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Oh, how I hate collateral.
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Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#1 - 2012-06-18 03:51:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Rookie whine ahead.

This weekend, I had the pleasure of successfully moving 62 deliveries all about New Eden (longest delivery: 58 jumps) for a whopping profit of 20 million ISK.

Best moment: When I delivered a bunch of packages to Dodixie and someone sent me a mail thanking me for how quickly I’d gotten them there.

Worst moment (s): Whenever I looked at similar packages with a higher collateral.

18 Jumps through Low Sec – 300k reward – 10 million collateral
5 Jumps through High Sec – 1 million reward – 3 BILLION collateral

Why?!

I don’t have 3 billion. I’ve got 40 million. At this rate, I have to do 867 jobs before I’ll get 3 billion isk, which will allow me to make 1 m isk a job instead of 300k isk.

And the worst part is that I WILL lose a ship while carrying a package. There’s no way to avoid it if you’re doing hundreds of jobs.

Last night, someone listed a package for 1.86 m at a 40m collateral located in a .2 system. I was literally shaking as I picked it up and took it to Jita. Hauling for players feels like playing a game of Russian roulette using a gun with 100 cylinders.

Last night, someone listed a package for 1.86 m at a 40m collateral located in a .2 system. I was literally shaking as I picked it up and took it to Jita. Hauling for players feels like playing a game of Russian roulette using a gun with 100 cylinders.

And the strange thing is that I don’t find myself angry at the evil pirates who are shooting at me because they can, I find myself upset at titans of industry, who are having me risk at least 1/4ths to 3/4ths of all I own for crumbs. It’s rather frustrating for a noble, hardworking hauler such as myself.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Ersteen Hofs
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-06-18 04:07:25 UTC
because the stuff you carry is worth that much.

its' not enough that the person whose package will be blown up will lose the ISK they invested in it, which is compensated by the collateral, they will also have to go through all the trouble obtaining it again. so they lose anyway.

if there was some kind of limit on the collateral, people would probably haul everything themselves - at least you know who to blame if you lose it then.

imagine all the griefers that would pick stuff up just to blow it up if the collateral was knowingly much less than the stuff in the package worth...
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#3 - 2012-06-18 04:09:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Before anyone makes assumptions....

Yes, the last part was in jest. I don't think industrial players are evil, I suspect they're just terrified of losing a shipment and the game allows them to offload that fear as massive collateral. I don't think pirates are evil hordes of orcs, it just feels that way when you shoot at me.

I do 'fly safe.' I have warp stablizers, never autopilot, and a frigate with those rigs that increase your agility. I'm training cloaking right now.

'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose' is excellent advice, as is 'avoid low-sec,' sadly, if I only pick high-sec jobs with under 10 million collateral, I'm looking at about 90k per hour. I might as well PVE for that.

I'm aware that with a low collateral, people would take a contract just to get the stuff, and the industrialist would be SOL. I also understand there's quite a bit of inflation right now. It's a self-serving whine, as most of them are.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#4 - 2012-06-18 04:12:13 UTC
They post those low prices because people pick up contracts at those low prices.

Unionize, get better pay (i.e. join a corp).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#5 - 2012-06-18 04:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
RubyPorto wrote:
They post those low prices because people pick up contracts at those low prices.

Unionize, get better pay (i.e. join a corp).

The rewards don't bother me. If the collateral were lower, I could move 2 or 4 packages at a time, giving me a higher ISK per hour.

I am thinking about joining a PvE corp, but I'd like to find a good one. There's also the fact that I'm not sure if this is something I want to do for months to come.

But yes.... you're correct.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Trollin
Perkone
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-06-18 04:17:34 UTC
you should be upset at yourself for accepting slave work and slave wages

We are our own worst enemy.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#7 - 2012-06-18 04:20:48 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
They post those low prices because people pick up contracts at those low prices.

Unionize, get better pay (i.e. join a corp).

The rewards don't bother me. If the collateral were lower, I could move 2 or 4 packages at a time, giving me a higher ISK per hour.

I am thinking about joining a PvE corp, but I'd like to find a good one. There's also the fact that I'm not sure if this is something I want to do for months to come.

But yes.... you're correct.


Collateral is there due to the value of the package so that enterprising your haulers don't simply steal the package.

(PS: Anything makes better isk/hr than hauling. Freightering's useful because it makes good isk/effort once you get a freighter and a bil or two for collateral)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-06-18 04:21:15 UTC
Go join red frog or something if you want to actually make money hauling
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#9 - 2012-06-18 04:21:15 UTC
Trollin wrote:
you should be upset at yourself for accepting slave work and slave wages

I'm not sure I'm ready to be upset with myself over not making enough money in a game.

That said, I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Should I mine? Should I just continue to PvE? PvEing feels like I'm opting out of the game.

I do dislike the idea of quitting after one weekend.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-06-18 04:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Why don't you just do npc courier missions? They pay better.Lol

Player courier contracts, like Jita local, exist only as scams, and are not worth reading through.
Nex Parietis
Interstellar Booty Hunters
#11 - 2012-06-18 04:21:32 UTC
I have found myself taking on a courier contract out of a some random need to wander systems for an hour or so. But i have to give you kudos for jumping right into the low sec hauling while being a new character.

So for that, I will have to give you kudos on that. My first experience with low was dying in a velator on a tutorial mission and then blowing my industrial up in factional warfare.

I need to cut my teeth in pvp sometime though.
Good luck op, and fly safe.
Hermia
HIVE
Memento Moriendo
#12 - 2012-06-18 04:22:32 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Before anyone makes assumptions....

Yes, the last part was in jest. I don't think industrial players are evil, I suspect they're just terrified of losing a shipment and the game allows them to offload that fear as massive collateral. I don't think pirates are evil hordes of orcs, it just feels that way when you shoot at me.

I do 'fly safe.' I have warp stablizers, never autopilot, and a frigate with those rigs that increase your agility. I'm training cloaking right now.

'Don't fly what you can't afford to lose' is excellent advice, as is 'avoid low-sec,' sadly, if I only pick high-sec jobs with under 10 million collateral, I'm looking at about 90k per hour. I might as well PVE for that.

I'm aware that with a low collateral, people would take a contract just to get the stuff, and the industrialist would be SOL. I also understand there's quite a bit of inflation right now. It's a self-serving whine, as most of them are.


Hi Makkal,

I agree that the courier jobs you've listed are very stingy and pathetic. I didn't know people actually do courier jobs, maybe ill try it out and make sure the guys hauling my trades get at least 15%. Problem is if i stand to make 30mill on a particular trade the capital investment might be something like 200million, so i would have to make that the collateral.

If i was in your shoes i would buy a PLEX, get a basic working capital and start trading! I cant imagine how awful doing thos jobs are, especially if its as bad as you say. you will burn out fast this way.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#13 - 2012-06-18 04:23:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Makkal Hanaya
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Go join red frog or something if you want to actually make money hauling

Telling a rookie to join red frog is like telling one to go fly a battleship.

You have to have two accounts.
You must be able to pilot a freighter.

sabre906 wrote:
Why don't you just do npc courier missions? They pay better.Lol

They mostly do. I'll probably go back to doing so.

Quote:
Player courier contracts, like Jita local, exist only as scams, and are not worth reading through.

That's disheartening.

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Makkal Hanaya
Revenent Defence Corperation
#14 - 2012-06-18 04:32:44 UTC
Nex Parietis wrote:
I have found myself taking on a courier contract out of a some random need to wander systems for an hour or so. But i have to give you kudos for jumping right into the low sec hauling while being a new character.

I started with Amarr lowsec, which is safer than Caldari lowsec.

Actually, the average person I encounter in low-sec seems friendlier than those I meet around the trade hubs.

...maybe they're just trying to lower my guard. Blink

Render unto Khanid the things which are Khanid's; and unto God the things that are God's.
Ersteen Hofs
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2012-06-18 04:34:48 UTC
pay is low for small packages probably because people haul several packages at the same time using freighter or orca. so they get the worth for every m3 they got. compare the cargo hold of your hauler and a freighter and see how much will you earn when you get it, and the capital needed fort he collateral.

and 40 mil is pocket change in eve, so maybe you should try some other ways to get isk, for example mission running. sadly it's the best way to get isk for the new player since they get standing that will allow them to run lvl4s once they get the skills to do them and those earn about 20 mil isk per hour with cheap fits.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#16 - 2012-06-18 04:36:11 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Trollin wrote:
you should be upset at yourself for accepting slave work and slave wages

I'm not sure I'm ready to be upset with myself over not making enough money in a game.

That said, I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Should I mine? Should I just continue to PvE? PvEing feels like I'm opting out of the game.

I do dislike the idea of quitting after one weekend.


You can PvE for a nestegg, you can learn to trade yourself (you can roll 50m through at a pretty high rate of return), you can mine, you can scam people, you can literally do anything.

Find something that you enjoy. The rest will come.

(Oh, and if you like hauling, Push Industries has a rookie wing)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2012-06-18 04:38:05 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:
Nex Parietis wrote:
I have found myself taking on a courier contract out of a some random need to wander systems for an hour or so. But i have to give you kudos for jumping right into the low sec hauling while being a new character.

I started with Amarr lowsec, which is safer than Caldari lowsec.

Actually, the average person I encounter in low-sec seems friendlier than those I meet around the trade hubs.

...maybe they're just trying to lower my guard. Blink


There are lots of great folks living in low sec, but shooting at you is just part of the conversation to most Blink

It is difficult starting out, but there are some lucrative hauls to be had, they just tend to get snapped up pretty quickly.

Do what you enjoy, and don't worry about the isk, after awhile it'll become fairly easy to get.

best of luck to you and welcome to eve.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
BeforetheStorm90
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-06-18 04:41:32 UTC
Makkal Hanaya wrote:

5 Jumps through High Sec – 1 million reward – 3 BILLION collateral

Why?!




Perhaps it wasn't the case with this high sec order, but often times contracts with massive collateral and little reward are only there because the issuer WANTS you to die. In other words, its a scam just ignore it.

Also, why do you dislike pve? I'll admit that lv 4s in a BS incredibly boring (thats why I typically refuse to do them solo), but I found using a frig/cruiser in the lower lv missions to be quite fun. :)

Also, do pvp, otherwise you likely eventually quit regardless of what you do.
Emma Royd
Maddled Gommerils
#19 - 2012-06-18 04:54:06 UTC
I'll throw a different light on it.

Suppose I was moving mission hubs, and had collected over the years some unusual items, maybe not items that have high isk value, but items that would be difficult to replace.

While the total value of the courier contract maybe only 300mil since it's mainly ammo and a few mods, I could be tempted to put on a higher collateral for a couple of reasons.

1) To compensate me more than isk to replace the rare items.
2) To hopefully dissuade an amateur (no offence) captain who isn't that bothered about the odd chance of losing something, and encourage a more 'professional' pilot who might use scouts through dodgy areas etc.


Courier running is rubbish, it's vastly undervalued and underpaid, but while-ever people do it for the low wages then it will carry on being a low paid job.
It takes a long time flying to make any kind of isk, and even when you join one of the delivery corps, you're still going to be better off working up to missioning and running Level 4 missions than flying other peoples space stuff around Lol
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-06-18 06:13:29 UTC
I use courier contracts almost daily to ship items all across EVE. I wouldn't even consider hauling anything around highsec myself, unless I need it right away. In the time it would take me to do the hauling I could make fifty times what I have to pay the hauler. Plus if I get blown up, my stuff is gone and I'm SOL. If a courier gets blown up, I get paid, and I make money.

There are two values input when creating the contract: the collateral and the reward.

The collateral depends only on the value of items I want shipped. It is a simple insurance - if you fail (willingly or not) to ship the contract, I don't lose money. As I always overcollateralize, I actually make money if a hauler is being dumb, picks up six contracts with a billion ISK of stuff in each, and gets blown up. If I ship 500M worth of items, I will set the collateral to 550M - regardless of distance, volume, sec status, etc.

The reward is dictated by the open market, just like everything in EVE. As long as there is enough people willing to move billions of ISK and thousands of m^3 across half the galaxy for pennies, I have no rational reason to pay more. There is no hate or compassion for newbies involved, no desire to screw anyone over or throw ISK at people. Business is business.

Yes, the result in the current state of EVE is a very harsh contract market. Pretty much everything (including highsec mining) can make you more money than picking up courier contracts, if you can be at least somewhat behind the keyboard. But due to the high supply of haulers, courier contracts will always be as cheap as is the cheapest hauler willing to accept.


However don't quit just yet if you want to live the life of a space truck driver. There are heaps of ISK to be made hauling items between different trade hubs. Look for systems where people need to buy a lot of stuff - starter systems, mission hubs, nullsec entrances. See if you can find items that sell that you can buy cheaper in a trade hub and move them there for profit. The offers aren't given to you on a silver plate, but once you find out how to spot profitable trades, you will be rolling in ISK.
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