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Rockets weigh less than dog tags.... WHAT!?

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#41 - 2012-06-16 09:29:41 UTC
Imagine what would happen if ammunition took up the space that you'd expect it to. Rather than a 0.05m long round for your 3500mm artillery, what if that round was actually 8m long. No longer would you be able to haul hundreds of thousands of them in a freighter. Each shell is 77m3 or so, limiting your freighter to carrying 10,000 rounds.

A fleet on the move would require a caravan of freighters following it around carrying replacement ammunition. The rate of advance of your battlefront would be restricted by logistics. An inordinate amount of time in a war would be consumed in simply moving stuff around. Having a mining fleet near the battlefront would become a serious consideration. Nullsec alliances might end up in the situation of wanting to recruit industrial corporations specifically for the purpose of keeping the supply chain up and running. Keep that conveyer belt running, carrying ammunition to the front line as fast as the fleet of dreadnoughts and battleships is chewing it up.

There might even be the possibility for specialist freighters or carriers, designed specifically to store large volumes of ammunition in close proximity to the actual combat. Someone needs more ammo? Tender warps to them, loads up their ammo bay, then scuttles off to the safe spot.

Sounds nice to me.

Even better, there would be no need to provide game-mechanic bonuses to industry in null sec, since the bonus of having industry in null sec close to the point of consumption is all the benefit you need.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Rashmika Clavain
Revelation Space
#42 - 2012-06-16 09:37:58 UTC
Private Pineapple wrote:
The volume of twenty (20) rockets is 0.1 m3.

The volume of one (1) insignia is 0.1 m3.

Are the rockets the size of an ant or something?

Also, rockets are two (2) meters long.



It's not one dog tag, it's one PILE of dog tags, collected from all the bodies :) One pile of dog tags takes up the same space as 20 rockets. Kinda like one pound of feathers being equal to one pound of iron Lol
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#43 - 2012-06-16 13:19:55 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Imagine what would happen if ammunition took up the space that you'd expect it to. Rather than a 0.05m long round for your 3500mm artillery, what if that round was actually 8m long. No longer would you be able to haul hundreds of thousands of them in a freighter. Each shell is 77m3 or so, limiting your freighter to carrying 10,000 rounds.

A fleet on the move would require a caravan of freighters following it around carrying replacement ammunition. The rate of advance of your battlefront would be restricted by logistics. An inordinate amount of time in a war would be consumed in simply moving stuff around. Having a mining fleet near the battlefront would become a serious consideration. Nullsec alliances might end up in the situation of wanting to recruit industrial corporations specifically for the purpose of keeping the supply chain up and running. Keep that conveyer belt running, carrying ammunition to the front line as fast as the fleet of dreadnoughts and battleships is chewing it up.

There might even be the possibility for specialist freighters or carriers, designed specifically to store large volumes of ammunition in close proximity to the actual combat. Someone needs more ammo? Tender warps to them, loads up their ammo bay, then scuttles off to the safe spot.

Sounds nice to me.

Even better, there would be no need to provide game-mechanic bonuses to industry in null sec, since the bonus of having industry in null sec close to the point of consumption is all the benefit you need.


That sounds freaking AWESOME.

Horribly inconvenient, and a MASSIVE buff to Amarr ships and Carriers, but it would be a spectacular sight.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#44 - 2012-06-17 01:48:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
RubyPorto wrote:
Horribly inconvenient, and a MASSIVE buff to Amarr ships and Carriers, but it would be a spectacular sight.


Only a buff if T1 crystals remain indestructible and small :)

There should be no indestructible goods in the game: laser crystals, clothes, anything.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#45 - 2012-06-17 01:57:05 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Horribly inconvenient, and a MASSIVE buff to Amarr ships and Carriers, but it would be a spectacular sight.


Only a buff if T1 crystals remain indestructible and small :)

There should be no indestructible goods in the game: laser crystals, clothes, anything.


Then that would fix my only real problem with it. I mean the horrible inconvenience would suck, to be sure, but it's such a cool idea. Real, important supply trains that can be attacked and must be protected. The return of Convoys, but as a combat necessity rather than a necessity of daily life.

Mobile manufacturing (or pre-set advance POSes for resupply).


Biggest problems I see with it:

While amazingly cool, it's not really fun with the ships currently available.

That lack of fun comes from effectively enforced non-combatants in the warzone. And Convoy duty.

Increased Nullsec Stagnation. The harder it is to be mobile, the harder it is to go on the offensive (and defending powers would likely keep huge ammunition stockpiles everywhere [an offline ship assembly array or two full, say]). So defensive powers would also have the advantage of more pilots due to needing less convoying.

It's a Supercarrier Buff.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-06-17 02:02:08 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Imagine what would happen if ammunition took up the space that you'd expect it to. Rather than a 0.05m long round for your 3500mm artillery, what if that round was actually 8m long. No longer would you be able to haul hundreds of thousands of them in a freighter. Each shell is 77m3 or so, limiting your freighter to carrying 10,000 rounds.

A fleet on the move would require a caravan of freighters following it around carrying replacement ammunition. The rate of advance of your battlefront would be restricted by logistics. An inordinate amount of time in a war would be consumed in simply moving stuff around. Having a mining fleet near the battlefront would become a serious consideration. Nullsec alliances might end up in the situation of wanting to recruit industrial corporations specifically for the purpose of keeping the supply chain up and running. Keep that conveyer belt running, carrying ammunition to the front line as fast as the fleet of dreadnoughts and battleships is chewing it up.

There might even be the possibility for specialist freighters or carriers, designed specifically to store large volumes of ammunition in close proximity to the actual combat. Someone needs more ammo? Tender warps to them, loads up their ammo bay, then scuttles off to the safe spot.

Sounds nice to me.

Even better, there would be no need to provide game-mechanic bonuses to industry in null sec, since the bonus of having industry in null sec close to the point of consumption is all the benefit you need.


Kind of reminds me about Mortal Online. Basically this game is a 3D version of Ultima Online. So you would have a limited inventory space and you couldn't carry everything in the world. I'd like ammo to weigh more so it's more "realistic" but then again you have to think about that... 'some dude's name' tech that makes jetcans be able to hold 27500 m3 of stuff while not being even close to that actual size. So CCP could update the description on every item to take up more space but they could also say "ah, 'some dude's name' tech has been incorporated into the cargohold of all ships so now yall can hold more stuff!".

.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-06-17 02:51:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Mara Rinn wrote:
Imagine what would happen if ammunition took up the space that you'd expect it to. Rather than a 0.05m long round for your 3500mm artillery, what if that round was actually 8m long. No longer would you be able to haul hundreds of thousands of them in a freighter. Each shell is 77m3 or so, limiting your freighter to carrying 10,000 rounds.

A fleet on the move would require a caravan of freighters following it around carrying replacement ammunition. The rate of advance of your battlefront would be restricted by logistics. An inordinate amount of time in a war would be consumed in simply moving stuff around. Having a mining fleet near the battlefront would become a serious consideration. Nullsec alliances might end up in the situation of wanting to recruit industrial corporations specifically for the purpose of keeping the supply chain up and running. Keep that conveyer belt running, carrying ammunition to the front line as fast as the fleet of dreadnoughts and battleships is chewing it up.

There might even be the possibility for specialist freighters or carriers, designed specifically to store large volumes of ammunition in close proximity to the actual combat. Someone needs more ammo? Tender warps to them, loads up their ammo bay, then scuttles off to the safe spot.

Sounds nice to me.

Even better, there would be no need to provide game-mechanic bonuses to industry in null sec, since the bonus of having industry in null sec close to the point of consumption is all the benefit you need.

What if the ship cargoholds were realistic as well? If a mere 10% of the volume of a freighter was viable storage space, a Charon would be able to hold more like 785 MILLION cubic meters of cargo. Then it could carry 10,000,000 rounds of artillery ammo. Also, artillery ammo should be larger than autocannon ammo--they should be separate ammo types. Capital artillery should be pretty slow-firing, so I'd imagine a freighter-full of the stuff could supply an entire fleet of Naglfars for multiple POS sieges, maybe even several weeks of successive sieging.

[edit] furthermore, I have trouble believing that a quad 3500mm artillery cannon can reload and fire again in only 35 seconds. And wouldn't it use 4 rounds per shot?

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#48 - 2012-06-17 03:25:12 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:

What if the ship cargoholds were realistic as well? If a mere 10% of the volume of a freighter was viable storage space, a Charon would be able to hold more like 785 MILLION cubic meters of cargo. Then it could carry 10,000,000 rounds of artillery ammo. Also, artillery ammo should be larger than autocannon ammo--they should be separate ammo types. Capital artillery should be pretty slow-firing, so I'd imagine a freighter-full of the stuff could supply an entire fleet of Naglfars for multiple POS sieges, maybe even several weeks of successive sieging.

[edit] furthermore, I have trouble believing that a quad 3500mm artillery cannon can reload and fire again in only 35 seconds. And wouldn't it use 4 rounds per shot?


There's a problem in rocket science called the beer can problem. It describes the relationship between the total mass of a spaceship and it's payload mass.

Here's how it goes:

Imagine a full beer can is a spaceship. Then the can's skin is the spaceship's structure, the beer is the fuel, and the pop tab is the payload.

The Saturn V massed 3,000,000kg at liftoff. It's empty mass was 177,000kg. It was capable of lifting 45,000kg to TLI (trans-lunar injection), where the Command Service Module took over.

The CSM massed 30,000kg when full. The Service module massed around 6,000kg empty. It used its 18,000kg of fuel to get the Command Module, massing 5,560kg, and Lunar Module, massing 15,000kg to the Moon.

Of the 15,000kg LM, 10,000kg were used for descent. Of the 4,700kg mass of the ascent stage, 2,600kg were fuel.

So, of the 3,000,000kg of Saturn V, 2,000kg* were the payload that was used to perform work on the Moon, 192,000kg were the stuff to hold the fuel, and the last 2,806,000kg were fuel. And the Moon is close by.

*Well, really the payload to the Moon was the 2 astronauts and their scientific equipment, but we'll include the house to pad the payload definition. If we didn't the payload would have been something like 140kg of Astronaut and 3-400kg of scientific equipment.

A Charon masses 1.2 billion kg. That's 400 times the mass of a Saturn V. Assuming a similar proportion applies to payload, it should be able to carry 800,000kg of cargo on a course with the same ∆V as a trip from the earth to the moon. Assuming your cargo has the density of water, that's 800m3. Assuming the cargo has the density of oxygen (at standard T&P), that's 560,000m3.

Of Course, EvE's ships are different, but it's fun to think about just how different. They slow down when you turn the engine off. Their cargo is limited by volume, not mass (as if strapping stuff to the roof of a freighter would harm its space-worthiness). The're stupendously efficient in their mass:payload ratio.

In other words, calling for the cargo holds to be realistic isn't really calling for them to be made *bigger.*

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Jonni Favorite
Red Slice Enterprise
#49 - 2012-06-17 03:43:37 UTC
They should redo the whole concept of ammo. Ammo should have its dedicated holding space unrelated to normal cargo and perhaps any extra might fit into specialized cartridges, which occupy a certain space full or not.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-06-17 08:17:17 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
A Charon masses 1.2 billion kg. That's 400 times the mass of a Saturn V. Assuming a similar proportion applies to payload

In EVE, the ships have vastly more powerful propulsion systems, so they can get the energy to propel a freighter with only a fraction of its volume dedicated to engines and fuel. This is why the ship doesn't look like a giant fuel tank with engines strapped to it. So, my point still applies. If it didn't, EVE would be all about GETTING into warp, and building a space empire would be a pipe dream.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#51 - 2012-06-17 13:37:31 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
A Charon masses 1.2 billion kg. That's 400 times the mass of a Saturn V. Assuming a similar proportion applies to payload

In EVE, the ships have vastly more powerful propulsion systems, so they can get the energy to propel a freighter with only a fraction of its volume dedicated to engines and fuel. This is why the ship doesn't look like a giant fuel tank with engines strapped to it. So, my point still applies. If it didn't, EVE would be all about GETTING into warp, and building a space empire would be a pipe dream.


RubyPorto wrote:
Of Course, EvE's ships are different, but it's fun to think about just how different. They slow down when you turn the engine off. Their cargo is limited by volume, not mass (as if strapping stuff to the roof of a freighter would harm its space-worthiness). The're stupendously efficient in their mass:payload ratio.


Would'ja just look at that. How wonderful you must feel to be jumping for joy that you found someone's mistake.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#52 - 2012-06-17 13:38:12 UTC
Jonni Favorite wrote:
They should redo the whole concept of ammo. Ammo should have its dedicated holding space unrelated to normal cargo and perhaps any extra might fit into specialized cartridges, which occupy a certain space full or not.


It does have a dedicated holding space. That's why you don't reload after every shot.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
stoicfaux
#53 - 2012-06-17 14:05:21 UTC
This is Teh Future™. Dog tags are NOT those silly little nameplates on a necklaces that we have today. In Teh Future™ "dog tags" are actually microchips embedded in various bones of peoples' anatomy (because bone embedded microchips survive better than silly nameplates on a necklace.) Thus Eve "dog tags" are actually body parts with the chips embedded in them. You don't want to extract the dog tags from the bones because the risk of destroying them is too great, plus if you have DNA embedded meat from the owner to go along with the dog tags, you won't get accused of manufacturing fake microchips. (Fakes are a problem given the high value they have.)

Since dead body parts are classified as a bio-hazard, you have to put them in special Bio-You-No-Touch!-Hazard™ brand styrofoam coolers, err containment units (Dow lobbyists still exist in Teh Future™) and styrofoam, as we all know, is quite bulky (but light.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Noddy Comet
Lysdexic Agnostics - Thier is no Dog
#54 - 2012-06-17 14:12:39 UTC
600kg Homeless.

They must have ate their home....

[i]"The biggest problem with quotes on the Internet, is that just because it's on the Internet too many believe them to be real" -[/i]Abraham Lincoln's "Berlin Wall" speech at the 1984 Winter Olympics.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#55 - 2012-06-17 14:19:04 UTC
I always wondered how sufficient armor to cover a Titan in 1600mm of plate fits into a 50 cu m package.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#56 - 2012-06-17 14:22:12 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
I always wondered how sufficient armor to cover a Titan in 1600mm of plate fits into a 50 cu m package.


You misunderstand the module. It's a 1600mm thick armor plate the size of a dinner plate. It doesn't cover the teeh-tan. The ship manufacturers have simply made a gentleman's pact to set their targeting computers to always aim for it when it's there. Wrecking shots are actually mistakes when the computer misses by just a little.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Constable Chang
#57 - 2012-06-17 15:10:13 UTC
Jonni Favorite wrote:
They should redo the whole concept of ammo. Ammo should have its dedicated holding space unrelated to normal cargo and perhaps any extra might fit into specialized cartridges, which occupy a certain space full or not.


In 'real world' warships, ammo is not generally stored in 'cargo' space, its kept in specially prepared areas of the ship. Safe areas, where if the ammo blows up it shouldn't sink the ship. Its called the 'magazine'. They have blast resistant airlocks, warhead and charge are stored separately, etc.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#58 - 2012-06-17 15:25:59 UTC
Kaikka Carel wrote:
Female corpses weight 200kg go figure...


Whaaaaat????


You just broke the myth of space barbies...I'm sad now Cry
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#59 - 2012-06-17 16:06:10 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Kaikka Carel wrote:
Female corpses weight 200kg go figure...


Whaaaaat????


You just broke the myth of space barbies...I'm sad now Cry


Hi Mittens
Hi Chribba!
Do you wanna go for a ride?
Sure Chribba!
Jump In...

I'm a pod pilot, in the egger world
Life in pod goo, it's fantastic!
you can shoot my ship, scam me everywhere
Imagination, EvE is your creation
Come on egger, let's go ganking!

I'm a pod pilot, in the egger world
Life in pod goo, it's fantastic!
you can shoot my ship, scam me everywhere
Imagination, EvE is your creation

I'm a girl nude in goo, in the sci-fi world
Fit me up, make it tight, I'm your rifter
You're my pod, rock'n'roll, feel the cannon in rust,
shoot me here, scram me there, hanky panky...
You can shoot, you can web, if you say: "pay up or die"

I'm a pod pilot, in the egger world
Life in pod goo, it's fantastic!
you can shoot my ship, scam me everywhere
Imagination, EvE is your creation

Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(Ah-ah-ah-yeah)
Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(uu-oooh-u)
Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(Ah-ah-ah-yeah)
Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(uu-oooh-u)

Make me walk, make me fly, do whatever you please
I can hide out at range, I can brawl in the fray
Come jump in, egger friend, let us do it again,
hit the gate, fool around, let's go ganking
You can shoot, you can web, if you say: "pay up or die"
You can shoot, you can web, if you say: "pay up or die"

Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(Ah-ah-ah-yeah)
Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(uu-oooh-u)
Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(Ah-ah-ah-yeah)
Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(uu-oooh-u)

I'm a pod pilot, in the egger world
Life in pod goo, it's fantastic!
you can shoot my ship, scam me everywhere
Imagination, EvE is your creation

I'm a pod pilot, in the egger world
Life in pod goo, it's fantastic!
you can shoot my ship, scam me everywhere
Imagination, EvE is your creation

Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(Ah-ah-ah-yeah)
Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(uu-oooh-u)
Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(Ah-ah-ah-yeah)
Come on egger, let's go ganking!
(uu-oooh-u)

Oh, I'm having so much fun!
Well Mittens, we're just getting started
Oh, I love you Chribba!

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Sarah Schneider
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#60 - 2012-06-17 16:31:36 UTC
Valerie Tessel wrote:
Obviously tags from exploded ships are highly radioactive and must be stored in individual containment units.

Probably the only almost logical explanation to this 'problem'.

"I'd rather have other players get shot by other players than not interacting with others" -CCP Soundwave