Intergalactic Summit

I may of course be wrong but I find that your points hold many discrepancies, or things that I just do not understand.



You may consider it as a bait and it may well sound like it, though it was in my intention to actually make things clear. Now that is done - and thank you for your answer - does your will to get Caldari Prime back falls into the federal version of "keep your tendrils to yourself" ?



This makes you sound like a freedom fighter.

I must apologize in advance for such a stretched analogy, but it is often under the precise terms of freedom and liberation that most unstability, conflicts, and chaos emerge. To people who have nothing, freedom may sound like gold, but I can not help but feel that you use these words with a dangerous nonchalance that has a high probability of leading to conflict through a very inflammed, offending tone. As you may know, telling people that you are fighting for your own freedom and most of all, liberation, this targeted precisely at them, is probably not the best course of diplomacy you could choose since it basically implies that they are your oppressors.



This is part of the discrepancies I mentionned above.

You tell that [ipeople have allowed themselves to be thrust into conflict yet again because of atrocities committed by one side or the other [/i], and yet continue to support the attack on Caldari Prime ? It might sound a little hypocritical to me, and you might also know that this point of view is very specific to provists ? Most patriots were reluctant to conduct a military action to get their homeworld back before Heth. They still thought that other actions were highly preferable.

And on the other hand, you conduct yourself with reason in the stances you adopt in that proxy war, and I may say that they really seem to conflict and contrast with that stance of yours concerning the "liberation" of your homeworld.

What? I'm not sure I understand what you're asking, but if you're asking if the retaking of Caldari Prime could be seen as "keep your tendrils to yourself" from a Federal perspective then I'm going to call you insane. Caldari Prime is the Caldari homeworld, not the Gallente one. Period.



I honestly don't care how it makes me sound. Since our explanation that our interest is to protect our way of life and our culture is met with blank looks of confusion or self-righteous condemnation, then I'll use language that makes sense to my audience. Furthermore, I don't care how you think I'm using the words and I have no intention of implying that the Gallente oppressed the Caldari, I made that assertion quite obvious without implication.

I also never once stated that my purpose was diplomacy. You have a habit of criticizing everything someone says if they're not walking a perfect middle ground. I'm not interested in walking a middle ground. I've made my intentions and motivations perfectly clear. I will defend the State and its people from foreign occupancy because they don't belong in Caldari sovereign space. I'm not here to shake hands and put on a plastic smile while there are still Caldari State planets occupied by foreign forces.

Would I prefer a peaceful resolution? Absolutely. I don't have the power or authority to orchestrate one, however. What I do have the power and authority to do is help facilitate some form of stability by defending State sovereign space from foreign occupancy, provide security for State assets and interests within State sovereign space and act as a shield against further turmoil and destruction caused by this war.



I am going to attempt to make this as clear and non-venomous as I possibly can given your constant scrutiny and opinionated criticisms. You will note that I very specifically said "we" when referring to the start of this current conflict because I was not pointing the blame at any person or group of people. We as a people, both Gallente and Caldari, have allowed ourselves to be drawn into conflict once again because of a cataclysmic event that escalated the already existing tension.

Secondly, the "attack" on Caldari Prime was the Caldari retaking what is rightfully ours. End of story. Do I think it was the best way to do it? No. But I will certainly not stand here idly and listen to it constantly be pointed at in a manner that suggests we had no right or reason to do so because that's absolute scrap.

Finally, you see a contrast because you judge based on your own perspective and viewpoint. This is the third time you've accused me of being either a Provist or a Liberal.

I am a Caldari and I have made my intentions and my stances perfectly clear. Your self-righteous judgments and accusations are beyond tiresome and meaningless. I have no more patience for trading arguments with you.

Ah-- but that's the point precisely, Ms. Farel. You seem to attribute to us precisely the defects that the Amarr possess-- but while both civilizations may be conservative and protectionist in their outlook, they differ fundamentally. The Achura would not be permitted to exist as a separate culture within the Empire. Certainly, we would not be allowed to retain our religion, or to teach principles of Achur mysticism to Amarrian Holders (except, perhaps, as a subject of academic study) as we sometimes do with Caldari executives.

The Amarr do not proceed selectively. They proceed (or fail to) exclusively.

The Caldari do not suffer from the same refusal to see the merit in other ways of life. They simply try to be very careful about which they choose to adopt-- which, since not every cultural shift can be fairly called an improvement, seems like the reasonable way to go about it. But perhaps that's just my own prejudices talking.



So I recall. It is precisely the integrity of that philosophy that we try to protect. The Caldari do much the same with their own traditions of thought.



The Caldari have existed in contact with the Gallente for over seven hundred years, Ms. Farel.

The Minmatar suffered (yes, loaded word, I know) Amarrian hospitality and proactive attempts to annihilate their culture for a thousand years.

Both groups retain a distinct and strong cultural identity, based, in both cases, at least partly on defiance of those who would subvert that identity.

If you had said that cultural influence was inevitable, I would have agreed (where would the Matari be, now, without the Amarr? Much different, I suspect-- less angry, for one), but contact between cultures does not appear to produce such reliable results as you seem to think.

Have you considered that it isn't about logic? It's emotional, it's personal. The Caldari never forgot the loss of Caldari Prime, and we long promised to return some day. There are logical reasons for why we should return, namely that Caldari Prime is sacred to our culture and always has been. The ancient history of our people is there on that planet. The graves of our greatest heroes and shrines to our most revered spirits reside there. The tapestry of our history was woven in blood and ice on that planet.

What I fail to understand is how you can completely miss that. You're an educated woman, Lyn Farel. You're not thickheaded or stupid or ignorant... I have a difficult time believing you have never considered that the homeworld of an entire race is worth fighting for. Worth killing for. Worth dying for.

It's not based in logic, and logic has no authority or bearing for it. Concepts like this do not prescribe to the tenets of reason and logic. This is raw emotion. Love, hate, and determination. Nevertheless, they are an integral part of the human psyche. It always has been.

Actually, I have considered that it is about emotional purposes. I discarded it since a lot of emotions are only logical biologically, but make little sense when a rational decision has to be taken. They are merely strong and influencial facts that have to be dealt with, eventually.

There are a lot of strong similarities between the Gallente-Caldari and the Amarr-Minmatar conflicts. People continue to resent emotional attachement to strong events that took place ages ago. It is only logical that they feel anger for the wrongs that their ancestors had to endure, due to a very simple emotional link that is called empathy, empthay to their kin, and ancestors. Otherwise, they would not care at all since they were not even born when said events occured.

What is not rational, though, is to conveniently forget that the whole context has changed since then to a point where claims over a planet they never even grew up on, go against all sense. Since they never grew up on that planet, they can not feel an emotional attachement to it, but they can resent it through empathy.

Justice for what happened can still be applied in a lot of fashions that would of course require a lot of actual talking and conciliation. But reclaiming a world that has - almost - nothing left for you in the name of your ancestors you never knew sounds completely overexagerated, irrational, and out of logic for the reasons I explained above. This is exactly by blindly listening to our emotional attachements that we prove unable to separate ourselves from the animals we were long ago. Unless you consider that a war waged on mere emotions is an example of virtue and restraint ?

So, to answer to your question, I would definitly consider that a planet is worth dying for if there is an actual gain to it. But in our case here, much like in the case of Arzad for example, I fail to see where the gain is. Again, what makes you want to take back that piece of rock ? What do you have to gain over it ? I am pretty sure that most Caldari commoners must ask themselves the same question. "Why did we want that planet again ? We gained absolutely nothing, except a war and dead sons and daughters." Who profited from this, ultimately ? Politics. That kind of misplaced and unlogical patriotism is nothing but a mere political tool to unify and move the masses. To achieve agendas that would not be achievable otherwise.

You are more than welcome to not understand what the resource gain is. Mostly because there is no resource to be gained from Caldari Prime. That world was stripped of precious raw materials long before we ever lost it. Like I meant to say, it's not about resources. It is however about honoring our ancestors... which is something deeply ingrained in Caldari culture.

You're not expected to understand that, and that's okay. You're an outsider. Jaijii. But please don't do yourself the disservice by dismissing what you do not understand.

Keep in mind I don't agree with how Heth handled the situation. I would have preferred a diplomatic solution, but what chances there were for that were exhausted on both sides long before Heth came into power. The war left hatred on both sides of the fence, and negotiation was not an option for reclaiming sovereignty of Caldari Prime.

Perhaps if CONCORD existed before the war, we may have had a chance at peaceful negotiation... but during CONCORD's birth, the Gallente owned Caldari Prime. They maintained that status quo, not wanting to tread on issues that started before their time.

So it was that eventually, a racist madman came to power and took back our world by force. He fulfilled the promise to return our ancestors made so long ago. He relieved us of the burden of inaction, with dead sons and fathers as you say.

It's not pretty, and I'm not proud of it... but I will never accept that we should not have Caldari Prime. Ever.

Oh yes, I can definitly understand that it has always been about honoring the ancestors. You may know that ancestors, and roots, are not the monopoly of the Caldari and are actually shared by an impressive amount of cultures, starting with the Minmatar and the Amarr. Related to their elders for the former, and often related to canonized figures and saints for the latter. Even the Gallente retain a certain sense of ancestry, even if not held at the same scale.

I do not think it is a question of being an outsider for that precise reason. It would rather be a question of not being human, the capsuleership put aside. I can assure you that I understand the concept since I have seen it in a lot of cultures in its own special flavor.

However - and here I am trying to think exactly like someone strongly believing in his own ancestors - maybe your ancestors would actually be ashamed to see that all their sons and daughters decided to sacrify their lives, and more importantly, the stability and prosperity of the very same people they managed to save in their time. Here it might not be about making them proud, but about making them sad.

Or maybe not. Maybe they would be proud that you took your revenge for them.

All of this even if they are dead since long and probably do not think too much of it in any case. In that case, though, if it is part of the caldari culture to be proud of such things done in the name of honor, a concept that can probably be twisted as well as freedom is these days, then it is a part of the caldari culture that maybe, maybe, should be changed. After all, it is not because something is part of traditions, of a culture, that it is inevitably and inherently beneficial. You just have to take a look at slavery, or at Vo'shun to get convinced.

Once I might have agreed. Once, I thought myself rational, or nearly so, if only in that I understood my own emotional bonds, my own logical frailties.

But rationality is easily tinged. Even when logic holds up under scrutiny, and even when it survives on its own terms, it can still be driven by love, loyalty, fear ... pain. Truths twisted by self-deception are as good as lies.

I am not rational, Ms. Farel. What I am is an extremely good liar.

Neutrality does not imply clarity, only a different perspective. Natalcya Katla was not driven by reason when she founded the Astropolitan Front, Ms. Farel. Nor, I think, does your search for common ground indicate a stronger understanding, only a wholly understandable, but emotional, desire for people to make sense.

Science, we may have in common-- a method of testing our perceptions against underlying reality. That is good. However, the worlds people live in, even the emotional aspects of those worlds, have a reality all their own. To refuse to see that is to deny a basic truth of the human experience-- and that is, itself, irrational.

Khross-haan has a part to play, full of honor and tradition, and he is determined to play it well. It is backed by over a thousand years of aspirations and hopes, the visions the Caldari hold of what is best in themselves. I know some of what drives him, for I feel a similar spur. If he seeks to become a paragon of the Civire, so do I of the Achura.

He seeks honor; I, wisdom. And you, it would seem, also seek to become wise.

If that is so, both you and I must try to remember this, difficult as that may be in a universe that often seems full to the brim with fools:

Clarity does not pass judgment; it only sees.

Jenneth,

You humble me with your grace and patience.

It is best if I step away from this conversation at this time.

You're implying here that all change is a form of progress and that all lack of change is negative. Not to mention that 'left behind' suggests all the people in the universe are in a giant competition against one another with a clear goal and win condition.

What you see as deficits has helped the Amarr remain a strong entity over the years despite having an expansive empire and the largest population of any faction. Cultural homogeneity may seem a defect to you, but it's the reason the Amarr and the Khanid have been able to reunite after splintering centuries ago. Culturally and religiously speaking, we're siblings.

I get that you're after a golden mean philosophy, but in doing so, you're simply promoting your ideal as the best and not acknowledging why various cultures do what they do and how it benefits them. Ironically, your view comes off as rather narrow minded. You're not actually open to learning from others, as you've already decided you know better than the Amarr about how the Amarr ought to live and think. Likewise the Caldari and Gallente.