million civilians on Gallente Prime and blaming us for the situation.

Raphael Ordo wrote:
And in the case of the Admiral, I feel that we can no longer discuss weither his actions were either good nor bad.
We are different people. Different races. Different humans.
Í do not expect you to even try to understand our way of thinking. Nor will you. Not here.. And not on the coming cosmic battlefield.


You make presumptions of my character in ignorance. I have demonstrated an attempt to understand your people and your way of thinking and I have asked questions and sought answers. You have offered assumptions and opinions to justify the events of history. Your "way of thinking" does not excuse the whole scale slaughter of millions of civilian lives over "cultural differences."
Andreus Ixiris
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#23 - 2012-05-17 12:53:25 UTC
These conversations are unconstructive and generally only lead to more bitterness. Let us simply agree that there was much wrong done to both sides by both sides.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#24 - 2012-05-17 13:45:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lialus Raithe
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
These conversations are unconstructive and generally only lead to more bitterness. Let us simply agree that there was much wrong done to both sides by both sides.


I realize I didn't make this clear, that is my overall viewpoint and I'd be happy to settle on it.
Princess Nexxala
Zero Syndicate
#25 - 2012-05-17 14:55:41 UTC
I was wondering what the smell was coming from that part of the station.


Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
Nennamailan Cracksmack. I make it in station from reactor coolant, strontium clathrates and rocket propellant. You wanna buy some?

nom nom
Raphael Ordo
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#26 - 2012-05-18 08:09:16 UTC
Lialus Raithe wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
These conversations are unconstructive and generally only lead to more bitterness. Let us simply agree that there was much wrong done to both sides by both sides.


I realize I didn't make this clear, that is my overall viewpoint and I'd be happy to settle on it.


It's settled, Gallente.
Lialus Raithe
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-05-18 10:16:33 UTC
Raphael Ordo wrote:
Lialus Raithe wrote:
Andreus Ixiris wrote:
These conversations are unconstructive and generally only lead to more bitterness. Let us simply agree that there was much wrong done to both sides by both sides.


I realize I didn't make this clear, that is my overall viewpoint and I'd be happy to settle on it.


It's settled, Gallente.


Perhaps on your next leave from duty, we'll share a drink. I promise, it won't be Quafe.
Leto Aramaus
Frog Team Four
Of Essence
#28 - 2012-05-18 16:22:26 UTC
Perhaps it's because I simply don't keep myself updated on the news of the war, but I'm a little curious as to if these statements about the Caldari Militia falling have any truth to them...

The only data I have ever seen on the war, indicated that the State Militia was winning, and always has been.

http://fwstats.eve-ic.net/

This is the only data I've had access to, and I'm not exactly sure what to make of it.

Now it seems, and has always seemed since the start of the war, that the State has been mostly victorious in terms of occupancy and territory conquering. While my Gallentean brothers have (naturally) always seemed to be destroying more enemy ships than the Caldari (always with far fewer enrolled pilots as well), I had always thought the Caldari's sheer numbers, albeit poorly trained and equipped, and pure dedication to the territorial objectives of this war (rather than the actual fighting of enemy fleets), was allowing the State to maintain dominance over the disputed systems.

Can anyone update me on the true state of the war?

The UI update we deserve
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#29 - 2012-05-18 16:33:17 UTC
Leto Aramaus wrote:
Perhaps it's because I simply don't keep myself updated on the news of the war, but I'm a little curious as to if these statements about the Caldari Militia falling have any truth to them...

The only data I have ever seen on the war, indicated that the State Militia was winning, and always has been.

http://fwstats.eve-ic.net/

This is the only data I've had access to, and I'm not exactly sure what to make of it.

Now it seems, and has always seemed since the start of the war, that the State has been mostly victorious in terms of occupancy and territory conquering. While my Gallentean brothers have (naturally) always seemed to be destroying more enemy ships than the Caldari (always with far fewer enrolled pilots as well), I had always thought the Caldari's sheer numbers, albeit poorly trained and equipped, and pure dedication to the territorial objectives of this war (rather than the actual fighting of enemy fleets), was allowing the State to maintain dominance over the disputed systems.

Can anyone update me on the true state of the war?


Check the text at the bottom of the page, pilot.

That data's nearly three years old.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Leto Aramaus
Frog Team Four
Of Essence
#30 - 2012-05-18 17:00:00 UTC
Hah, well is it just a coincidence that it stopped updating 3 years ago on the same date as today? 5/18, that's funny.

So anyways, is there somewhere I can view the CURRENT status of the war?

The UI update we deserve
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#31 - 2012-05-18 17:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Morwen Lagann
Leto Aramaus wrote:
Hah, well is it just a coincidence that it stopped updating 3 years ago on the same date as today? 5/18, that's funny.

So anyways, is there somewhere I can view the CURRENT status of the war?


... Today's the 18th of May, not the 12th of October. Just saying.

Your best bet for something resembling up-to-date information is going to be the filters that your neocom offers for the starmap. Not the best tool in the world, but unless you've got the contacts to give you information straight from the horse's mouth (so to speak), you're going to be stuck with it.

EDIT - Okay, looking over the numbers again, it's possible that the line graphs at the top and bottom of the page are up to date. However, the twelve tables of numbers? No. All of those (maybe save the last row) are three years old.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Leto Aramaus
Frog Team Four
Of Essence
#32 - 2012-05-18 17:17:21 UTC
Yea... I see that "last updated october 2009" down there, but if you look at the graphs at the top, they are reading 18/05 and back. Correct me if I'm wrong, but May is 05, and today is the 18th.

The UI update we deserve
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#33 - 2012-05-18 20:13:05 UTC
And so begins the argument of whether it's day/month or month/day. Different planets seem to do it different ways around.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#34 - 2012-05-18 20:30:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Deen Wispa
Lialus Raithe wrote:
Fleet Warpsujarento wrote:
I'm proud to be a Caldari. Just in a different way to you. I don't care so much about our military or political successes because conventional success just isn't an important part of being Caldari any more. What I care about is how efficiently we can make money for ourselves. We're not the great power we used to be, and I think we need to accept that. We can find pride in our lesser achievements instead.


You have some audacity to call yourself Caldari with an outlook like that.

I may be a Gallente and I may be an enemy to the Caldari as far as military operations and standpoints are concerned, and there's a history of bad blood between our people, but I can respect the convictions and culture of my enemies. You are a member of the State Protectorate, a Capsuleer militia waging a "proxy" war on behalf of the Caldari State and its people. Yet your attitude and your complete disregard for the state of existence of the Caldari people is a disgrace beyond words.

What happened? Because you started losing space in the contested systems, you decided to throw your hands up and surrender? Because you're suffering a few defeats, you're suddenly no longer a major power in the cluster? Need I remind you of the suffering and uncertainty suffered by the Intaki during the military occupation of their homeworld and the events leading up to it? Do I need to remind you of the crushing defeats the Federation endured in the history of our two nations' conflicts? Yet we are still here, we are still independent and fighting, we are still strong!

Your attitude disgusts me. I may be an enemy to the Caldari State, but I can respect its resolve. I can respect its people and their sense of duty and honor. Our collective histories are rife with atrocities and vile acts but the day we bow down and surrender the will to fight for whom we are is the day we lose ourselves to the halls of history.

For the sake of the Caldari people, despite our differences, I hope there are no more like you in their military ranks.



The funny part about this entire thread is that Lialus Raithe is being heavily trolled by Fleet Warpsujarento except he doesn't know it. lol

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Sylux Raynes
Doomheim
#35 - 2012-05-19 03:00:08 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:


The funny part about this entire thread is that Lialus Raithe is being heavily trolled by Fleet Warpsujarento except he doesn't know it. lol


Considering the initial remarks were made to a Caldari and the Gallente decided to interject, I would say that you're assessment of the entire thread is lacking in clarity.

Deen Wispa
Sheriff.
Caldari Tactical Operations Command
#36 - 2012-05-20 17:20:27 UTC
Sylux Raynes wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:


The funny part about this entire thread is that Lialus Raithe is being heavily trolled by Fleet Warpsujarento except he doesn't know it. lol


Considering the initial remarks were made to a Caldari and the Gallente decided to interject, I would say that you're assessment of the entire thread is lacking in clarity.



It's more likely you are ignorant and don't understand the inside joke with Fleetwarp but that's okay :)

High Five. Yeah! C'est La Eve .
Sylux Raynes
Doomheim
#37 - 2012-05-20 17:36:09 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:
Sylux Raynes wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:


The funny part about this entire thread is that Lialus Raithe is being heavily trolled by Fleet Warpsujarento except he doesn't know it. lol


Considering the initial remarks were made to a Caldari and the Gallente decided to interject, I would say that you're assessment of the entire thread is lacking in clarity.



It's more likely you are ignorant and don't understand the inside joke with Fleetwarp but that's okay :)


That is entirely likely.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#38 - 2012-06-19 22:09:32 UTC
I participated in a taste test the last time I went to Jita. They gave me a little drink in a plastic cup and asked me a bunch of questions and had me rate it based on a bunch of criteria.

It tasted like creamy coconut with maybe a bit of pear mixed in.

Afterwards, my tongue went numb for about an hour. Strange.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
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