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NPC corps should not be safe havens for players

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Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#201 - 2012-06-19 02:35:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Asuri Kinnes
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
New EVE players are the ones that suffer now, because they are the ones who tend to hop in swiftly stomped newbie player-owned corps while the PVE alts of veterans grind away in NPC corp safety. New players are punished for wanting to socialize in an MMO to the benefit of vets under the current system.

Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Do you think a system that favors the 60M sp PVE specialist alt at the expense of the of the newbie character in his first player-run corporation is really one that could be called casual and newbie friendly?

Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#202 - 2012-06-19 02:41:04 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
New EVE players are the ones that suffer now, because they are the ones who tend to hop in swiftly stomped newbie player-owned corps while the PVE alts of veterans grind away in NPC corp safety. New players are punished for wanting to socialize in an MMO to the benefit of vets under the current system.

Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.

An interesting argument, given how common it is for older, richer players to argue that NPC corps are necessary for the protection of new players.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Tesal
#203 - 2012-06-19 02:47:50 UTC
Not another "lets kill the newbs" thread. Please stop. Its been done a dozen times.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#204 - 2012-06-19 02:49:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Simi Kusoni wrote:
I will be honest with you, the fact that you are posting on an NPC corp alt and failed to recognize a CVA member as a null sec resident makes me doubtful as to your claims of being a null sec alt.


Who is CVA first? -Lol
He's posting for all CVA or his personal feelings?-then let me say it again, he can gank when things don't please him, no need to rabble old stuff about high sec and NPC and yadayada
Not encouraging gank noobs whatsoever, never encouraged this and never will. It's up to him to figure out when he can gank or not and assume consequences of whatever he does, not me not you or someone else.

And yes, this is an NPC alt, if someone has a problem with that he can always block it my feelings will not get internet hurt for that Cool


Quote:
But even were your claims true, encouraging suicide ganking for the most part just results in players targeting newbies who do not know to tank their haulers. Experienced players with NPC hauler alts or mission running alts are for all intents and purposes ungankable.


Again I don't encourage gank and specially not newbies, however:

Everyone is capable to right click and "info" character to figure out if it's a newb or not, then I'd find weird to see a week noob in in cloacky haulers or jump freighters/orcas.
If someone really wants to disrupt "x" alliance to get their stuff via NPC alt haulers it's a very long road since most of those goods are just hauled in JF's directly from stations...so NPC toons are not that much of a problem or should I say, a fake problem.

brb
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#205 - 2012-06-19 02:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
New EVE players are the ones that suffer now, because they are the ones who tend to hop in swiftly stomped newbie player-owned corps while the PVE alts of veterans grind away in NPC corp safety. New players are punished for wanting to socialize in an MMO to the benefit of vets under the current system.

Malcanis' Law: Any proposal justified on the basis that "it will benefit new players" is invariably to the greater advantage of older, richer players.

An interesting argument, given how common it is for older, richer players to argue that NPC corps are necessary for the protection of new players.

Those players should have long ago acquired the knowledge means to fight back or rationalized not doing so. New players on the other hand...
Crove
Spreadsheet Aces
#206 - 2012-06-19 02:55:25 UTC
This argument has nothing to do with new players, since it was explained on page one that we're talking NPC corps, not noob corps.

So, please explain to me what the benefit is of having a wardec-avoidance / spy haven mechanic. Right now that's all NPC corps are. They are a place to put alts that can't be retaliated against (in any practical manner) and a place for losing corps to put members to avoid a war. Both of those negate perfectly legitimate and balanced game mechanics and replace them with arbitrary and unfair mechanics.

How is that good?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#207 - 2012-06-19 02:58:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Crove wrote:
This argument has nothing to do with new players, since it was explained on page one that we're talking NPC corps, not noob corps.

So, please explain to me what the benefit is of having a wardec-avoidance / spy haven mechanic. Right now that's all NPC corps are. They are a place to put alts that can't be retaliated against (in any practical manner) and a place for losing corps to put members to avoid a war. Both of those negate perfectly legitimate and balanced game mechanics and replace them with arbitrary and unfair mechanics.

How is that good?

Dunno, wardecs are pretty arbitrary for one of the parties, and seeing as those are the only actual benefit of being there, well...

Also, what do you mean by "spy haven?"

Edit: What about those who never left the noob corp?
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#208 - 2012-06-19 03:26:33 UTC
Donte wrote:
Thoughts?


A: The idea is pants on head stupid.
B: Go poke other sov holders again...

Lol

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Romar Agent
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#209 - 2012-06-19 05:35:05 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
sandbox = we must have badly abused mechanics that make pvp optional
thanks for that contribution

Sandbox = PVP is optional
Sandbox = PVE is optional
Sandbox = anything is optional

Though PVP is only optional for those who decide to PVP,, as there is non-consentual PVP in this game.

That EVE has lots of bad mechanics and a plethora of bad physics is not new, but is a different topic.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#210 - 2012-06-19 05:45:15 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Eve is a 'Sandbox' which means there is no right or wrong way to play this game.

We've already heard the "'sandbox' means we have to preserve bad mechanics that are endlessly abused through alts to the detriment of the game" argument already, thanks.
I'll state it again - Sandbox means there is no right or wrong way to play. What you consider as a detriment to the game others view as being beneficial.

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
NPC corps have to go as they punish newbies, disincentivise working collectively (in an MMO no less), flood highsec with commodities due to a lack of ability of highsec players to effectively compete over resources, make nullsec logistics effectively invulnerable and in the process close the door to 0.0 for the vast majority of industrialists/miners. They don't protect newbies and the few benefits they provide could be equally delivered through the existence of a shared chat channel so unaffiliated players can talk.
Everything in that statement is incorrect. Large null sec Alliances getting together and making each other blue while endorsing NBSI policy and constantly doing blob ganks on Industrialists/Miners is what closed the door to 0.0 space.

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Your listing of specific things NPC corp members can't do is disingenuous - EVE is a game that rewards specialization, as CCP is quick to point out. So long as your NPC corp character is specializing something that synergizes with 100% CONCORD protection (like say mining, or freighter hauling) - there is no tradeoff, just benefit.
disingenuous - The Free Dictionary
www.thefreedictionary.com/disingenuous
adj. 1. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating: "an ambitious, disingenuous, philistine, and hypocritical operator,

Obviously the same word applies to your reasons for wanting to disband NPC corps.

Mining or Freighter Hauling is not 100% Concord protected in high security. The current trend and amount of suicide ganks in high security proves that.

Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
There's really no justification for NPC corps, decable or not. They need to be removed altogether and just make characters work in de facto one-man corps. that are decable, where wardec corps can decide which players are rich and vulnerable enough to be worth taking a go at, and others are truly too casual and new to be worth the effort.

There is justification for NPC corps and for players like me staying in them but I'm not going to list my reasons due to you being adamant about wanting NPC corps removed from the game.

Bottom line, you're promoting a change that will force everyone to engage in one aspect of this game, basically removing the players right to choose. There's other SyFy space games available that are strictly PvP with only player corps and no NPC corps. DarkSpace is like that.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#211 - 2012-06-19 05:45:23 UTC
Romar Agent wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
sandbox = we must have badly abused mechanics that make pvp optional
thanks for that contribution

Sandbox = PVP is optional
Sandbox = PVE is optional
Sandbox = anything is optional

Though PVP is only optional for those who decide to PVP,, as there is non-consentual PVP in this game.

That EVE has lots of bad mechanics and a plethora of bad physics is not new, but is a different topic.

And PvE is only optional for those that don't mind being space poor.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#212 - 2012-06-19 05:55:20 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness.


Fairness? LOL

CCP Soundwave has already stated that EVE isn't supposed to be fair. You are either in a large nullsec corp or you quit the game at this point.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#213 - 2012-06-19 06:00:44 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
This is not a question of making people fight, this is a question of fariness.


Fairness? LOL

CCP Soundwave has already stated that EVE isn't supposed to be fair. You are either in a large nullsec corp or you quit the game at this point.

Too right! We should introduce some kind of mechanic that would hurt large null sec corps!

I know! Lets remove their ability to use NPC hauler alts! Wow full circle!

I'm not entirely sure why I tried writing an entire post with exclamation marks, but all said and done I'm happy with the results.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
001100110011
00110011001100
#214 - 2012-06-19 06:06:31 UTC  |  Edited by: 001100110011
Donte wrote:
EVE is a harsh, cold, angry, bitter, mean, and many more malignant adjectives. None of which include "Safe".

So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?

Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it.

In response to this, i have written the following:

I don’t like it, when you turn my voice about
I don’t like it, when you vote one nation out
My language has been murdered, my language has been murdered
My shopping trolley murdered, my groceries just gone!

I don’t like it, when you turn my voice about
I don’t like it, when you vote one nation out
My language has been murdered, my language has been murdered
My shopping trolley murdered, my groceries just gone!

1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 racist, rubbish, racist hate.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8 racist, rubbish, racist

feel the heat

I don’t like it, when umm… railway lines are white
I don’t like it when umm… day becomes night

My language has been murdered, my language has been murdered
My shopping trolley murdered, my groceries just gone!

I don’t like it, no, no, no I don’t never did,
I don’t like it, I don’t like anything!
I don’t like it, no, no, no I don’t know where near
I don’t like it, I don’t like anything!

Please explain, why can’t my blood be coloured white
I should talk to some medical doctors, coloured blood is just not right

I don’t like anything, I cant do anything about it

But I like dancing, and I like the disco
Coz I left my heart, in san fransisco, yeah!

Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat
Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat

Get down, get down, down, down
I don’t like anything, except I like neil diamond, yeah!

Disco dance, disco dance
Lets go nation, not a chance
Disco dance, disco dance
Out of my tree, out of my branch

I don’t like it, no, no, no I don’t never did,
I don’t like it, I don’t like anything!
I don’t like it, no, no, no I don’t, I don’t care
I don’t like it, I don’t like anything!

I don’t like a puppet without strings
Theres a muppet in the wings
And its saying racist things, I wont cop that, no way

I, I, I, I don’t like anything

Video killed the racist star,
Howard won the **** you are,
But he's on the scrap-heap too,
A bit of a downer.

I don’t like anything, I cant do anything about it

But I like dancing, and I like the disco
Coz I left my heart, in san fransisco, yeah!

Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat
Feel the heat on the street, dance to the beat out of your seat

I don’t like it, no, no, no I don’t never did,
I don’t like it, I don’t like anything!
I don’t like it, no, no, no I don’t, I don’t care
I don’t like it, I don’t like anything!

No the whole thing is wrong, and it stinks and I don’t like it
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#215 - 2012-06-19 06:36:23 UTC
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
NPC corps have to go as they punish newbies, disincentivise working collectively (in an MMO no less), flood highsec with commodities due to a lack of ability of highsec players to effectively compete over resources, make nullsec logistics effectively invulnerable and in the process close the door to 0.0 for the vast majority of industrialists/miners. They don't protect newbies and the few benefits they provide could be equally delivered through the existence of a shared chat channel so unaffiliated players can talk.
Everything in that statement is incorrect. Large null sec Alliances getting together and making each other blue while endorsing NBSI policy and constantly doing blob ganks on Industrialists/Miners is what closed the door to 0.0 space.
Indeed. There's no reason for large alliances to bring in miners and industrialists when they can just use NPC corp freighter alts to move supplies from trade hubs without any inconvenience. Recruiting miners and small-scale industrialists (aka a lot of newbies) is just a needless liability - on the Fanfest 2012 it turned out that the more developed a 0.0 alliance was, the less and less null manufacturing they actually did. The space of Stainwagon renters turned out to be more industrially active then the entire CFC. So miners and industrialists are stuck in highsec where they are forced to compete economically against people who do not have to factor in the costs of wardecs - aka PVE alts in NPC corps. With that in context, I fail to see how the existence of NPC corps truly benefits the small-scale industrialist/miner.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Bottom line, you're promoting a change that will force everyone to engage in one aspect of this game, basically removing the players right to choose. There's other SyFy space games available that are strictly PvP with only player corps and no NPC corps. DarkSpace is like that.

I'm promoting a change that will merely treat all players equally, to the benefit of everyone. This "removing the players right to choose" you mention, as far as your 'right' to opt for PVP or not in EVE - as you pointed out yourself one sentence ago,

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
[Mining or Freighter Hauling is not 100% Concord protected in high security. The current trend and amount of suicide ganks in high security proves that.


There's not much "choice" involved in EVE as far as PVP goes already.
The problem is that suicide ganking is too easily avoided, or at least made cost-ineffective.
Plaude Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#216 - 2012-06-19 06:49:12 UTC
With the new War Declaration prices, it's not worth it to wardec an NPC corp. Remember. They have NPC's counting towards their members as well as players, meaning you would pay billions just to wardec a corp with maybe 200 players online at any time. I don't know the exact numbers, but last I checked, Aliastra had enough members to count them in millions. Just imagine how much it would cost to wardec that many targets, even though most are NPC's. See why NPC-corps are immune to wardens? Even if they weren't, nobody (except goons) would have the money to wardec them.

New to EVE? Want to learn? The Crimson Cartel will train you in the fields of _**your **_choice. Mainly active in EU afternoons and evenings. Contact me for more info.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#217 - 2012-06-19 06:58:49 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Indeed. There's no reason for large alliances to bring in miners and industrialists when they can just use NPC corp freighter alts to move supplies from trade hubs without any inconvenience. Recruiting miners and small-scale industrialists (aka a lot of newbies) is just a needless liability - on the Fanfest 2012 it turned out that the more developed a 0.0 alliance was, the less and less null manufacturing they actually did. The space of Stainwagon renters turned out to be more industrially active then the entire CFC. So miners and industrialists are stuck in highsec where they are forced to compete economically against people who do not have to factor in the costs of wardecs - aka PVE alts in NPC corps. With that in context, I fail to see how the existence of NPC corps truly benefits the small-scale industrialist/miner.

Pretty much, other than the poor fellows who take care of the tech moon POSses and the supercapital producers, I'm not sure what else really happens.

Some miners shipping high-end minerals to highsec. You also have to refine guns back into trit to make the supercaps....

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#218 - 2012-06-19 08:32:13 UTC
...but being a forum alt in an npc corp is part of the meta game isn't it?
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#219 - 2012-06-19 08:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
There's no reason for large alliances to bring in miners and industrialists when they can just use NPC corp freighter alts to move supplies from trade hubs without any inconvenience.


Every one benefits from this including your own corp/alliance and not only for hauling, neutral rep alts, neutral falcon, neutral boost, neutral scout.
When you undock you accept that your ship might be blown by gank dudes, this is also inconvenient. Of course you need more than a simple blaster catalyst, risk/reward stuff.

Quote:
Recruiting miners and small-scale industrialists (aka a lot of newbies) is just a needless liability - on the Fanfest 2012 it turned out that the more developed a 0.0 alliance was, the less and less null manufacturing they actually did. The space of Stainwagon renters turned out to be more industrially active then the entire CFC. So miners and industrialists are stuck in highsec where they are forced to compete economically against people who do not have to factor in the costs of wardecs - aka PVE alts in NPC corps. With that in context, I fail to see how the existence of NPC corps truly benefits the small-scale industrialist/miner.


Again, every single alliance has trading/hauling/industrial/mining alts in high sec and the problem doesn't come because end ores are in HS and better industry slots are there where player driven content is (null sov, player build stations etc)
How much effort CCP puts in to give null/low a huge buff to industry and nerf high sec industry, and can you prove most of those industry slots will not be taken by null/low/wh industrial alts because those regions suddenly got interesting?

Then all your problems of neutral alts and industrials yadyada will be no more? -I don't think so, you'll find new ones.

Quote:
I'm promoting a change that will merely treat all players equally, to the benefit of everyone.


It isn't and will never be. You want to force everyone to share your vision of Eve where they shouldn't have the choice of having some char or alt in NPC corps...welp, it's a sandbox and I'm pretty sure some would like concord everywhere including WHs.

Quote:
There's not much "choice" involved in EVE as far as PVP goes already.
The problem is that suicide ganking is too easily avoided, or at least made cost-ineffective.


So you have the tools but you don't want to use them because it's cost effective?-I suppose you'd like to cyno your Titan blap doomsday on that freighter get concord claps and giggles maybe some /bows from space barbies...

You have the tools (gank), so does the other player(NPC corp), one of you will outsmart the other. That simple.

brb
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#220 - 2012-06-19 10:01:51 UTC
The way things are now - Characters in NPC Corporations can be killed in high sec but there is a CONCORD response.
The way the OP wants things to be - Characters in NPC Corporation can be killed in high sec with no CONCORD response.

So the difference between the way things are and the the way the OP would like to see it is the CONCORD response?

How does one person or group demanding changes in game mechanics so they can kill people in a safer environment differ from another group of people demanding changes to be able to mine in a safer environment?

It doesn't and in both cases amounts to be both people being unable to adapt leaving them with two choices: 1) Quit playing (and if you're upset about it enough, threaten CCP with your unsub) because Eve is hard or 2) Come on the GD forums and whine some more about stuff you want changed.

Stop trying to change the mechanics that have been in place for as long as I can remember and find ways to adapt. Eve is hard.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

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