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Millions to attack, Trillions to defend?
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Jimmy Gunsmythe
Sebiestor Tribe
#41 - 2012-06-17 00:30:25 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
also, a real sandbox would be all about removing CONCORD
anything else is a compromise


As Eve can never be a true sandbox, I wouldn't hold your breath. For the game to operate, you must have compromise.

John Hancock
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#42 - 2012-06-17 01:30:23 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Yeah of course. I take all this time making a coherent argument that explicitly places itself outside of the Dramabelisk, but I am part of the collective carebear butthurt and the tinfoil hat set.

Since we're discussing the wardec thing, I thought the "butthurt" was from the goons, not carebears?


No idea. As I pointed out, goons in this thread have either only 2/10 trolled or been nice.


Wait. I see what you did here -.-
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-06-17 01:44:49 UTC
oh no jita decbears are preventing us from doing things

*logs in neutral alt*

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#44 - 2012-06-17 02:25:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Antisocial Malkavian
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
also, a real sandbox would be all about removing CONCORD
anything else is a compromise


I second this motion

Crunchie Attuxors wrote:

stuffs



I do like how they were all "come at me bro" then when ppl did, CCP changed it so that only technium holding giant sov corps could afford TO "come at" them.

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#45 - 2012-06-17 02:25:57 UTC
Richard Desturned wrote:
oh no jita decbears are preventing us from doing things

*logs in neutral alt*


Decbear?

What is next? Bearbear?
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#46 - 2012-06-17 02:40:28 UTC
As I remember from another thread its quadrillions or quintillions, cant remember but theres a lotta zeros

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#47 - 2012-06-17 02:43:32 UTC
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Yeah of course. I take all this time making a coherent argument that explicitly places itself outside of the Dramabelisk, but I am part of the collective carebear butthurt and the tinfoil hat set.

Since we're discussing the wardec thing, I thought the "butthurt" was from the goons, not carebears?


No idea. As I pointed out, goons in this thread have either only 2/10 trolled or been nice.


Wait. I see what you did here -.-

I'm actually not sure.

On second thought, were you talking about Jade Constantine's whining over the infinite allies for free forever nerf?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#48 - 2012-06-17 02:45:43 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Crunchie Attuxors wrote:
Yeah of course. I take all this time making a coherent argument that explicitly places itself outside of the Dramabelisk, but I am part of the collective carebear butthurt and the tinfoil hat set.

Since we're discussing the wardec thing, I thought the "butthurt" was from the goons, not carebears?


No idea. As I pointed out, goons in this thread have either only 2/10 trolled or been nice.


Wait. I see what you did here -.-

I'm actually not sure.

On second thought, were you talking about Jade Constantine's whining over the infinite allies for free forever nerf?



Yep.
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
RAP ACTION HERO
#49 - 2012-06-17 03:17:39 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Indeed. But this isn't about what I can or cannot do, but about the balance of the wardec system.


Balance is achieved when you're on the right side of the blob? Is that why the defender having allies brings forth butthurt?Roll

Edit: Pyramid quoting removed - ISD Stensson


you still can, pay for it scrub

vitoc erryday
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#50 - 2012-06-17 03:49:28 UTC
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Indeed. But this isn't about what I can or cannot do, but about the balance of the wardec system.


Balance is achieved when you're on the right side of the blob? Is that why the defender having allies brings forth butthurt?Roll

Edit: Pyramid quoting removed - ISD Stensson


you still can, pay for it scrub


Because apparently EVE isnt meant to be fair for the defenders but its fine if its fair for the attackers

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#51 - 2012-06-17 04:26:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
RAP ACTION HERO wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Indeed. But this isn't about what I can or cannot do, but about the balance of the wardec system.


Balance is achieved when you're on the right side of the blob? Is that why the defender having allies brings forth butthurt?Roll

Edit: Pyramid quoting removed - ISD Stensson


you still can, pay for it scrub



Amusingly on tuesday to add the 46th defensive ally to the Star Fraction's wardec from the Goonswarm Federation its going to cost an estimated 702 Quintillion ISK. I wasn't even sure how to write that in numbers before I checked google.

Apparently it's something like 702,000,000,000,000,000,000 ISK.

Some interesting facts:

1. Default price of the Goonswarm vs SF wardec is 50m isk.

2. One of my corp mates is one of the richest individuals in Eve online and in addition to holdings in blueprints, titan parts and whatnots his ambition this year was to exceed half a trillion in liquid isk in the current account. If he achieves this lofty ambition (and if he gave me his wallet) we'd be able to sustain our defensive wardecs in Incarna 1.1 for approximately 1.5 minutes before going irrevocably broke.

3. I believe that (fiscally speaking) this is probably the most extreme nerf of anything in the history of Eve Online.

Sometimes you really have to laugh :)

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#52 - 2012-06-17 04:55:11 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Translation?


EVE is a crab bucket
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#53 - 2012-06-17 16:58:18 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:


3. I believe that (fiscally speaking) this is probably the most extreme nerf of anything in the history of Eve Online.



I don't agree with a lot of what you have said on this topic, but on this we agree. Its a mechanic breaking nerf.

Basically they introduced something, and then instead of tweaking it, they are breaking it to the point that the reason for it existing disappears.

It is basically worse than the previous mechanic. Not an improvement, but the opposite.

I do not understand how CCP could punch it in, in such a dimwitted way.
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Doctor Benway Kado
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-06-17 17:18:33 UTC
Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it...
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2012-06-17 17:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it...

I pointed it out and everyone got extremely upset and mad
Pointing out that Jade could also save money by trying to actually defend himself instead of getting highsec wardec corps looking to skirt around paying a wardec fee to fight his battles for him was met with incredulity.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#56 - 2012-06-17 17:25:33 UTC
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it...


That misses the point I am making, which is precisely forcing people to consolidate politically is breaking the sandbox. Please read the thread.

One of the spiritual predecessors to EVE, like it or not, is the old game Freelancer. Many of us play EVE for that reason. A sandbox with tools to play in the sand.

Forcing political consolidation and FW upon players who do not want to engage in it - for whatever reason - is breaking the sandbox. The metagame is part of the game, forcing to play this metagame in a certain fashion (FW and alliance mongering) is not.

If I want to make a living offering my assistance to corps at war, that is, be a merc, I don't want my business opportunities limited artificially, like this nerf does.
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Crunchie Attuxors
Always Another Corporate Venture
#57 - 2012-06-17 17:26:01 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it...

I pointed it out and everyone got extremely upset and mad
Pointing out that Jade could also save money by trying to actually defend himself instead of getting highsec wardec corps looking to skirt around paying a wardec fee to fight his battles for him was met with incredulity.


Who got mad?
Eve forums official anthem: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pudOFG5X6uA Real men tank hull. Fake women shield-tank Gallente.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#58 - 2012-06-17 17:30:50 UTC
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it...

I think one alliance work work, a bunch of allies on the list are alliances, not just corps.

But imagine if someone got in and pushed their button...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Doctor Benway Kado
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-06-17 17:34:03 UTC
You can still do all that tho? There's just wssociated with wardecs, hardly something new, and encourages defenders to be more selective in their contracts. Which I would think would be better for mercenaries - you're not trying to sell something that scrubs are giving away for free
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#60 - 2012-06-17 17:42:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Doctor Benway Kado wrote:
Has anyone pointed out that if all 46 corps combined into one, you could have them all for free? They might not even have to combine into one corps, I'm fairly sure an alliance would work. Need to SiSi it...

I pointed it out and everyone got extremely upset and mad
Pointing out that Jade could also save money by trying to actually defend himself instead of getting highsec wardec corps looking to skirt around paying a wardec fee to fight his battles for him was met with incredulity.



Well the whole point of the counter to the goon wardec was to allow people to easily get involved with the war without needing to break up their own corps and alliances and to simply fight the people they wanted to fight.

The essence of wardec finesse in eve online is never to spend more (money/effort) on the fighting of the war than one's enemy spends (otherwise you've already kinda lost)

Goonswarm spends 50m isk with zero leadership effort and the participation of whatever random stealthbomber pilots want to cruise around empire. And counter that costs more than that in terms of effort/mone would be losing by default.

Hence converting a diverse group of hisec heroes who want to gank goons in hisec into some kind of single alliance entity or single corp entity would be spending massively disproportionate effort (and thus losing regardless of the outcome in space).

This is never been about me "saving money" - I don't intend to spend 1 isk on fighting this war to be quite honest. Until such point the wardec system is improved so that the attacker risks something significant in these wars there is literally no point investing one's own money in the thing (its the very definition of getting trolled.).

As also pointed out - trying to do a defensive alliance and bring in all the separate wardec interested corps under one structure would run a massive risk of cheap goon infiltration and alliance disband giving you guys the option for a 1b isk kill of the alliance structure which would probably be your biggest "kill" of the campaign. Without CCP providing new tools to secure alliances (like for example being able to choose to create a truly dictatorial alliance with no executor voting) then this will never be a valid option for a disparate coalition of allies.

End of the day its all about efficiency of effort.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom