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New Haulers [sub cap]
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Max Therion
Jita Ikami Bank
#1 - 2012-06-15 19:12:01 UTC
Seriously CCP,

We've got Freighters that are just big fat ass empire gank targets.
We've got Orca's which are considered a capital and thus still slow as ass, again.
And we've got the usual haulers that honestly are great, however carry far to little and you only have the choice to tank it or expand it, so...

EVE's almost 10 years old now (production) so isn't it about time that you make a ship that gives haulers some much needed love? A ship that's NOT a capital class which can haul something on the order of 100,000m3 without expanders that you can mod with a tank or whatever floats your ship.

The stuff producers make keeps EVE's market running and gives PvP'ers stuff to shoot at /shoot with. Isn't it about time, after 10 years, that all the EVE technology floating around allow you to give some love to the haulers without whom everything would reside in only a few systems?

It would also give gankers a new target, hey this is a no brainer, a win-win for everyone!

Go DEVS...
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#2 - 2012-06-15 20:12:43 UTC
Max Therion wrote:
Seriously CCP,

We've got Freighters that are just big fat ass empire gank targets.
We've got Orca's which are considered a capital and thus still slow as ass, again.
And we've got the usual haulers that honestly are great, however carry far to little and you only have the choice to tank it or expand it, so...

EVE's almost 10 years old now (production) so isn't it about time that you make a ship that gives haulers some much needed love? A ship that's NOT a capital class which can haul something on the order of 100,000m3 without expanders that you can mod with a tank or whatever floats your ship.

The stuff producers make keeps EVE's market running and gives PvP'ers stuff to shoot at /shoot with. Isn't it about time, after 10 years, that all the EVE technology floating around allow you to give some love to the haulers without whom everything would reside in only a few systems?

It would also give gankers a new target, hey this is a no brainer, a win-win for everyone!

Go DEVS...



As a industry person, i'd expect you had done the math.

Carry >1b and the freighter isn't worth it to gank.

problem solved.

Now, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

Security, speed, cargo size. Pick two.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#3 - 2012-06-16 03:11:17 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Max Therion wrote:
Seriously CCP,

We've got Freighters that are just big fat ass empire gank targets.
We've got Orca's which are considered a capital and thus still slow as ass, again.
And we've got the usual haulers that honestly are great, however carry far to little and you only have the choice to tank it or expand it, so...

EVE's almost 10 years old now (production) so isn't it about time that you make a ship that gives haulers some much needed love? A ship that's NOT a capital class which can haul something on the order of 100,000m3 without expanders that you can mod with a tank or whatever floats your ship.

The stuff producers make keeps EVE's market running and gives PvP'ers stuff to shoot at /shoot with. Isn't it about time, after 10 years, that all the EVE technology floating around allow you to give some love to the haulers without whom everything would reside in only a few systems?

It would also give gankers a new target, hey this is a no brainer, a win-win for everyone!

Go DEVS...



As a industry person, i'd expect you had done the math.

Carry >1b and the freighter isn't worth it to gank.

problem solved.

Now, you don't get to have your cake and eat it too.

Security, speed, cargo size. Pick two.

Jump freighters: Secure, fast and large cargo.

Nerf JFs.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Max Therion
Jita Ikami Bank
#4 - 2012-06-16 19:29:11 UTC
Pink,

I hear ya on the less than 1b load thing, however sometimes it's nice to be able to fit mods to a ship... right? That's the whole idea I'm putting forward here; a cargo ship that's not a cap but can haul more than a fricken Indy Lv5 with maxed expanders/rigs.

Would you ever want to haul 100-200K in a ship with either a tank or WCSs?
Max Therion
Jita Ikami Bank
#5 - 2012-06-16 19:31:09 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Jump freighters: Secure, fast and large cargo.

Nerf JFs.


JF's = even a bigger kill! LOL
Fuel, fuel, fuel...erg.
Jafit
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6 - 2012-06-16 19:52:13 UTC
Mastodon with full expanders and cargo rigs just under 30,000m² cargohold
With 2 LSE IIs and an Invuln II you get 50,000 EHP
Plus a built in +2 warp core stab

Still seems to be largely an unused class, though I don't live in Empire so I don't know how often it's used there.

So maybe a cargo capacity buff somewhere in the region of the OP's suggestion could be in order for the Transport ship class?
Cerulean Errant
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#7 - 2012-06-16 20:51:56 UTC
I've often wondered about (and at times, when moving between stations in empire, wanted) something like this.

Perhaps the best solution would be something that is in between a T2 hauler and a freighter - can fit a few modules/rigs, maybe has a cool feature or is designed to fill a role (ala blockade runner), but offers substantially more cargo space than even a totally tricked out hauler could.

I've heard estimates for various maxed out haulers clocking in at around 40-50k in cargo space (I don't have an Iteron Mk V). The next largest amount of cargo space is 720k, the Fenrir (with just basic skills, not maxed out).

So, a rough estimate would be somewhere around 670k in cargo carrying difference. That's a lot, with regards to the difference in the amount of cargo carrying capacity.

You split that down the middle, a hauler that can carry around the neighborhood 350,000-ish + or more in cargo space would be a good spot to fill in. It'd have to be it's own class of ship (sub-freighter? Freighter-lite?).

Moreover, sometimes people have a lot of stuff to move - maybe a lot of stuff to bring to a market hub, or lots of kitchen sinks to move, who knows? However, they don't want to have to spring for the price of a full-blown freighter (with all the non-customizability it has) as well as having to train all the concomitant skills required to fly the damned thing (Advanced Spaceship Command, etc.). Just a new skill on top of already learned industrial skills.

Just my thoughts on this.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2012-06-17 05:00:11 UTC
A mid range dedicated hauler would be a very nice thing for the people who aren't moving incredibly huge amounts of m3, but the freighters need a bit of love by themselves.
Would an empty freighter really take as long align and warp as a full one? I would suggest dropping the base capacity of the t1 freighter, and adding a low slot or two to bring it up to its former cap /top speed /agility, or perhaps a low slot and a rig slot, both needing tech 2 items, or officer/deadspace equivalents to raise it to former levels.
The orca itself is used as a mid range hauler a bit too much, when it should be used only for ore hauling. Eliminating most of the cargo hold and corp hangars and both moving and increasing the bonus to the ore hold would lock it in the intended role, and open a space for a non capital mid range hauler.
However instead of another branch of skills off of the t1 industrial base, or even adding a new racial ship to the transport class, give the ORE company another feather in the cap, and have a t2 ORE industrial ship, as they seem to be branching out lately.
That would be one ship model to satisfy all the races, another skill extending a short branch of the skill tree (ore industrial) while using the transport skill as well ( have to skill up both to get full capacity usage), and ( hopefully) a more affordable mid-range hauler for the small businessman who doesn't meed to move station eggs or the like.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Cerulean Errant
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-06-17 18:12:27 UTC
When I've brought up this point in chat channels, I keep hearing "Use an Orca".

Um... NO.

Orcas are for mining. Why the hell should I have to train up a whole host of skills to fly a ship that is made for something else which I'm only going to use occasionally? It's made for mining support, it should be used for just that. Besides, they're damned expensive - just to move my ****?

I do like the idea of an "ORE" hauler - one skill to train in order to use, mid to high prereqs to pilot it, and hitting the midpoint between racial haulers and freighters. Though I think there is already an ORE Industrial skill (needed to pilot a Noctis). Call it "ORE Transport"?

Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-06-20 11:53:29 UTC
Zimmer Jones wrote:
Would an empty freighter really take as long align and warp as a full one? I would suggest dropping the base capacity of the t1 freighter, and adding a low slot or two to bring it up to its former cap /top speed /agility, or perhaps a low slot and a rig slot, both needing tech 2 items, or officer/deadspace equivalents to raise it to former levels.

I think they should reduce industrial ship mass and add mass amounts to all of the things that can be in cargo (they don't all have mass numbers) and then make mass of cargo apply to ship acceleration.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
chaotic pandemonium
Kabal of the Black Heart
#11 - 2012-06-20 12:33:46 UTC
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123055&find=unread

Here is a recent thread on this issue. This topic has come up a few times recently. I hope we stand a better chance at it getting attention.
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-06-20 14:08:03 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Zimmer Jones wrote:
Would an empty freighter really take as long align and warp as a full one? I would suggest dropping the base capacity of the t1 freighter, and adding a low slot or two to bring it up to its former cap /top speed /agility, or perhaps a low slot and a rig slot, both needing tech 2 items, or officer/deadspace equivalents to raise it to former levels.

I think they should reduce industrial ship mass and add mass amounts to all of the things that can be in cargo (they don't all have mass numbers) and then make mass of cargo apply to ship acceleration.



I'd Like that kind of idea as well, but it seems it might add a bit to the server load, as querys would need to constantly be made whenever you warp as to not only your skills but now your mass as well. Every little bit stacks on evey other one, and the result could be alot more lag in market systems, not to mention the drastic rebalancing of almost every item, as volume, and not mass is the main hauler issue. Come to think of it, mass isn't really used anywhere in the game.. just a stat to make things seem that much more real.

If it were usable in such a way that would cause no lag and not immediatly screw up the whole logistics communnity, I'd be all for it.

as to the post above this one: Older threads with more numerous posts will probably have more weight with the devs; more input, more response, more views. Quit splitting peoples attention if you REALLY want the issue looked at.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Max Therion
Jita Ikami Bank
#13 - 2012-06-23 21:54:04 UTC
chaotic pandemonium wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123055&find=unread

Here is a recent thread on this issue. This topic has come up a few times recently. I hope we stand a better chance at it getting attention.


Thanks for the link chaotic!

We (the EVE community) really need to get some traction on this with CCP DEVs. Pimped out T2 haulers and Iteron V's still do nothing to address the huge gap in m3 between Freighters and Industrial ships that are not Capital solutions; JF, Orca etc..

Two fundamental things drive EVE:

1) the destruction of things (PvP, PvE)
2) the creation of things (Industry)

With this in mind, all that stuff (fresh built or loot killed) needs hauling from hither and yon. There needs to exist a better solution in the 100-200K m3 range that is not a Capital ship and can fit mods.
Max Therion
Jita Ikami Bank
#14 - 2012-06-23 22:05:42 UTC
Zimmer Jones wrote:
as to the post above this one: Older threads with more numerous posts will probably have more weight with the devs; more input, more response, more views. Quit splitting peoples attention if you REALLY want the issue looked at.


Zimmer, DEVs look at the older weighted posts, but they also look at the new ones too. Capturing eyeballs one eyeball at a time is attention to an issue no matter how you slice and dice it. Debating how to get their attention is a zero-sum game and frankly not worthwhile, however your concern over whether they act on what is seen is a valid point. Two years ago I'd say not, however with their scaling back of WiS and serious attention to FiS in the last two expansions, I'd say that CCP does act on what we do attempt to convey to them.

Here's a parting thought, how about a modular T3 Hauler...
Zimmer Jones
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-06-24 00:02:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Zimmer Jones
Max Therion wrote:
Zimmer Jones wrote:
as to the post above this one: Older threads with more numerous posts will probably have more weight with the devs; more input, more response, more views. Quit splitting peoples attention if you REALLY want the issue looked at.


Zimmer, DEVs look at the older weighted posts, but they also look at the new ones too. Capturing eyeballs one eyeball at a time is attention to an issue no matter how you slice and dice it. Debating how to get their attention is a zero-sum game and frankly not worthwhile, however your concern over whether they act on what is seen is a valid point. Two years ago I'd say not, however with their scaling back of WiS and serious attention to FiS in the last two expansions, I'd say that CCP does act on what we do attempt to convey to them.

Here's a parting thought, how about a modular T3 Hauler...


Indeed, i support that idea as well. I probably would train for the new haulers proposed in the above posts, but if a t3 version came out, i'd drop everything in my skill plan and train that.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=7085



Not exactly a hauler, but the idea could be expanded upon. Somtthing that could carry a reasonable amount more than the transport ships, possibly with the option of certain fits to defeat bubbles and fit covert cloaks. Another fitting option ( possibly instead defeating interdiction bubbles) for a high enough "in warp" speed to outrun pursuers, cause i haven't had an "interesting, white knuckle hauling trip" since they gave the blockade runner the cov-ops cloak.


As you said, who knows what the devs will pay attention to, but they've shown that they want to keep the game interesting on as many levels as possible.

Use the force without consent and the court wont acquit you even if you are a card carryin', robe wearin' Jedi.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-06-24 00:22:49 UTC
Max Therion wrote:
chaotic pandemonium wrote:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=123055&find=unread

Here is a recent thread on this issue. This topic has come up a few times recently. I hope we stand a better chance at it getting attention.


Thanks for the link chaotic!

We (the EVE community) really need to get some traction on this with CCP DEVs. Pimped out T2 haulers and Iteron V's still do nothing to address the huge gap in m3 between Freighters and Industrial ships that are not Capital solutions; JF, Orca etc..

Two fundamental things drive EVE:

1) the destruction of things (PvP, PvE)
2) the creation of things (Industry)

With this in mind, all that stuff (fresh built or loot killed) needs hauling from hither and yon. There needs to exist a better solution in the 100-200K m3 range that is not a Capital ship and can fit mods.



Why? Why does this need to exist, and why does it need to not be a capital? Just fly a freighter, you're dead in hostile space regardless of what kind of hauler you fly.
Max Therion
Jita Ikami Bank
#17 - 2012-06-24 06:52:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Max Therion
Danika Princip wrote:
Why? Why does this need to exist, and why does it need to not be a capital? Just fly a freighter, you're dead in hostile space regardless of what kind of hauler you fly.

I fully enjoyed the articulation on your point, thanks for the counter argument in this discussion.

Mainly because we've got a bazillion PvP ships in EVE and only a handful of Industrial types of ships. So pull you head of the sand just a tad and next time you're taking a drive notice in the real world how many ways we can ship goods around the globe...

Does it not stand to reason that a 5,000+ star-system economy thousands of years more advanced would have more than a dozen types of transport starships available towards sustaining such a massive economy? (Dr. EyjoG help me out here...)

Whiteboard this:

a) Freighters can not fit mods

b) Orca is for mining (and are considered a Cap class ship)

c) JF are again just freighter that can Jump

d) (hint- main point) Industrials pimped out can only haul a limited amount of cargo

Conclusion: Do you see a gap here?
Max Therion
Jita Ikami Bank
#18 - 2012-06-25 05:27:28 UTC
Zimmer Jones wrote:
Indeed, i support that idea as well. I probably would train for the new haulers proposed in the above posts, but if a t3 version came out, i'd drop everything in my skill plan and train that.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=7085

Not exactly a hauler, but the idea could be expanded upon. Somtthing that could carry a reasonable amount more than the transport ships, possibly with the option of certain fits to defeat bubbles and fit covert cloaks. Another fitting option ( possibly instead defeating interdiction bubbles) for a high enough "in warp" speed to outrun pursuers, cause i haven't had an "interesting, white knuckle hauling trip" since they gave the blockade runner the cov-ops cloak.

As you said, who knows what the devs will pay attention to, but they've shown that they want to keep the game interesting on as many levels as possible.

Zimmer Jones wrote:
Somtthing [sic] that could carry a reasonable amount more than the transport ships

Exactly! (and all of the above)
Busta Rock
The DawnSoarers
#19 - 2012-06-25 14:07:42 UTC
reposting from the jump freighter thread, since this is a more appropriate place to do it. I'm going to snip those sections that deal with JF issues, and add other points of possible interest.

to be honest, EvE needs MORE heavy haulers, not less. my own preferred change to the freighters (and perhaps even normal industrials) would be to give them specialized bays, thus different ship classes would be used for specific cargo types. this way, CCP could add at least one new 'light' freighter class (perhaps an ORE freighter/jump freighter?) and perhaps 5 or more if the bays can be specialized more than currently. being capitals, they would likely have construction requirements similar to the Orca... perhaps a bit less due to a relative lack of slots and bonuses (though they *do* have slots).

for instance, lets take raw ore freighters:



  • each of the primary Empire NPC mining companies - Ducia Mining, Deep Core mining, Astral Mining and Minmatar Mining - should have their own dedicated raw ore freighters. being empire-based, they would have no jump-capable variants, and have dedicated ore bays. these would NOT be made to interfere with the roles of the ORE capital industrials, and would have ore bays perhaps half the size of present freighters.

  • ORE jump freighter - specializes in transporting raw or compressed ore from POS hangars/onsite Rorquals to station, or from non-refining stations to refining stations. at least 1Mm^3 ore bay, no cargo bay, no corp hangar, cannot pickup or drop cargo except at stations or vessels with corp hangars, etc. this should be the only freighter type capable of handling truly large quantities of ore, and would likely have an isk cost (and jump range) close to a rorqual (originally thought supercarrier, but that's just too much), yet is still considered a T1 capital ship - no moon mats required.




racial freighter types (I would consider these to be 'light' freighters, as they all would be in the 200-300km^3 range):



  • general cargo carrier. a container type ship that mounts a new type of 'light' freight container on multiple external hardpoints (that could possibly be specifically targeted, releasing the container(s) upon either hardpoint destruction or ship death). this would ideally suit the gallente industrial design philosophy, basing upon the iteron type industrials... there should be at least one freighter design that expands upon this paradigm. also, this class would have a unique ability to jettison and anchor these new cans (as they are mounted externally), which would have identical capacity to a standard jetcan.

  • refined mineral hauler. has specialized bay for handling processed minerals in bulk. perhaps can add moon minerals and planetary goods to it's specialization - though I would prefer other specialized classes for moon and PI material transport. larger overall capacity than the container ship.

  • packaged vessel transporter. has a bay that is specialized for handling packaged vessels. might be seen as stepping on the toes of carriers, but lack of fitting capability, as well as inability to unload/unpack in space should negate that argument.




basically, these would take out some of the guesswork about just what a given freighter is hauling (if you're a pirate or other hostile entity), add more visual variation to the eve universe, and balance out logistic chains a bit.

P.S.

as an aside, I've never understood the design of the industrials overall... the iteron series in particular literally SCREAMS 'I'm a long stalk with a command section on one end and engines on the other... I'M SUPPOSED TO CARRY CANS (up to 15 GSC's in the case of the itty5) ON THE OUTSIDE!!!'. they really need to be revisited - especially with the imminent changes to barges coming later this year.

sorry... was venting some frustration there lol...
McOboe
Viscosity
#20 - 2012-06-25 19:02:53 UTC
I support the creation of a mid-capacity cargo ship. I plan to go for a deep space transport in the near future, as trying to my junk from station to station in a 10K m3 tanked T1 hauler is just not cutting it. Even with a tanked & expanded T2 deep space transport, I'll still need to make several trips. Having a tank-able transport with 150K-ish m3 would be great!
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