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NPC corps should not be safe havens for players

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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#181 - 2012-06-19 01:02:10 UTC
loard doktor wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

a) Corp members can attack you. Not fleet members.

b) Yes, you can enter a station while under attack.

c) Certain strategies currently available in game can render you very essentially impervious to reprisal.


a) She had me join a fleet so she could do so. You get a warning when you join fleets, but I didnt fully realise what it meant

b) the station would allow it.

c) I know little about these. This acccount is only about a month old, but I know Ive been attacked while in a newbe corp before.

Ok, the warning when you join fleets is to let you know that you will be killed by concord for attacking fleet members.

The station won't let you dock if you have attacked them, there is a sixty second timer for aggression. If they attack you, you can still dock.

If you take a can, or are flying something valuable and weak enough to warrant suicide ganking, you can die in a newbie corp. Bar that, you're essentially invulnerable.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#182 - 2012-06-19 01:06:16 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

There is no "wrong way to play", but game mechanics and game design philosophies are something decided out of game.

Everything is allowed within the mechanics of the game, but when it comes to discussions on what those mechanics should be anything goes. It is important however to remember, as many people on these forums are liable to forget, that there is no disconnected "I'm not effecting anyone else" play style.

Everyone in Eve has an impact, whether they are impacting the market and actively causing mudflation or driving new players away via griefing. As such mechanics must, at times, be designed to limit the negative impact of certain play styles.

No doubt the game mechanics and philosophies have certain goals in mind, but those goals often assume things about player goals. When players goals and/or means of pursuing them don't fall in line with what you had in mind, what do you do? Do you accept it and admit that the nature of the game you created opened this unforeseen possibility? Or do you forcefully guide and correct their way of play, creating camps of those that are doing it right and those that aren't?

To be honest I would go along with it if I felt it wasn't damaging to the game.

However I personally feel that NPC alt logistics, high sec war dec evasion and high income high sec PvE does add an invulnerable aspect to the game that generally has a negative impact. I'll admit that this is just my opinion, but it is (usually) supported by relatively sound reasoning.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Xavier Bandar
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#183 - 2012-06-19 01:06:40 UTC
loard doktor wrote:

a) She had me join a fleet so she could do so. You get a warning when you join fleets, but I didnt fully realise what it meant

b) the station would allow it.

c) I know little about these. This acccount is only about a month old, but I know Ive been attacked while in a newbe corp before.


In prison, someone will burn a swastika on your asscheek with their cigarette for talking like this. Just saying, as that metaphor seems popular these days.
loard doktor
tradersbear
#184 - 2012-06-19 01:06:47 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Of course, and I primarily engage in those "other" activities. I spend most of my time in game running complexes and wormholes, and I am extremely paranoid and risk averse when I do so.

But at the same time I recognise the fact that the market, and indeed Eve in general, relies on a certain level of ship destruction. Risk free PvE results in the kind of mudflation we have seen in recent years, and it needs to be hit on the head before it becomes a genuine issue.

Not to mention the fact that, let's be honest, PvE in this game simply isn't challenging. While we may at times hate that we are being hunted whilst we are trying to make our billions, this is where the fun comes from. The challenge of making all that ISK, despite people trying to stop you.


WHEN I reach the point where Im bored making money WITHOUT people trying constantly kill me (they already try to keep me from making money without that), ill move to nul sec and do it there.

There is no need for ccp to make everyone play YOUR game YOUR way instead of playing their own game their own way.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#185 - 2012-06-19 01:08:59 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:

Boobs and Bacon


They may take our undeccability, but they will never take our boobs and bacon!
loard doktor
tradersbear
#186 - 2012-06-19 01:11:22 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Ok, the warning when you join fleets is to let you know that you will be killed by concord for attacking fleet members.

The station won't let you dock if you have attacked them, there is a sixty second timer for aggression. If they attack you, you can still dock.

If you take a can, or are flying something valuable and weak enough to warrant suicide ganking, you can die in a newbie corp. Bar that, you're essentially invulnerable.



Appearantly we dont get the same warning. She WASNT killed or even attack right outside a station and she attack multiple members of the fleet.

You arent listening. She attacked me and the stations REFUESED repeatedly to allow me to dock. NO ONE attacked her (I was carrying mining gear, not weapons so i couldnt attack ANYONE)

YES, if you aren not doing ANYTHING in the game, your completely safe. The minute you leave, someone will try to kill you, one way or another.
Kyle Valentine
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#187 - 2012-06-19 01:12:42 UTC
Simple option, and better control of the market : Do not sell to negative security status.
And if an alt is used, the sec status penalty follow.
Perhaps a new smuggler's heaven in low sec ?

But you know, all systems have flaws.
John Anonymous
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#188 - 2012-06-19 01:14:18 UTC
Safe Havens? I'm not sure what the OP is talking about. Those guys in corp chat can be pretty rough some times. Once in a while they type something that really hurts my feelings. I get over it eventually, thanks to the booze and the hours of lvl 4 mission running.
Whisperen
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#189 - 2012-06-19 01:16:30 UTC
Sounds like a good idea to me the old voting system combined with the npc hauler spawns and even looking at the old npc buy order lists it seems to me that npc vs npc corp warfare of some type even within the same npc empire was getting brainstormed by ccp at some stage in eves design. Maybe they can get back to it after faction warfare's finished ;D.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#190 - 2012-06-19 01:33:30 UTC
OK, I've seen a lot of fail reasons, generalized comparisons and shallow examples being stated by so called leet PvP's trying to incite a change that will force others to play this game a specific way.

Stop trying to dictate to others how this game should be played. Eve is a 'Sandbox' which means there is no right or wrong way to play this game. Eve is not scripted and it allows everyone to engage in various types of gameplay. Whether it's PvP, PvE or a combination of both, that content can be done in either NPC corp or player corp. It's all about freedom of choice. That is what makes Eve great. Each choice has consequences though.

If I want to stay in NPC corp that's my right and my choice. Sure there's no WarDec option but that's a 2 way street. I highly doubt a player Corp / Alliance want's to tango with Empire in high sec. Choosing to stay in NPC corp with the no WarDec option has it's consequences.

Corp mates can't engage others who aggro a member in high sec without incurring the wrath of Concord, even when fleeted.
Can't own POS, must use public Science and Industry slots which usually have month long waiting line in high sec.
Can't own and control a POCO or collect Tax.
Must pay tax to NPC corp for missions completed and NPC bounty's.
Must build up +8.00 standing with NPC corp to create Jump Clones.

There's other consequences as well, such as constantly being labeled an alt or spy. Can't take advantage of Infrastructure upgrades in null sec unless it's an alt character of an Alliance member. The list goes on and on but the way I see it, if that NPC Freighter going in and out of Jita bothers you, then do some Recon and see where it's going and jump on it in low sec. Either that or just do the 'quote' player driven content 'unquote' and suicide gank it.

Make your choice, accept the consequences for your actions and stop trying to dictate to others how this game should be played.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#191 - 2012-06-19 01:35:06 UTC
loard doktor wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Ok, the warning when you join fleets is to let you know that you will be killed by concord for attacking fleet members.

The station won't let you dock if you have attacked them, there is a sixty second timer for aggression. If they attack you, you can still dock.

If you take a can, or are flying something valuable and weak enough to warrant suicide ganking, you can die in a newbie corp. Bar that, you're essentially invulnerable.



Appearantly we dont get the same warning. She WASNT killed or even attack right outside a station and she attack multiple members of the fleet.

You arent listening. She attacked me and the stations REFUESED repeatedly to allow me to dock. NO ONE attacked her (I was carrying mining gear, not weapons so i couldnt attack ANYONE)

YES, if you aren not doing ANYTHING in the game, your completely safe. The minute you leave, someone will try to kill you, one way or another.

If she's in your corp, and you're in a player corp, she can attack you. If she's not in your corp she cannot attack you or other fleet members purely because she is in fleet with you. Seriously, go read the warning.

As for docking, you cannot dock for one minute after attacking something. Other than that the only time you'd be prevented from docking is if you were outside of the docking radius of the station. Just because someone is attacking you does not mean you cannot dock.

Although that would be an amusing mechanic.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#192 - 2012-06-19 01:41:05 UTC
loard doktor wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Of course, and I primarily engage in those "other" activities. I spend most of my time in game running complexes and wormholes, and I am extremely paranoid and risk averse when I do so.

But at the same time I recognise the fact that the market, and indeed Eve in general, relies on a certain level of ship destruction. Risk free PvE results in the kind of mudflation we have seen in recent years, and it needs to be hit on the head before it becomes a genuine issue.

Not to mention the fact that, let's be honest, PvE in this game simply isn't challenging. While we may at times hate that we are being hunted whilst we are trying to make our billions, this is where the fun comes from. The challenge of making all that ISK, despite people trying to stop you.


WHEN I reach the point where Im bored making money WITHOUT people trying constantly kill me (they already try to keep me from making money without that), ill move to nul sec and do it there.

There is no need for ccp to make everyone play YOUR game YOUR way instead of playing their own game their own way.

It isn't about playing "my game, my way", its about people using NPC corp alts for invulnerable high sec logistics.

And corp hopping/war dec evasion for invulnerable high sec botting/ISK generation etc.

Contrary to popular belief high sec is not a separate game, the actions of players in high sec impacts those of us outside. And personally I'd rather not see Eve go the same way as ultima online.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#193 - 2012-06-19 01:45:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Eve is a 'Sandbox' which means there is no right or wrong way to play this game.

We've already heard the "'sandbox' means we have to preserve bad mechanics that are endlessly abused through alts to the detriment of the game" argument already, thanks. NPC corps have to go as they punish newbies, disincentivise working collectively (in an MMO no less), flood highsec with commodities due to a lack of ability of highsec players to effectively compete over resources, make nullsec logistics effectively invulnerable and in the process close the door to 0.0 for the vast majority of industrialists/miners. They don't protect newbies and the few benefits they provide could be equally delivered through the existence of a shared chat channel so unaffiliated players can talk.

Your listing of specific things NPC corp members can't do is disingenuous - EVE is a game that rewards specialization, as CCP is quick to point out. So long as your NPC corp character is specializing something that synergizes with 100% CONCORD protection (like say mining, or freighter hauling) - there is no tradeoff, just benefit.

There's really no justification for NPC corps, decable or not. They need to be removed altogether and just make characters work in de facto one-man corps. that are decable, where wardec corps can decide which players are rich and vulnerable enough to be worth taking a go at, and others are truly too casual and new to be worth the effort.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#194 - 2012-06-19 01:52:23 UTC
Donte wrote:
So why is it that NPC corporations are immune to wardec's?


You can gank them

Quote:
Individuals who fly for these companies are the "safest" people in EVE and i don't like it.


You can gank them

Quote:
I think you should be able to wardec NPC corps.


You can gank them

Quote:
Im sure considerations can be made with rules already in place about "safe havens" for brand new players in starter systems (perhaps even a starter constellation). but once they leave... Twisted

Thoughts?


Null sec is by far safer than high sec, why don't you come pvp in there? -you have targets choice and don't even have to pay wardec fees to concord.
Come along space buddy, come clean all those "safe heavens" from north to south and west to est. I don't know how Eve did before you had that brilliant idea...


Quote:
NPC corps =/= Noob corps. they're different entities. NPC corps can only be entered after a player leaves a player corporation.



Gank them.


One question for you as high sec publord: why don't you move to null and do serious stuff over there instead of whining?

brb
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#195 - 2012-06-19 02:01:08 UTC
"Yeah CVA guy why don't you move to nullsec" said the NPC corp poster

lol
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#196 - 2012-06-19 02:04:29 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
"Yeah CVA guy why don't you move to nullsec" said the NPC corp poster

lol



Another idiot with the old rabble "npc" alt stupid argument to prove he's a better pixels fan on the internet. Bravo.

*gives cookie*

brb
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#197 - 2012-06-19 02:11:01 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
"Yeah CVA guy why don't you move to nullsec" said the NPC corp poster

lol



Another idiot with the old rabble "npc" alt stupid argument to prove he's a better pixels fan on the internet. Bravo.

*gives cookie*

In all fairness you are a high sec player, advocating ganking as a solution for situations where ganking is not realistically possible, and also telling a null sec pilot he is a high sec publord that should go play in null sec.

All in all it wasn't a particularly impressive rant on your part.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#198 - 2012-06-19 02:18:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lin-Young Borovskova
Simi Kusoni wrote:
In all fairness you are a high sec player


At all, however I do have an high sec for obvious stuff like everyone, or almost, living in null has. I see no problem here, why should there be one and when am I a null sec follower or an high sec pubbie? Lol

Quote:
...advocating ganking as a solution for situations where ganking is not realistically possible...


It is, just watch out Eve-Kill and point all the NPC corp player kills/deaths, they provide far more pvp content than most high sec self proclaimed "pirates" and "pvp" tough dudes ^^

Quote:
...and also telling a null sec pilot he is a high sec publord that should go play in null sec.

All in all it wasn't a particularly impressive rant on your part.


Good stuff with this forum is that some crap is so hilarious there's no other answer than play the same game: the ignorant game
If some guy can't do better for his pvp epeen than complain and whine on forums when pvp is everywhere...simple answer: gank and stop crying or move to better places.

Eve is harsh Lol

brb
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#199 - 2012-06-19 02:22:35 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
In all fairness you are a high sec player


At all, however I do have an high sec for obvious stuff like everyone, or almost, living in null has. I see no problem here, why should there be one and when am I a null sec follower or an high sec pubbie? Lol]

You spent like a page yelling at a guy in CVA to 'move to nullsec', let's just say I'm going to give your claims of 0.0 experience a bit of doubt.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#200 - 2012-06-19 02:33:32 UTC
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
In all fairness you are a high sec player


At all, however I do have an high sec for obvious stuff like everyone, or almost, living in null has. I see no problem here, why should there be one and when am I a null sec follower or an high sec pubbie? Lol

I will be honest with you, the fact that you are posting on an NPC corp alt and failed to recognize a CVA member as a null sec resident makes me doubtful as to your claims of being a null sec alt.

Not to mention your use of the word "there", rather than "here", when describing null sec.

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Quote:
...advocating ganking as a solution for situations where ganking is not realistically possible...


It is, just watch out Eve-Kill and point all the NPC corp player kills/deaths, they provide far more pvp content than most high sec self proclaimed "pirates" and "pvp" tough dudes ^^

I beg to differ.

But even were your claims true, encouraging suicide ganking for the most part just results in players targeting newbies who do not know to tank their haulers. Experienced players with NPC hauler alts or mission running alts are for all intents and purposes ungankable.

Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Good stuff with this forum is that some crap is so hilarious there's no other answer than play the same game: the ignorant game
If some guy can't do better for his pvp epeen than complain and whine on forums when pvp is everywhere...simple answer: gank and stop crying or move to better places.

Eve is harsh Lol

The problem is that giant high sec safe zones, that are only getting safer as time goes by, affect us all. High sec is not some closed system that operates without repercussions, high sec mechanics have just as great an impact on those outside of high sec as they do on those inside high sec.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]