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Am I missing something with this Armageddon?

Author
Niall R
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1 - 2012-06-19 12:17:36 UTC
So I was running some L4s with a friend last night, eager to try this fitting out and, bluntly put, It sucked.
I normally roll with an Navy Apoc with basically the same fitting, but I decided to just have this ship in Heimatar for my friend's missions and keep that in The Citadel for mine.

Is there anything glaringly wrong that I'm doing here? I'd have thought that I'd have spotted something like that, but as I said, this thing was like throwing rocks at the rats.

Quote:
[Armageddon]

Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Large Armor Repairer II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
[Empty High slot]

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hammerhead II x5


Stats:
840 DPS
679 DPS tank against Sansha
Stable for 3m 11s
Any other stats you want, just ask.

My Napoc's fit follows
Quote:

[Apocalypse Navy Issue]
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Heat Sink II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Centus C-Type Large Armor Repairer

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I


Hammerhead II x5


Stats for this:
742 DPS
912 DPS Tank against Sansha
Stable for 8m 30s

Obviously the Napoc will perform better, it's a faction ship, but the difference in performance is too great to ignore. I thought the issue might be with tracking, but the Napoc has no bonus to tracking that I'm aware of, so me hitting for 1k every shot w/ scorch with that and then for 500 with the geddon makes no sense.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-06-19 12:21:38 UTC
NPC's have tank too, and angles in particular are strong against EM/therm

You are hitting for way more on sanshas because you are hitting their resistance holes.
Niall R
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-06-19 12:24:55 UTC
Onictus wrote:
NPC's have tank too, and angles in particular are strong against EM/therm

You are hitting for way more on sanshas because you are hitting their resistance holes.


Of course, but I do get angel missions with the Napoc, and have no isue whatsoever. The Napoc has an extra gun, so naturally it will hit for more per shot, but I'd still expect to be able to finish a mission solo in the geddon.
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#4 - 2012-06-19 12:30:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jacob Holland
First, most obvious and therefore hopefully least likely consideration...
The Nav'poc of course has the range bonus while the 'geddon doesn't. If you're used to engaging targets at 50km with the Nav'poc and try the same with the 'geddon you'll suffer a significant loss of DPS (and volley) through falloff.

More likely (though given mission rats have set orbits, still not all that likely) is that the range bonus on the Nav'poc enables you to engage further out and therefore tracking has less of an impact on the Nav'poc (rather than the Nav'poc having better tracking).

Of course the 'geddon has fewer turrets (so the volley will be lower despite the ROF bonus and huge drone bay which should yield higher DPS) but that certainly shouldn't be sufficient to cut your volley in half.

Edit:
Noting your reply, the 'geddon will suffer far more significantly with cap issues due to its smaller cap and higher gun drain, in terms of finishing missions solo that will certainly make it feel a lot more difficult, though again it shouldn't hurt your damage so much assuming equivalent resists...etc.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-06-19 12:31:17 UTC
Niall R wrote:
Onictus wrote:
NPC's have tank too, and angles in particular are strong against EM/therm

You are hitting for way more on sanshas because you are hitting their resistance holes.


Of course, but I do get angel missions with the Napoc, and have no isue whatsoever. The Napoc has an extra gun, so naturally it will hit for more per shot, but I'd still expect to be able to finish a mission solo in the geddon.



Over tanked, and under droned then.

I have crap amarr skills and worse laser skills I sail through level fours with a geddon, its not quite as fast as my NDomi and neither holds a candle to a mach, but shouldn't be an issue.

Try using sentries (or heavies II if its gated) and see how that works out.

I can out DPS a Mael with BS 5 and T2 ACs with a geddon BS3 and t1 pulses and 5 sentry IIs.
Niall R
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-06-19 12:32:31 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
First, most obvious and therefore hopefully least likely consideration...
The Nav'poc of course has the range bonus while the 'geddon doesn't. If you're used to engaging targets at 50km with the Nav'poc and try the same with the 'geddon you'll suffer a significant loss of DPS (and volley) through falloff.

More likely (though given mission rats have set orbits, still not all that likely) is that the range bonus on the Nav'poc enables you to engage further out and therefore tracking has less of an impact on the Nav'poc (rather than the Nav'poc having better tracking).

Of course the 'geddon has fewer turrets (so the volley will be lower despite the ROF bonus and huge drone bay which should yield higher DPS) but that certainly shouldn't be sufficient to cut your volley in half.



At the very least, it works as a support ship, which is all it was ever intended to be.
Kasutra
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#7 - 2012-06-19 12:33:17 UTC
Niall R wrote:
So I was running some L4s with a friend last night, eager to try this fitting out and, bluntly put, It sucked.
I normally roll with an Navy Apoc with basically the same fitting, but I decided to just have this ship in Heimatar for my friend's missions and keep that in The Citadel for mine.

Is there anything glaringly wrong that I'm doing here? I'd have thought that I'd have spotted something like that, but as I said, this thing was like throwing rocks at the rats.

Next time do try throwing rocks, kinetic works fine against Angels.






(Also, what Jacob said.)
Niall R
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-06-19 12:33:58 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Niall R wrote:
Onictus wrote:
NPC's have tank too, and angles in particular are strong against EM/therm

You are hitting for way more on sanshas because you are hitting their resistance holes.


Of course, but I do get angel missions with the Napoc, and have no isue whatsoever. The Napoc has an extra gun, so naturally it will hit for more per shot, but I'd still expect to be able to finish a mission solo in the geddon.



Over tanked, and under droned then.

I have crap amarr skills and worse laser skills I sail through level fours with a geddon, its not quite as fast as my NDomi and neither holds a candle to a mach, but shouldn't be an issue.

Try using sentries (or heavies II if its gated) and see how that works out.

I can out DPS a Mael with BS 5 and T2 ACs with a geddon BS3 and t1 pulses and 5 sentry IIs.


I'll try that, thanks.

Given my 5M sp in gunnery and damn near perfect (battleship) support skills, I think the drones must be the issue.
Feyrin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-06-19 12:35:59 UTC
The Armageddon has a 125 drone bandwidth you are not using it hence you dps looks low. Try looking at the stats with 5 garde 2 out. Btw the Armageddon navy is much better because it has extra drone bay you can carry lights and sentries. The standard Armageddon tends to be used in PvP as a balls to the wall ganker with 5 heavies.
Onictus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-06-19 14:20:00 UTC
Niall R wrote:
Jacob Holland wrote:
First, most obvious and therefore hopefully least likely consideration...
The Nav'poc of course has the range bonus while the 'geddon doesn't. If you're used to engaging targets at 50km with the Nav'poc and try the same with the 'geddon you'll suffer a significant loss of DPS (and volley) through falloff.

More likely (though given mission rats have set orbits, still not all that likely) is that the range bonus on the Nav'poc enables you to engage further out and therefore tracking has less of an impact on the Nav'poc (rather than the Nav'poc having better tracking).

Of course the 'geddon has fewer turrets (so the volley will be lower despite the ROF bonus and huge drone bay which should yield higher DPS) but that certainly shouldn't be sufficient to cut your volley in half.



At the very least, it works as a support ship, which is all it was ever intended to be.


For reference its pretty good for shaving dickstars and camping dudes in station while you reinforce it.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2012-06-19 15:24:21 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
[Armageddon Navy Issue, Carebear]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Garde II x5
Hammerhead II x5

1.3k dps, 40km with Imp multi
1.1k dps, 80km with Scorch

Navy geddon cost roughly 50 mil more than Abaddon.

Apoc is a noob boat, performance doesn't even come close. There are the Apoc and Raven, and then there are the N.Geddon and Nightmare.
Feyrin
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2012-06-19 17:40:55 UTC
And then there is the 1300DPS shield fit rail domi, but lets not get into that Big smile
Mazzy Star
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2012-06-19 18:51:50 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
[Armageddon Navy Issue, Carebear]
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Imperial Navy Heat Sink
Armor EM Hardener II
Armor Thermic Hardener II
Imperial Navy Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Imperial Navy Large Armor Repairer

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range Script
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800

Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L
Mega Pulse Laser II, Scorch L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Garde II x5
Hammerhead II x5

1.3k dps, 40km with Imp multi
1.1k dps, 80km with Scorch

Navy geddon cost roughly 50 mil more than Abaddon.

Apoc is a noob boat, performance doesn't even come close. There are the Apoc and Raven, and then there are the N.Geddon and Nightmare.


Just an FYI - your numbers are way off. That fit does 1265 dps at 20km, although scorch does give you a nice 64km optimal (certainly not 80km though). The tank is paper thin, although I suspect it's sufficient for most missions. I would also say that mixing CCC rigs and cap boosters is also a no-no.
IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#14 - 2012-06-19 21:08:20 UTC
Niall R wrote:
Said things about the Navy Geddon.


@OP - it took me losing a pair of well fit max skilled Navy Geddons; one to mis timed aggro (damn drones) one to scrams (damn Gallente) before I got wise to the fact that as good a boat as the Navy Geddon is its bonuses don't lend itself to solo L4 missions easily. The Navy Apoc is a much better mission boat than the Navy Geddon is becuase of its bonuses, cap, and PG. In many ways its just like how the t1 Apoc is superior to the t1 Geddon. Also there is a big difference between Paper DPS and applied DPS and in PVE situations the Navy Apoc puts out more applied DPS than the Navy Geddon does.

However, if I'm going on a structure shoot or some PVP action, I'll take a Navy Geddon over the Apoc becuase the bonuses work out better for the Geddon as a PVP face melter. And you get a utility slot for the all important Nuet ~or~ Remote Repper without the DPS sacrifice.

TL;DR One is a Circular Saw, one is a Chain Saw. Both are tools with specific purposes.
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#15 - 2012-06-20 03:47:32 UTC
Mazzy Star wrote:

Just an FYI - your numbers are way off. That fit does 1265 dps at 20km, although scorch does give you a nice 64km optimal (certainly not 80km though). The tank is paper thin, although I suspect it's sufficient for most missions. I would also say that mixing CCC rigs and cap boosters is also a no-no.


add implants, although that puts the range off by quite a bit, especially on the long range as garde IIs have much less range than scorch, not to mention drone control range.

and ccc's aren't exactly the worst option, they let you concentrate all your cap booster use on the repper, as then you can (practically) perma fire the guns. although at the same time I dunno if I'd say they are the best option.

also 4 slot tank is more or less what I have on nearly every ship, plenty of tank!

pulse lasers aren't my favorite for missions, even with scorch I usually want more range. and with no tc/te fit well I don't think I could put up with mission running then.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Mazzy Star
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-06-20 04:25:42 UTC
Implants don't fix the horribly exaggerated range and that's the ship's biggest problem. 21KM optimal (with 3 scripts in) is quite low and you will find a ton of rats in Amarr missions that are well beyond that range. As a result, you'll be using scorch almost all the time, and you'll probably need to switch to bouncers or another longer-range drone so that your sentries are usable in those missions as well. That cuts the DPS down quite a bit. The other real problem I see is the lack of a prop mod. Personally, I rarely fly a mission boat without one, as there are just too many missions where you need to move from point A to B and there's no point killing the rats quickly if you're going to spend the next 5 minutes slowboating to the next gate.

Honestly, I'd go with a Navy Apoc for missions over the Navy Geddon, simply because the range bonus lets you use multifreq crystals more often in the Apoc. The other option is go to with something that fits beams like the Nightmare or Paladin. Save the Geddon and its variants for PVP.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#17 - 2012-06-20 05:36:42 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Mazzy Star wrote:
Implants don't fix the horribly exaggerated range and that's the ship's biggest problem. 21KM optimal (with 3 scripts in) is quite low and you will find a ton of rats in Amarr missions that are well beyond that range. As a result, you'll be using scorch almost all the time, and you'll probably need to switch to bouncers or another longer-range drone so that your sentries are usable in those missions as well. That cuts the DPS down quite a bit. The other real problem I see is the lack of a prop mod. Personally, I rarely fly a mission boat without one, as there are just too many missions where you need to move from point A to B and there's no point killing the rats quickly if you're going to spend the next 5 minutes slowboating to the next gate.

Honestly, I'd go with a Navy Apoc for missions over the Navy Geddon, simply because the range bonus lets you use multifreq crystals more often in the Apoc. The other option is go to with something that fits beams like the Nightmare or Paladin. Save the Geddon and its variants for PVP.


N. Geddon, with scorch, and Curator sentry drones for matching range, still puts out over 1k dps at 65km optimal. The N. Apoc with imperial multi that you prefer puts out 830 dps at 32km optimal (That's with 4 imperial navy heatsinks and 3 TC/TE). N. Apoc base speed is 10km lower than N. Geddon. Fit prop for missions with far gates.

N. Apoc is actually crap in comparison. Your love for it isn't rational.P

CCC rigs is the lazy option. It lets you to run guns without depleting cap, and save cap charges for pulsing tank. Use rep rigs if you prefer. But 4 slot tank is pretty standard, and enough for most missions.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#18 - 2012-06-20 08:45:56 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Mazzy Star wrote:
Implants don't fix the horribly exaggerated range and that's the ship's biggest problem. 21KM optimal (with 3 scripts in) is quite low and you will find a ton of rats in Amarr missions that are well beyond that range. As a result, you'll be using scorch almost all the time, and you'll probably need to switch to bouncers or another longer-range drone so that your sentries are usable in those missions as well. That cuts the DPS down quite a bit. The other real problem I see is the lack of a prop mod. Personally, I rarely fly a mission boat without one, as there are just too many missions where you need to move from point A to B and there's no point killing the rats quickly if you're going to spend the next 5 minutes slowboating to the next gate.

Honestly, I'd go with a Navy Apoc for missions over the Navy Geddon, simply because the range bonus lets you use multifreq crystals more often in the Apoc. The other option is go to with something that fits beams like the Nightmare or Paladin. Save the Geddon and its variants for PVP.


N. Geddon, with scorch, and Curator sentry drones for matching range, still puts out over 1k dps at 65km optimal. The N. Apoc with imperial multi that you prefer puts out 830 dps at 32km optimal (That's with 4 imperial navy heatsinks and 3 TC/TE). N. Apoc base speed is 10km lower than N. Geddon. Fit prop for missions with far gates.

N. Apoc is actually crap in comparison. Your love for it isn't rational.P

CCC rigs is the lazy option. It lets you to run guns without depleting cap, and save cap charges for pulsing tank. Use rep rigs if you prefer. But 4 slot tank is pretty standard, and enough for most missions.


QFT