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T2 Ammo and Missions
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Hans Zwaardhandler
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#1 - 2012-06-16 18:10:13 UTC
One thing that I have a habit of seeing on a site like Battleclinic or other websites of the sort is seeing fittings set up with Fury or Rage missiles, and yet the fellow corp mates that I talk to and others prefer a lower DPS rate compared to shilling out for higher amounts of the t2 ammo. Am I missing something here? Is t2 ammo actually viable for pve or is that a misconception?
Byron Squared
FCI Solvents
#2 - 2012-06-16 18:59:52 UTC
Depends on the ship/situation. T2 ammo gives great stats to show off on Battleclinic so everyone quotes either T2 or faction ammo. The negatives of T2 ammo frequently mean that faction ammo is better if you are going to shell out the money. I frequently prefer the speed and use T2/faction ammo but others disagree. Also, it is easy to get T2/faction in high sec so it is used more frequently than in 0.0 where logistics are a pain (T1 can be made on site).

Specifics: Favorite guns: T2 tachyon. Gleam = slightly higher DPS than INMF at half the range but with 25% tracking bonus so yes, I carry it and use it occasionally.

T2 pulse: Scorch is AWESOME. Short range ammo is slighly higher dps but the tracking sucks - I don't use it.

For Cruise Missiles just use CN if you want the extra damage/cost. I don't use Fury/Rage

For torps the Javelin torps are essential - so yes, use T2. Short range T2 torps are for shooting structures if you want to bother in that setting.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#3 - 2012-06-17 03:09:09 UTC
Scorch is a must have. Barrage is situational but nice. Null is pretty much required if you're actually going to use blasters. All T2 short range/high damage ammo is good under a narrow set of circumstances -- but it's pretty narrow in PvE. Mostly good on undersized ships.

On the missile side, unguided need Javelin to get adequate range. Rage is rarely worthwhile. Precision is still crap for the most part, but some Tengu users swear by it for spider drones. Fury cruise are pretty bad, but Fury heavies are excellent in PvE as you're usually going to be shooting lots of hp in BSs.

Long range turrets... well, you don't need T2 ammo on any of them. The long range variants give you more range than is usually useful. The short range/high damage/tracking bonused ammo is newly useful (it used to be tracking penalized instead) but you have to know your ship pretty well to want to get to ranges where it's appropriate. Tracking-bonused hulls make the most of it (Megathrons and Nightmares mostly).

As for cost effectiveness: pretty much anything that lets you complete missions faster is cost effective. Keep in mind that T2 ammo is also cheaper than faction ammo and that is usually worthwhile.
EvEa Deva
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-06-17 03:17:57 UTC
I use T2 ammo for missions and anoms, but ive been finding myself using sentry drones more and more due to no ammo cost.

On some ships ( like amarr ships ) you kinda need T2 like scorch to get the decent range.
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#5 - 2012-06-17 07:58:17 UTC
with cruise missiles fury ftw! just need rigs + painters, otherwise might as well be using torps (might want to swap to faction ammo for elite cruisers as they can be a bit of a pita).

with heavy missiles fury is also pretty damn nice and can use it without problems on nearly everything. if you make the npc frigs use their mwds and hit them with a fury at the same time it works very nicely. although if they are in orbit around you probably want to hit them with t1 or faction missiles just to get em down quickly.

rage torps are a bit harder to use need a lot of painters on battleships. they are however great for shooting structures with a bunch of hp (usually carry about 1000 in my golem just for that).

and remember higher dps -> faster kill speed -> higher isk/hour. faction/t2 ammo usually increases kill speed enough that it leads to a higher isk/hour number than t1 ammo.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#6 - 2012-06-17 13:51:58 UTC
Hail can be nice in some PvE situations. (Last I tested, it was a wash with angel anoms)
Void is similar. (Vindi with Void and Heavy Drones can poop out 2k DPS at a range perfect for Serp anoms)

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Hans Zwaardhandler
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#7 - 2012-06-17 17:29:33 UTC
Ah, I see. I had been advised prior to this question that t1 ammo was the best for pve situations in missions, anoms, incursions, etc. But from what I understand now, it can help you go through it faster and increase profits, but only for certain situations and ammos. If I may ask, what is the standing on t2 railgun charges like Spike and Javelin L, as well as Quake L?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#8 - 2012-06-17 17:44:19 UTC
Hans Zwaardhandler wrote:
Ah, I see. I had been advised prior to this question that t1 ammo was the best for pve situations in missions, anoms, incursions, etc. But from what I understand now, it can help you go through it faster and increase profits, but only for certain situations and ammos. If I may ask, what is the standing on t2 railgun charges like Spike and Javelin L, as well as Quake L?


Railguns are terrible and Arty is terrible for PvE.

Generally speaking, ofc

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#9 - 2012-06-17 19:12:13 UTC
Hans Zwaardhandler wrote:
Ah, I see. I had been advised prior to this question that t1 ammo was the best for pve situations in missions, anoms, incursions, etc. But from what I understand now, it can help you go through it faster and increase profits, but only for certain situations and ammos. If I may ask, what is the standing on t2 railgun charges like Spike and Javelin L, as well as Quake L?


Spike L is a waste on most setups; you just can't target that far unless you fit for it. Javelin L is nice on ships where you don't mind getting close. Some Dominix fits can do this. Megathrons with their inherent tracking bonus can do neat things with it.
Kalli Brixzat
#10 - 2012-06-18 03:29:53 UTC
T2/Faction ammo may be worthwhile for anoms, but probably wasteful for regular missions. The increased performance of advanced ammo offers a marginal benefit vs. cost in regular missions because completion time would not be significantly increased, while your profit margin would be affected considerably.

I know a guy that uses faction ammo for L4 blitzing in null (cov-ops Tengu). He claims that it is totally worth it because even the most marginal DPS increase allows him to get through triggers faster - which is the point of blitzing. With the increased rewards from null-sec missions, perhaps the use of advanced/expensive ammo is worthwhile.

Otherwise, totally not worth the isk.
Sobaan Tali
Caldari Quick Reaction Force
#11 - 2012-06-18 10:50:55 UTC
Been using a tengu for ages now. Furry is a must have, but I only use it on BS/BC. Cruisers and below get the standard treatment. I am one of those who has in the past used precision on spider drones, yes, but since getting missile imps it's hardly worth the extra ten second reload even on them. I have done a few missions with a CNR (Javs for torps = happy things) and a Machariel (still haven't really tried T2 ammo for that yet), but I have mostly stuck with the tried and true tengu.

Btw, is it just me or doesn't the tengu look like a robot kitty when you stare at the front up close (w/ a dissolution sequencer).

"Tomahawks?"

"----in' A, right?"

"Trouble is, those things cost like a million and a half each."

"----, you pay me half that and I'll hump in some c4 and blow the ---- out of it my own damn self."
Byron Squared
FCI Solvents
#12 - 2012-06-19 01:15:23 UTC
Kalli Brixzat wrote:
T2/Faction ammo may be worthwhile for anoms, but probably wasteful for regular missions. The increased performance of advanced ammo offers a marginal benefit vs. cost in regular missions because completion time would not be significantly increased, while your profit margin would be affected considerably.

I know a guy that uses faction ammo for L4 blitzing in null (cov-ops Tengu). He claims that it is totally worth it because even the most marginal DPS increase allows him to get through triggers faster - which is the point of blitzing. With the increased rewards from null-sec missions, perhaps the use of advanced/expensive ammo is worthwhile.

Otherwise, totally not worth the isk.



Sorry, but you are just wrong. Can't speak for missiles as much but for lasers, it is TOTALLY worth it. 5% improvement in completion times is pessimistic (almost 20% increase in DPS is probably closer to 10% improvement in completion times, even with flying back and forth to station) and I go through a set of crystals every 20 missions if I had to guess. So 4 million (Nightmare) in crystals for 1-2 extra missions (at ~15 million/each?). And the difference in speed is even bigger for high DPS missions like Blockade, Mining Misappropriations, etc. And that ignores non-raw dps damage advantages of T2 ammo like better tracking.


Also note, for raw killing speed 20% increase in damage is >20% decrease in time shooting since damage done is really DPS-tank. So if the tank on a rat is 200 dps and you do 800 dps vs 960 dps it is net of 600 vs 760 or >25% increase in net damage done to ship..
Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-06-19 15:25:25 UTC
Byron Squared wrote:
Depends on the ship/situation. T2 ammo gives great stats to show off on Battleclinic so everyone quotes either T2 or faction ammo. The negatives of T2 ammo frequently mean that faction ammo is better if you are going to shell out the money. I frequently prefer the speed and use T2/faction ammo but others disagree. Also, it is easy to get T2/faction in high sec so it is used more frequently than in 0.0 where logistics are a pain (T1 can be made on site).

Specifics: Favorite guns: T2 tachyon. Gleam = slightly higher DPS than INMF at half the range but with 25% tracking bonus so yes, I carry it and use it occasionally.

T2 pulse: Scorch is AWESOME. Short range ammo is slighly higher dps but the tracking sucks - I don't use it.

For Cruise Missiles just use CN if you want the extra damage/cost. I don't use Fury/Rage

For torps the Javelin torps are essential - so yes, use T2. Short range T2 torps are for shooting structures if you want to bother in that setting.


Excellent summery.

I might add to this and other posts:
For Kronos and Vindi Javelin is very helpful on rail setups not only for the damage increase but the tracking increase as well. With the hybrid changes it actually makes them very capable mission platforms.
Spineker
#14 - 2012-06-19 18:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
No way I would run missions without T2 ammo. The damage and time is far worth it.

Faction ammo is worthless by virtue of its cost.


I generally make 100000 T2 Scourge Heavy missiles for fraction of market price with just 3 planets making the most expensive part Rocket Fuel. T2 blueprints are cheap enough. I forgot my cost per missile but it was 200ish or so building my own. Why spend 600 to 700 per round????? When you can setup production in just a few days.

Oh and I kill frigs with T2 without any issue. On some missions I will have some precisions on board. Such as Enemy Abound/World Collide for the Serp Room with all the webbing never a problem, one shot Guardians takes couple volley for those little bastards forget their name but smack them all.


Also before I built my own ammo I bought T2 in mass off the market. Anyone who says T2 is not worth it has not been running missions very long or live in lala land. Just think 1000 battle ship kills and you finished them with 1 to 2 volley less lets just say 15 seconds faster .... you get the point about 4 hours less killing. Significant if you are a serious mission runner.
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-06-19 20:21:12 UTC
rocket fuel you say...

I should buy an Ishtar.
Spineker
#16 - 2012-06-20 07:16:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
Yeah umm did I spell it wrong for you are something, too complicated to follow?

per 5000 missiles

RAM 1 -7.5%

30
Megacyte

5
Morphite

22
Nocxium

10,112
Tritanium

19
Zydrine

12
Phenolic Composites

9
Graviton Pulse Generator

80
Rocket Fuel
Daniel Plain
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-06-20 07:29:27 UTC
chill out bro, i was just contemplating putting my PI bimbos to use.

I should buy an Ishtar.
Hans Zwaardhandler
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#18 - 2012-06-20 17:22:47 UTC
Ah, I see that people have some very big opinions on this stuff.

The reason why I am asking is because as of late, I have been contemplating using t2 ammo in anoms and missions and the sort, and was wondering if they were worth it. Earlier, I had sold my Rokh for cash, and before I set in for a long haul for some t2 railgun skills or any t2 turrent skills, I was hoping to ask around if the tech two ammo was worth it, especially for railgun setups on the Rokh, for artillery batteries on the Maelstrom, and for Torpedo and Cruise launchers on the Scorpion and Raven respectively.
Janus Varg
Smoke Jaguars
#19 - 2012-06-20 17:52:02 UTC
Speaking of... anyone know if Hail puts out enough damage to be better than regular ammo with NPC specific damage types (besides explosive)?
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#20 - 2012-06-21 01:16:37 UTC
Janus Varg wrote:
Speaking of... anyone know if Hail puts out enough damage to be better than regular ammo with NPC specific damage types (besides explosive)?


Yes, I know.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon