These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Attack frigate changes

First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#21 - 2012-06-18 18:28:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
perhaps the tormentor could get a +10% hitpoint bonus and drone bonus making it a heavy drone boat since amarr and sniping don't go, that and coercer can do it better. and no point in comparing it to the ewar frig as all those frigs has/should have range or drone dmg bonus

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2012-06-18 19:46:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
CCP Ytterbium

Good changes!!!! this was really a good Idea to meke every ship usefull...

And it was nice to remove atron drone bay, it doesn't fit well on its role.


Offtopic: How about that concept of cloak hunting ship.... that was commented in the lpast CSM meeting??? or any other thing related to remove those unwanted players from your sov? that stays cloaked for weeks waiting your millitary/ industrial levels to become crap??

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-06-18 19:55:59 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
but How about that concept of cloak hunting ship


This is totally feedback regarding the changes that were posted.
sorry, but you used more words in the off topic part of your post than the on topic part - lets try to keep the discussion on Ytterbium's proposed changes.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
Scatim Helicon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-06-18 20:44:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Scatim Helicon
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I sense a disturbance in the force - as if 8 interceptors at once cried out for a buff.

Pretty much. I get the distinct impression we're going to see power creep every time a new range of changes are announced, which will have massive balance consequences across the range between those ships already buffed and those awaiting their turn.

As I said in the dev blog comments thread, if these ships are intended to fit into the 'Tech 1 interceptor' niche, why are they all being given double weapon bonuses, with a prop jamming role bonus thrown in on top? These are fast tacklers, their raison d'etre is to go fast and point/scram/web something, not be solo death machines. These things look for all the world just as offensive as, and not much less defensive than, the already-buffed 'combat' frigates (not least with the plethora of extra slots for tanking options and damage mods if desired).

All of these should drop the across-the-board role bonus, switch at least one and maybe both of the gun bonuses for something that actually helps them in the interception role (velocity/prop mod cap usage/agility/sig radius/scan res/prop jamming cap usage/etc), and remove a highslot or two.

Every time you post a WiS thread, Hilmar strangles a kitten.
Paul Clancy
Korpu no Byakko
#25 - 2012-06-18 21:22:11 UTC
Should these new T1-tacklers really have damage bonus? warpspeed maybe? or MWD-signature?
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#26 - 2012-06-18 21:35:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
well dmg bonus combined with tracking bonus if turrets will help them kill drones thus keeping the point on longer thus helping its role. so add tracking bonus to the amarr and gallente one.
also mwd bonus is for t2 ships like AF's and hopefully will be added to all EAF's hyena has a limited one atm, and to HACS .

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-06-18 22:08:10 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

EXECUTIONER:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: -10% to small energy turret capacitor need and +5% small energy turret damage per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 3 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, 0 launchers
  • Fittings: 45 PWG, 140 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 250 / 400 / 350
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 360 / 180 s / 2
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 410 / 2.85 / 1090000 / 2.91s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 27.5km / 920 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 8 Radar
  • Signature radius: 31
  • Cargo capacity: 115


CONDOR:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: +10% to rocket, light missile velocity and +5% damage to rocket, light missile damage per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M, 2 L, 0 turrets, 3 launchers
  • Fittings: 40 PWG, 185 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 400 / 250 / 250
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 300 / 150 s / 2
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 400 / 2.9 / 1100000 / 2.99s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 32.5km / 880 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 9 Gravimetric
  • Signature radius: 33
  • Cargo capacity: 130


ATRON:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: +5% to small hybrid turret damage and +10% to small hybrid turret fallof per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 3 M, 3 L, 3 turrets, 0 launchers
  • Fittings: 42 PWG, 147 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 300 / 350 / 400
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 330 / 165 s / 2
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 420 / 2.8 / 1050000 / 2.75s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 22.5km / 900 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 8 Magnetometric
  • Signature radius: 35
  • Cargo capacity: 145


SLASHER:

  • Frigate skill bonuses: +5% to small projectile turret damage and +7.5% to small projectile turret tracking per level
  • Role bonus: 80% reduction in Propulsion Jamming systems activation cost
  • Slot layout: 4 H, 4 M, 2 L, 3 turrets, 0 launchers
  • Fittings: 35 PWG, 135 CPU
  • Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 350 / 300 / 300
  • Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second): 240 / 120 s / 2
  • Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 430 / 2.83 / 1075000 / 2.85s
  • Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
  • Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 20km / 940 / 4
  • Sensor strength: 7 Ladar
  • Signature radius: 30
  • Cargo capacity: 120



That's all for now, constructive comments are welcome P.


These are the types of changes I would expect from a drunken Loris! What is CCP smoking up there?

/rage


P


Seriously though, they look fine to me but I'd have to ask, with those slot loadouts, why bother with a proper exploration vessel? I could see some funky passive shield regen or buffer setups on the ones with 4 mids as well.

I can has blogging skills!
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#28 - 2012-06-18 22:41:01 UTC
All of these frigates have a utility high for a nos. they all have extra mids now for small cap boosters. Why the role bonus? Just sayin'
Davion Falcon
Those Once Loyal
#29 - 2012-06-18 22:58:11 UTC
WHO ARE YOU AND WHAT HAVE YOU DONE WITH CCP?

Seriously though, good changes (the targeting range does need a look at, 20km base for the Slasher is just low). I'm glad these underused ships are getting some TLC.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise. Never forgotten, never forgiven.
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-06-18 23:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Soo, the Atron is in a completely different class than the rest of these.

Here are some stats utilizing all slots (utility nos);
eHP scales from 3200 (Atron w/ Neutrons) to 4450 (Executioner w/ DLPs)
dps scales from 90 (Rocket Condor) to 207 (Atron w/ Neutrons)
speed scales from 2900 (Exec) to 3737 (Slasher)

Fits used w/ adjusted stats (no tackle cap bonus);
http://i.imgur.com/VaFgL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ih1FE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/frYHw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MpF54.jpg

These are just example fits, but basically the Atron is amazing and the rest are pretty crap.
Doesn't matter how you fit them, the Condor is crap, and the Atron is boss.

Condor -> much bigger damage bonus (~150 kinetic rocket dps)
Executioner -> I'd swap turret cap bonus for range bonus (or do that for the Tormenter)
Slasher -> More grid/cpu, but will mean it outperforms both Interceptors (claw/stilleto), the Rifter, & Firetail.
Atron -> Scales well with the other Gallente frigates, but hugely outperforms the other 3 listed here

That about sums it up.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#31 - 2012-06-19 00:06:37 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
All of these should drop the across-the-board role bonus, switch at least one and maybe both of the gun bonuses for something that actually helps them in the interception role (velocity/prop mod cap usage/agility/sig radius/scan res/prop jamming cap usage/etc), and remove a highslot or two.


They could do that, except that's the entire design philosophy behind tech 1 ships vs tech 2 ships. Tech 1 are generalist ships that are solid but don't excel at one thing or another, Tech 2 ships are pushed further into a specialized role (such as interception).

Dropping the generalist bonuses and giving them stuff designed for tackle just turns them into, well, interceptors. That's not to say these don't need further tweaking, but they're off to a good start. I'm glad to see CCP is bringing weak ships into line with stronger ones, rather than applying the nerf bat to all the ships that function well.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary
Razgriz Shaishi
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-06-19 00:28:10 UTC
Delucian wrote:
If you would only give the Rifter back some of the guts you ripped out of it....


..not a lot, just a little lower intestine so its not such a sphincetr cincher to fly now.

Are you talking about inferno 1.0? I was pretty sure they didnt touch the rifter in that one, just the other combat frigs.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-06-19 01:17:39 UTC
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Soo, the Atron is in a completely different class than the rest of these.

Here are some stats utilizing all slots (utility nos);
eHP scales from 3200 (Atron w/ Neutrons) to 4450 (Executioner w/ DLPs)
dps scales from 90 (Rocket Condor) to 207 (Atron w/ Neutrons)
speed scales from 2900 (Exec) to 3737 (Slasher)

Fits used w/ adjusted stats (no tackle cap bonus);
http://i.imgur.com/VaFgL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ih1FE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/frYHw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MpF54.jpg

These are just example fits, but basically the Atron is amazing and the rest are pretty crap.
Doesn't matter how you fit them, the Condor is crap, and the Atron is boss.

Condor -> much bigger damage bonus (~150 kinetic rocket dps)
Executioner -> I'd swap turret cap bonus for range bonus (or do that for the Tormenter)
Slasher -> More grid/cpu, but will mean it outperforms both Interceptors (claw/stilleto), the Rifter, & Firetail.
Atron -> Scales well with the other Gallente frigates, but hugely outperforms the other 3 listed here

That about sums it up.
Wow! Those fits are just loot pinatas waiting to happen. Try again with T1 or low meta stuff for cheep tacklers, also no implants. That is how they will normally be fitted, for cheep low skilled tacklers, not the pimped out fittings that really push the envelope as you have done.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-06-19 01:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Galphii
I like the attack frigate changes, though obviously they step on the current interceptor role, so I'm guessing when it comes time to do the t2 frigates, 'ceptors are getting some love Smile

As for the Tormentor (and indeed all the soon to be ex-miner hulls), I just don't see the need for yet another combat frigate, only with bonuses that favour slightly longer range.

You've currently got:

  • Combat line ships that are supposed to be flexible between long and short range
  • Attack line ships for speed and tackle, no doubt useful at <10km and <24km
  • E-war ships for the support line
  • Missile ships that would have been in 'bombardment', but will now also be in the combat line
  • Probing ships in the support line that will probably get bonuses for mini-professions


So that's 1 attack, 2 combat and 2 support. Not including the rookie ships which will be general purpose.

There's plenty of frigate hulls to go around, so consider giving the ex-miners the logistics support role, as that is such an important part of eve combat as the player progresses through the game, and it'd be extremely useful for frigate fleets. Give them a range and cap use bonus to remote reppers, decent defensive slots and a drone or two. Simple as that Smile

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-06-19 02:27:20 UTC
Lets try to keep the discussion centered on the attack frig changes.

Looking over the stats again, im getting pretty concerned -
The ships dont even look balanced between themselves.
The Condor has the slowest speed, the highest mass, the longest align time, and the worst lock speed. Its DPS is anemic, its tied for lowest Base HP with the Exequtioner, and it has the 2nd Smallest Sig (Right under the Atron).
How is this at all balanced, espacially considering their intended role? Where Small, fast ships with great maneuverability and lock speeds are called for?
The Condor has the Least of every one of those all-importaint stats.
My prediction is that, unless things change, the Slasher and the Atron will be the only ones used. Maybe an exequtioner here and there because they look the best.

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread
Callic Veratar
#36 - 2012-06-19 02:37:34 UTC
Galphii wrote:
There's plenty of frigate hulls to go around, so consider giving the ex-miners the logistics support role, as that is such an important part of eve combat as the player progresses through the game, and it'd be extremely useful for frigate fleets. Give them a range and cap use bonus to remote reppers, decent defensive slots and a drone or two. Simple as that Smile


Given that frigates are so fragile, I'd prefer to see a logistics destroyer that can have 4 small shield transfers and 4 small guns at the same time.
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-06-19 02:41:01 UTC
Mira Lynne wrote:
Lets try to keep the discussion centered on the attack frig changes.

Looking over the stats again, im getting pretty concerned -
The ships dont even look balanced between themselves.
The Condor has the slowest speed, the highest mass, the longest align time, and the worst lock speed. Its DPS is anemic, its tied for lowest Base HP with the Exequtioner, and it has the 2nd Smallest Sig (Right under the Atron).
How is this at all balanced, espacially considering their intended role? Where Small, fast ships with great maneuverability and lock speeds are called for?
The Condor has the Least of every one of those all-importaint stats.
My prediction is that, unless things change, the Slasher and the Atron will be the only ones used. Maybe an exequtioner here and there because they look the best.
2 nanos in the lows will help, or a nano and an overdrive injector, if you want a speedier ship.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Prometheus Exenthal
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-06-19 03:03:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Prometheus Exenthal
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
Prometheus Exenthal wrote:
Soo, the Atron is in a completely different class than the rest of these.

Here are some stats utilizing all slots (utility nos);
eHP scales from 3200 (Atron w/ Neutrons) to 4450 (Executioner w/ DLPs)
dps scales from 90 (Rocket Condor) to 207 (Atron w/ Neutrons)
speed scales from 2900 (Exec) to 3737 (Slasher)

Fits used w/ adjusted stats (no tackle cap bonus);
http://i.imgur.com/VaFgL.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/Ih1FE.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/frYHw.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/MpF54.jpg

These are just example fits, but basically the Atron is amazing and the rest are pretty crap.
Doesn't matter how you fit them, the Condor is crap, and the Atron is boss.

Condor -> much bigger damage bonus (~150 kinetic rocket dps)
Executioner -> I'd swap turret cap bonus for range bonus (or do that for the Tormenter)
Slasher -> More grid/cpu, but will mean it outperforms both Interceptors (claw/stilleto), the Rifter, & Firetail.
Atron -> Scales well with the other Gallente frigates, but hugely outperforms the other 3 listed here

That about sums it up.
Wow! Those fits are just loot pinatas waiting to happen. Try again with T1 or low meta stuff for cheep tacklers, also no implants. That is how they will normally be fitted, for cheep low skilled tacklers, not the pimped out fittings that really push the envelope as you have done.



look at the market again, and ignore EFTs stupid estimations.
total fitting cost is ~10m which par for the course when T2 fitting any T1 frigate.

if you still think those are loot pinatas, then you and i are playing very different games.
ignore the implants, as they arent required for fitting.

https://www.youtube.com/user/promsrage

DO YOUR JOBS, CCP DEVS. FIX THE GAME INSTEAD OF FKING IT
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#39 - 2012-06-19 04:26:49 UTC
If they are to be tackle focused, then why not give them the Interceptor MWD signature bonus instead of the rather useless cap bonus for tackle?

If you are neuted, chances are you are hit with multiple mods and no amount of discounted activation cost will keep that point/web on (except 100% reduction Smile) .. tackle is rarely what drains cap in the first place, tank/guns/propulsion draw a lot more as does being neuted.

PS: Why are you making the Executioner that heavy/sluggish .. shouldn't it trade mobility stats with the Atron, pretty damn zippy in current iteration (ie. on TQ)? Amarr has traditionally only been "heavier" when it comes to the resist hulls or are you changing the paradigm midstream?
PPS: Who is choosing Tormentor over the Punisher for principal tackle duty (initial point), name and shame please! Smile
Jene Rollard
Order of Rouvenor
#40 - 2012-06-19 04:44:26 UTC
If Caldari are getting generic damage bonuses for missiles then that makes Gallente armour resists even worse than they are at present. Make condor +5% kinetic damage.