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Millions to attack, Trillions to defend?
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Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#61 - 2012-06-17 17:44:16 UTC
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free


In 1.1 patch mercenaries will need to pay the defender to play a role in wars.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#62 - 2012-06-17 17:44:29 UTC
you should just join an npc corp jade, then you can have ultimate wartime isk efficiency
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#63 - 2012-06-17 17:46:02 UTC
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free


That is a red herring. I am not arguing for free allies. That clearly needed tweaking. But when having 6 allies costs more than a plex every two weeks you are doing two things:

1) Forcing corp/alliance consolidation - breaks the sandbox

2) Remove the incentive to hire merc, which will make carebears run for neutral arts or figure out other decshield exploits - breaks the combat fun.

Its a lose for mercs, its a lose for carebears, its a lose for the sandbox. Not even the FW nullsec people win because wardecs are pretty much irrelevant to them (did Burn Jita need a wardec?)

So who wins here? No one.
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#64 - 2012-06-17 17:47:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
you should just join an npc corp jade, then you can have ultimate wartime isk efficiency


If I did that I wouldn't be able to troll your leader into losing billions in an ineffectual flailing attempt to set the "death commandos" on me.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#65 - 2012-06-17 17:48:52 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
you should just join an npc corp jade, then you can have ultimate wartime isk efficiency

Depends. If you mission or stuff the NPC corp eats taxes that disappear into the void.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#66 - 2012-06-17 17:49:56 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free


That is a red herring. I am not arguing for free allies. That clearly needed tweaking. But when having 6 allies costs more than a plex every two weeks you are doing two things:

1) Forcing corp/alliance consolidation - breaks the sandbox

2) Remove the incentive to hire merc, which will make carebears run for neutral arts or figure out other decshield exploits - breaks the combat fun.

Its a lose for mercs, its a lose for carebears, its a lose for the sandbox. Not even the FW nullsec people win because wardecs are pretty much irrelevant to them (did Burn Jita need a wardec?)

So who wins here? No one.


Funnily enough this system is a bit of a lose for FW people as well, since with Inferno 1.0 attempted selective wardeccing of particular militia corp/alliances to split up their collective efforts could be resolved via the ally system (ie the whole militia joins into the war and fights the aggressor together.) That is now completely off the table and once more its possible to disruptor militia operations by targetting specific corps and alliances amongst their number.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Commit Sudoku
Perkone
Caldari State
#67 - 2012-06-17 17:56:38 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:

I am not saying there should be fairness. Quite the contrary. I am saying there should be freedom. Freedom can be unfair.


There is freedom. Plenty of it. We just own more freedom than you.

guy on foreground: me posting guy in background: you
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#68 - 2012-06-17 17:58:05 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free


That is a red herring. I am not arguing for free allies. That clearly needed tweaking. But when having 6 allies costs more than a plex every two weeks you are doing two things:

1) Forcing corp/alliance consolidation - breaks the sandbox

2) Remove the incentive to hire merc, which will make carebears run for neutral arts or figure out other decshield exploits - breaks the combat fun.

Its a lose for mercs, its a lose for carebears, its a lose for the sandbox. Not even the FW nullsec people win because wardecs are pretty much irrelevant to them (did Burn Jita need a wardec?)

So who wins here? No one.


Funnily enough this system is a bit of a lose for FW people as well, since with Inferno 1.0 attempted selective wardeccing of particular militia corp/alliances to split up their collective efforts could be resolved via the ally system (ie the whole militia joins into the war and fights the aggressor together.) That is now completely off the table and once more its possible to disruptor militia operations by targetting specific corps and alliances amongst their number.


Which is in part why I think you are wrong Jade.

This change benefits no one. Not even the people you say it benefits.

Why blame malice when incompetence is more common?

Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#69 - 2012-06-17 18:00:27 UTC
Commit Sudoku wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:

I am not saying there should be fairness. Quite the contrary. I am saying there should be freedom. Freedom can be unfair.


There is freedom. Plenty of it. We just own more freedom than you.


I don't think that word means what you think it does.

Also, you obviously didn't read the rest of the thing. I have no problem with the goons. Every drama needs a villain.

This is a change that only really affects Empire. Why is the Goons so concerned?

Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#70 - 2012-06-17 18:41:50 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:

This is a change that only really affects Empire. Why is the Goons so concerned?



Wow, silence for the first time ever. Do I get a medal?
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#71 - 2012-06-17 19:00:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Jade Constantine wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free


That is a red herring. I am not arguing for free allies. That clearly needed tweaking. But when having 6 allies costs more than a plex every two weeks you are doing two things:

1) Forcing corp/alliance consolidation - breaks the sandbox

2) Remove the incentive to hire merc, which will make carebears run for neutral arts or figure out other decshield exploits - breaks the combat fun.

Its a lose for mercs, its a lose for carebears, its a lose for the sandbox. Not even the FW nullsec people win because wardecs are pretty much irrelevant to them (did Burn Jita need a wardec?)

So who wins here? No one.


Funnily enough this system is a bit of a lose for FW people as well, since with Inferno 1.0 attempted selective wardeccing of particular militia corp/alliances to split up their collective efforts could be resolved via the ally system (ie the whole militia joins into the war and fights the aggressor together.) That is now completely off the table and once more its possible to disruptor militia operations by targetting specific corps and alliances amongst their number.


Which is in part why I think you are wrong Jade.

This change benefits no one. Not even the people you say it benefits.

Why blame malice when incompetence is more common?



Well its a fair point. I just finished listening to the Crossing Zebra's podcast ep six

Which includes an interview with the Noire CSM guy at about 44mins that is pretty informative and does tend to support your point of view.

Worth a listen if you haven't already.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#72 - 2012-06-17 19:02:09 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
also, a real sandbox would be all about removing CONCORD
anything else is a compromise


In a real sandbox there wouldn't be concord, but then players would have control over the jump gates. Since there are more carebears than PvP'ers, this would ensure that most of space would retain hisec staus, even if once in a while systems were lost to piracy.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-06-17 19:06:25 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
also, a real sandbox would be all about removing CONCORD
anything else is a compromise



I would only agree with you if it also meant removal of sov, alliances and there was a corp population cap.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2012-06-17 19:08:12 UTC
Commit Sudoku wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:

I am not saying there should be fairness. Quite the contrary. I am saying there should be freedom. Freedom can be unfair.


There is freedom. Plenty of it. We just own more freedom than you.

I would argue that you are some of the least free people in the game.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#75 - 2012-06-17 19:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Crunchie Attuxors
Cipher Jones wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
also, a real sandbox would be all about removing CONCORD
anything else is a compromise


In a real sandbox there wouldn't be concord, but then players would have control over the jump gates. Since there are more carebears than PvP'ers, this would ensure that most of space would retain hisec staus, even if once in a while systems were lost to piracy.



Everyone has a wish list. Even do I.

That is not the point I raise. I am ready to accept the sandbox has boundaries - whatever they are.

I am not ready to accept tools in that sandbox that are broken and useless and keep me from enjoying.

Take the technium nerf controversy. However you look at it, is not about the boundaries of the sandbox, but about the tools in it being broken.

So this whole trillion isk per ally thing, or billion dollar ally thing, breaks the new wardec system, makes it worse than the previous one, and makes it worse than the previous one to all the players involved.

It benefits no one.

That is what people don't get.

If there is any unfairness here, its for all of Empire space war mechanics, defender, attacker, spectator etc.

So the "Goons R Devils" spectacles are keeping otherwise reasonable people from seeing this.

As I said, it is clear CCP punched this one in.
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2012-06-17 19:35:49 UTC
Commit Sudoku wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:

I am not saying there should be fairness. Quite the contrary. I am saying there should be freedom. Freedom can be unfair.


There is freedom. Plenty of it. We just own more freedom than you.


The Mittiani owns you now, little goon.Big smile
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#77 - 2012-06-17 19:58:17 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Commit Sudoku wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:

I am not saying there should be fairness. Quite the contrary. I am saying there should be freedom. Freedom can be unfair.


There is freedom. Plenty of it. We just own more freedom than you.


The Mittiani owns you now, little goon.Big smile


Freedom to campgate for 12 hours in exchange for a free cruiser.
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Gorn Arming
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#78 - 2012-06-17 20:20:14 UTC
Let's compromise--you can have as many defensive wardecs as you want as long as I don't have to read about each one in eve-mail.
Delen Ormand
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2012-06-17 20:45:33 UTC
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free


If all a mercenary corp can offer is the same thing a bunch of uncoordinated strangers can offer, I don't see why their trade should be protected. Surely if you're supplying a service, you need to offer something that requires more skill than average or do something that other people don't want to do? So I don't buy the argument that these changes actually help the mercenary market.
Doctor Benway Kado
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#80 - 2012-06-17 21:03:53 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:

This is a change that only really affects Empire. Why is the Goons so concerned?



Wow, silence for the first time ever. Do I get a medal?

Because your alt is posting hilarious conspiracy theories that are so bad, they got new rules added to the forum?

I am implying that you are Jade Constantine, btw.