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NPC corps should not be safe havens for players

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FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#221 - 2012-06-19 15:53:42 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Mara Rinn wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness.


Fairness? LOL

CCP Soundwave has already stated that EVE isn't supposed to be fair. You are either in a large nullsec corp or you quit the game at this point.

Too right! We should introduce some kind of mechanic that would hurt large null sec corps!

I know! Lets remove their ability to use NPC hauler alts! Wow full circle!

I'm not entirely sure why I tried writing an entire post with exclamation marks, but all said and done I'm happy with the results.


So simply ban alts. There a simple solution, NPC corps are allowed for new and casual players and it still eliminates the actual problem.

Of course this would MASSIVELY cut into CCP's profit margin.... just like the original stupid suggestion.

People really need to understand that CCP is trying to attract the largest number of players, and to do that they have to balance some rather extreme expectations and demands. Which in itself shows off CCP's masterful balancing act that they do on a daily basis. Most other MMO's give you different servers to enjoy while CCP made it a massive sandbox. So let us all enjoy Eve the way Eve is and not make it one ridicules extreme.

!!!PURE SARCASM!!!
But if we have to make it one extreme, let it be mass nudity in all its internet deprivation to give new players and kids a creepy look into the filth that is on the internet.
!!!END OF PURE SARCASM!!!
Ohanka
#222 - 2012-06-19 15:54:26 UTC
Waah Waaah Waaah.

I don't want to be concorded for griefing.

North Korea is Best Korea
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#223 - 2012-06-19 15:58:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
FireT wrote:

So simply ban alts. There a simple solution

It is much simpler and less limiting to players to just ban NPC corps.
BTW: NPC corps don't protect new players, they merely disincentivize players of all ages from working together in a player-run corp.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#224 - 2012-06-19 16:04:15 UTC
FireT wrote:


So simply ban alts. There a simple solution, NPC corps are allowed for new and casual players and it still eliminates the actual problem.


Wouldn't work, people would use additional accounts instead of alts, which amount to much the same thing. There's not really any viable way to tell when several accounts belong to the same person.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#225 - 2012-06-19 16:16:14 UTC
FireT wrote:
So simply ban alts. There a simple solution, NPC corps are allowed for new and casual players and it still eliminates the actual problem.

Of course this would MASSIVELY cut into CCP's profit margin.... just like the original stupid suggestion.

People really need to understand that CCP is trying to attract the largest number of players, and to do that they have to balance some rather extreme expectations and demands. Which in itself shows off CCP's masterful balancing act that they do on a daily basis. Most other MMO's give you different servers to enjoy while CCP made it a massive sandbox. So let us all enjoy Eve the way Eve is and not make it one ridicules extreme.

The problem is that NPC corps, especially in the uses that me, Nicolo and others have been highlighting, are not used by "new" or "casual" players.

When you see a three year old NPC corp pilot in a JF, carrying *just* under the amount that would render it profitable to suicide gank, chances are that this is not a casual or new player. Instead it is an alt of an older, more experienced player who is hiding behind concord in order to evade any interference with their particular play style.

I should know, I abuse the crap out of the NPC system myself all the time. Look at some of the characters in this corp and see how often we have corp hopped in the past to avoid decs.

The fact is that if it is even remotely feasible to remove these arbitrary loop holes and protections for older players, whilst retaining protection for genuine new players, then it should be done. The question isn't whether or not it should be done, but whether or not it can be done. And if so, how?

Personally I'd introduce something crazy like suspect flags for NPC corp players over a certain age. Six months old and still in an NPC corp? Good luck making the Jita run with a JF full of technetium. Of course in order for this to have any real effect corp hopping and war dec evasion would also need to be looked at, but that's another issue entirely.

(Personally I liked the idea CCP had of war decs following people around, but unfortunately that is far too open to abuse.)

FireT wrote:
!!!PURE SARCASM!!!
But if we have to make it one extreme, let it be mass nudity in all its internet deprivation to give new players and kids a creepy look into the filth that is on the internet.
!!!END OF PURE SARCASM!!!

One of my alts was recently banned for attempting to introduce this particular element of internet culture to Jita local.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Ayame Tao
#226 - 2012-06-19 16:17:59 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
As usual you people get it wrong.

The correct approach is to teach people to WANT to PvP, not to make game mechanics grab them by the nutsacks and hold them steady while you melt them in RR + Falcon + T3 PvP ships.


This...

Stop trying to twist the game to your continued agenda of ganking clueless soft targets in hi-sec.

NPC corps got you down? You know Neutral RR, non-wardec and all those problems go away outside of hi-sec right?

Just because lo-sec and null-sec are empty of people for you to shoot at (especially ones that don't shoot back) or are the primary living space of the enourmous blue-friends-circle-jerk of love.

Sorry... does the elite PvP community need a wahmbulance? Has ti truly come to the last option left for shooting something to invade hi-sec and pick targets so soft you can kill them solo ina destroyer?

Fearsome.


Besides, until the war-dec system is comletely overhauled and fixed to stop shedding, shielding, dogpiling and all the other crap, it's pretty much useless.


NPC corps pretty much provide the only protection for casual PvE players, who - whether you like it or not - just want to run some missions or do mining and largely pays the frikkin bills around here. You may hate them, you may wish to kill them (and you can) your combat prowess may just barely extend to fighting a wet webbed Retreiver (you scary pirate... ooooh) but that's not the game's problem.

Know thyself...
Noriko Satomi
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#227 - 2012-06-19 16:43:47 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Alexa Coates wrote:
Jesus christ, stop trying to MAKE people fight you. Go shoot some other miners you freaks.


This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fairness.

Newbies should be protected to a point yes, but players who can affect the game in any way AFTER a newbie period (as in my other post, I suggest 6 months) should be liable to experience the negative aspects of the game in full. One of those negative aspects is being involved in a war. [[spelling corrected]]

That's ridiculous. It's completely fair. You can go back to an NPC corp any time you want.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#228 - 2012-06-19 17:00:11 UTC
Donte wrote:
EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe".

So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?

Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it.

I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps.

Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Twisted

Thoughts?


NPC corps =/= Noob corps. they're different entities. NPC corps can only be entered after a player leaves a player corporation.



Children, please think your suggestions through before making them:

NPC corps of this type exist for three reasons:

a) to hold toons between corps (disband, thrown out etc)

b) people who are parking their toon because they are not going to use it and the last corp have rules on activity

c) trading/mining/hauling/mining alts

Everyone else hides in their own small toonfarm vanity corp, which if wardec, would be easily parked and has zero tax. Or, go and hide in eve uni or some other large low tax/zero tax corp/alliance with decent defensive capabilities or good CTA station camping rules.

So your "solution" is in search of a problem.

It also has a bigger problem. Most NPC corp members are alts of experienced players with corps that can surely kick your ass. If this were to be enabled, in less than a month no one would wardec NPC corps for fear of retribution. I mean, imaging you wardec, shoot down a freighter full of moon goo. And it belongs, say, to the Goons.

Your corp is ******.

So yeah, sounds like a good idea, until it doesn't.

Please google "law of unintended consequences"...
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#229 - 2012-06-19 17:05:39 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Children, please think your suggestions through before making them:

NPC corps of this type exist for three reasons:

a) to hold toons between corps (disband, thrown out etc)

b) people who are parking their toon because they are not going to use it and the last corp have rules on activity

c) trading/mining/hauling/mining alts

Everyone else hides in their own small toonfarm vanity corp, which if wardec, would be easily parked and has zero tax. Or, go and hide in eve uni or some other large low tax/zero tax corp/alliance with decent defensive capabilities or good CTA station camping rules.

So your "solution" is in search of a problem.

It also has a bigger problem. Most NPC corp members are alts of experienced players with corps that can surely kick your ass. If this were to be enabled, in less than a month no one would wardec NPC corps for fear of retribution. I mean, imaging you wardec, shoot down a freighter full of moon goo. And it belongs, say, to the Goons.

Your corp is ******.

So yeah, sounds like a good idea, until it doesn't.

Please google "law of unintended consequences"...

If you bothered to read the thread, instead of skipping to the last page for defensive rage posting, you'd realise that the OP's views are not those shared by the majority of players.

We recognise the need for genuine newbie protection, and as Nicolo has pointed out on multiple occasions the current system raises their profile as targets whilst allowing us older, more experienced players some very questionable mechanics to hide behind.

We also recognise that war dec mechanics are in need of a serious revamp. They have been a complete joke for as long as I can remember.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#230 - 2012-06-19 17:08:30 UTC
Ayame Tao wrote:

Besides, until the war-dec system is comletely overhauled and fixed to stop shedding, shielding, dogpiling and all the other crap, it's pretty much useless.


Preeeetyyyyy muuuuuch...

It started about the dogpile, but I put something on those lines here:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=122238

The problem I see in all of these discussions is that all kinds of whiners dominate it.

Nullsecers whining about carebears, carebears whining about gankers, gankers whining about concord...

Nah bros and bras, the game is ok and playable. The wardec system, however, is broken and has always been broken.

Rather than being a way for merc to develop a business and for consensual pew pew in hisec, its barely workable for anyone - super easy to exploit (for both sides) ridiculously cheap to use (hence misuse) and completely unconnected to other mechanics in the game.

If you took wardecs out completely and eliminated sec status in low sec, there would be more pew pew in the game than with the broken system in place...
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#231 - 2012-06-19 17:20:32 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

If you bothered to read the thread, instead of skipping to the last page for defensive rage posting, you'd realise that the OP's views are not those shared by the majority of players.

We recognise the need for genuine newbie protection, and as Nicolo has pointed out on multiple occasions the current system raises their profile as targets whilst allowing us older, more experienced players some very questionable mechanics to hide behind.

We also recognise that war dec mechanics are in need of a serious revamp. They have been a complete joke for as long as I can remember.



I dare you to find me a single experienced player that hides his or her main in an NPC corp. It simply doesn't happen.

Any experience carebear is either hiding in a vanity corp or in a well established freelancer/educational corp. That is just how it rolls.

The issue that has some mad, as highlighted by your linked posting (Which I had already read) is the Jumpfreighters with just under the gankable amount.

That is not hiding. That is precisely my purpose #3. Those are alts. You want to hit the player, hit their main.

Let me give an example of my point, because apparently you lack reading comprehension:

1) Wardec on NPC corps is opened

2) You go and wardec it

3) You do a zero consequence kill of the "hiding" Jump Freighter you wanted to gank but couldnt because it was not profirable to do so without a wardec.

4) That is an alt

5) The main of that alt is in some very powerful, very elite, PVP corp.

6) They wardec your puny hisec "merc" corp

7) You ragequit eve because you undock, you die - and YOU CANNOT PLAY ALTS BECAUSE THERE IS NO NPC CORP TO PARK THEM AT

As I said, google "law of unintended consequences", and be done, sir.

Also, when did you poll all of the users of EVE to claim that the majority support a given view. Not even the CSM can claim to represent the majority of players, judging by the vote totals (unless, of course, CCP lies on the user base numbers). So yeah, 0/10 on getting your undies all in a bunch...
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#232 - 2012-06-19 17:26:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:

Let me give an example of my point, because apparently you lack reading comprehension:

1) Wardec on NPC corps is opened

Claims others lack reading comprehension, writes a whole page under the premise that Simi was talking about making NPC corps deccable instead of just removing them altogether.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#233 - 2012-06-19 17:34:59 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
I dare you to find me a single experienced player that hides his or her main in an NPC corp. It simply doesn't happen.

Any experience carebear is either hiding in a vanity corp or in a well established freelancer/educational corp. That is just how it rolls.

I've dropped my main down into an NPC corp plenty of times for hauling stuff through high sec, it is a very common practice. And as I said the war dec system also needs fixing.

I also know a lot of null sec players who use alts to mine in high sec, and operate in small corps that will drop into NPC corps if war is declared.

Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
The issue that has some mad, as highlighted by your linked posting (Which I had already read) is the Jumpfreighters with just under the gankable amount.

That is not hiding. That is precisely my purpose #3. Those are alts. You want to hit the player, hit their main.

Let me give an example of my point, because apparently you lack reading comprehension:

1) Wardec on NPC corps is opened

2) You go and wardec it

3) You do a zero consequence kill of the "hiding" Jump Freighter you wanted to gank but couldnt because it was not profirable to do so without a wardec.

4) That is an alt

5) The main of that alt is in some very powerful, very elite, PVP corp.

6) They wardec your puny hisec "merc" corp

7) You ragequit eve because you undock, you die - and YOU CANNOT PLAY ALTS BECAUSE THERE IS NO NPC CORP TO PARK THEM AT

As I said, google "law of unintended consequences", and be done, sir.

The law of unintended consequences doesn't really seem to have any relevance. The only consequences of fixing war dec evasion and NPC corp hauling/mining would be that players like myself would no longer be truly safe in high sec.

As for your example, that simply doesn't make sense. For one thing, I highlighted in my own post that most of us don't want to be able to war dec NPC corps, for another I am not in a puny high sec "merc" corp. And even if I were, why should I be allowed to "play alts" in order to escape the repercussions of my actions?

For point number 3, how is it a zero consequence kill? Why does it even matter if it is a "zero consequence" kill? What even is a zero consequence kill?! If you declare war, scout out a target and then catch them in a jump freighter then congratulations.

Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Also, when did you poll all of the users of EVE to claim that the majority support a given view. Not even the CSM can claim to represent the majority of players, judging by the vote totals (unless, of course, CCP lies on the user base numbers). So yeah, 0/10 on getting your undies all in a bunch...

My point was that the majority do not agree with the OP. Read the thread and you'd realise that.

All in all you seem like a very young, and very angry, player. I recommend just calming down, realising that this is just a game, and then taking a fresh look at mechanics like these. Realising that this is a sandbox PvP MMO game may help too.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#234 - 2012-06-19 17:41:31 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
I've dropped my main down into an NPC corp plenty of times for hauling stuff through high sec, it is a very common practice.

Good job :)

I assume you also make sure to not have too much "isk value of cargo": "gank cost" ratio.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#235 - 2012-06-19 17:47:44 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
I've dropped my main down into an NPC corp plenty of times for hauling stuff through high sec, it is a very common practice.

Good job :)

I assume you also make sure to not have too much "isk value of cargo": "gank cost" ratio.

Actually I always use a T2 transport. I only really move deadspace modules so it's pretty low volume anyway.

One of these days however I am probably going to get decloaked by a shuttle and hate myself for it.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#236 - 2012-06-19 17:52:18 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
The problem is that NPC corps, especially in the uses that me, Nicolo and others have been highlighting, are not used by "new" or "casual" players.

When you see a three year old NPC corp pilot in a JF, carrying *just* under the amount that would render it profitable to suicide gank, chances are that this is not a casual or new player. Instead it is an alt of an older, more experienced player who is hiding behind concord in order to evade any interference with their particular play style.

I should know, I abuse the crap out of the NPC system myself all the time. Look at some of the characters in this corp and see how often we have corp hopped in the past to avoid decs.

The fact is that if it is even remotely feasible to remove these arbitrary loop holes and protections for older players, whilst retaining protection for genuine new players, then it should be done. The question isn't whether or not it should be done, but whether or not it can be done. And if so, how?

Personally I'd introduce something crazy like suspect flags for NPC corp players over a certain age. Six months old and still in an NPC corp? Good luck making the Jita run with a JF full of technetium. Of course in order for this to have any real effect corp hopping and war dec evasion would also need to be looked at, but that's another issue entirely.

(Personally I liked the idea CCP had of war decs following people around, but unfortunately that is far too open to abuse.)


trimmed a bit,

but,

your "something crazy" really isn't all that crazy, though it should be actions-based, not time-based. Running frieght to/from systems where the SOV holder is at war? You should start building up sec-status-like values of association with that entity based on the value of the goods you import (i.e. sell, trade/contract, or you jettison and someone "affiliated" picks up) that eventually makes you a legal target for the other side of the war. Playing both sides just gets you in trouble with both sides- you never get to shoot first. Trading with people who have accumulated these "standings" will have the same effect. Donating ISK and taking contracts would also get you dinged. There'd be a fair few loopholes to sort out (or decide were enough of a fuss they'd be the new "price of being a black market") and would drive some of the devs nuts (as it would be a TON of data to sift through), but it mitigates a lot of what sounds like the truly valid issue with the NPC corps (the "hisec alts" shenanigans). Sure, you can move goods to just outside of where you'd start having these issues, but that's still making the exchange a bit more risky (as it doesn't happen behind SOV infrastructure). The same mechanic could apply to consistent dealings with alliances/corporations (probably *on top of* any SOV-related influence), as the point is to create consequences for deliberate interference/noncombatant participation in wars. Every downtime a little of your "collaborator" status would wear off, but if you become a target this would cease until you go a week without accruing more (probably on a per-faction basis).

All of this would, of course, need to be pointed out in the NPE, and come with a new slate of warnings whenever you were at risk of becoming a target. It would apply to *all* NPC corps, with new players getting only a fraction of the hit at first, increasing to "full" over the first 4-6 weeks of the account's activity (*not* per-character). Account recycling becomes similar to current alt-recycling proscriptions. Not having to deal with automatic exposure as a dirty supplier of *insert favorite bad people here* would become one of the benefits of forming a corp. Also, market sales would have to be factored in *somehow* but in a way that still allows players to conduct business- perhaps orders can be marked as "peaceful" and won't be available to people who would change your standings (likewise, a filter so you don't buy from/sell to orders that would affect you, or better yet allows you to set a threshold). This would fracture the market, which *may* be a disaster, but *may* work out as it means people who want to use all the really fancy stuff probably have to take a little extra risk and be careful just how much high-tech they buy, and you have to choose between selling to the first buyer who comes along or passing up the (presumably) better prices so you can stay out of the political messes.

One thing that should *not* happen is the expansion of corporate warfare to become individual warfare- the notion that people are "immune" to wardecs is mistaken. Wars are not about killing players (that's what bounties and killrights and such are supposed to be for... admittedly, there are issues with that such as "bounties are broken"), they're about corporations exerting influence over each other. No, EVE should not be safe, but the answer to one excessively-used way to avoid a mechanic shouldn't be to (further) screw up that mechanic and make it universal.
ISD Stensson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2012-06-19 17:53:35 UTC
Thread moved from "EVE General Discussion" to "Features & Ideas Discussion" forum.

[b]ISD Stensson Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department[/b]
FireT
Venom Pointe Industries
#238 - 2012-06-19 17:54:34 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
FireT wrote:

So simply ban alts. There a simple solution

It is much simpler and less limiting to players to just ban NPC corps.
BTW: NPC corps don't protect new players, they merely disincentivize players of all ages from working together in a player-run corp.




Delen Ormand wrote:
FireT wrote:


So simply ban alts. There a simple solution, NPC corps are allowed for new and casual players and it still eliminates the actual problem.


Wouldn't work, people would use additional accounts instead of alts, which amount to much the same thing. There's not really any viable way to tell when several accounts belong to the same person.



Actually there is, and the solution is as absurd as your request: CCP just has to enforce passport ideas with each account. That simple.
Absurd? Yes!
Waste of CCPs time and money? Absolutely!
Scaring away players? Exactly as your own ideas!

Exclamation marks for WIN!
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#239 - 2012-06-19 17:57:03 UTC
FireT wrote:
Actually there is, and the solution is as absurd as your request: CCP just has to enforce passport ideas with each account. That simple.
Absurd? Yes!
Waste of CCPs time and money? Absolutely!
Scaring away players? Exactly as your own ideas!

Exclamation marks for WIN!

Only I am allowed to sarcastically over-use exclamation marks and look cool doing it.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#240 - 2012-06-19 18:29:18 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:


All in all you seem like a very young, and very angry, player. I recommend just calming down, realising that this is just a game, and then taking a fresh look at mechanics like these. Realising that this is a sandbox PvP MMO game may help too.


Wrong on all these assumptions. I am probably older than you. I also understand this is a sandbox PvP MMO. And that it is game.

However, lets refocus:

1) It was not clear that you were referring to the players in this thread in the posting I replied to. So, I accept the clarification, and yes, it seems so.

2) I was replying to the OP, yet, in your reply to me, you seem to invalidate my contribution mostly on the basis of "ignoring" the rest of the postings. While it is true I chose to refocus on the OP, are your thread police? Because if you are, what is the bribe? Forum donuts?

3) Hence, my response was not to your (and others) idea to do away with NPC corps, but the OP idea that it be wardec.

4) In that sense, all my other comments are not directed at you, personally, but using the rhetorical "you". A device that someone in possession of the maturity and language skills you presume to have certainly would be well acquainted with.

5) Lets be realistic and be clear: NPC corps cannot disappear. As I explained in my points, they play a specific, non-gameplay related role. Asking for their elimination is like asking for the Doomheim corp to be eliminated. That cannot happen without an entire rewrite of the character handling code of Eve. Good luck with that. We can ask for a tweaking of the mechanic, however. For example, wardecs against NPC corps, while I would oppose it, its entirely within the realm of possibility.

6) As to your specific example of jumping your main into an NPC corp, did you do it for long enough for a Wardec to happen? In other words, play your main for extended periods of time in an NPC corp? I highly doubt it.

7) It is sheer paranoia that experienced, worthy-of-being-attacked, players hide in NPC corps. They are used for alts.

8) But lets say they are. Again law of unintended consequences: all that will happen is people will setup extensive blue standing networks of one toon corps. You cannot possibly find and war all of them. And if you did, an experienced player would have a number of accounts with similarly trained toons for such purposes. War is denied.

The reality is, if people want to turn hisec into null sec, then ask for that. Campaign for that. But all of these "solutions" are simply not solving any problems, at least not any that cannot be resolved in other manners that are less labor intensive and less prone to extra exploits. 
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.