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Fixing Technetium

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Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#261 - 2012-06-16 17:47:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Pohbis
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
The disadvantages seem to be that people can avoid the refining tax if they have the resources to avoid it, causing a decrease in alliance income from large operators while simultaneously screwing over the average Joe who can't jump out to lowsec to get a lower refining tax, also since it is not a fixed structure small gangs will find it hard to catch any ring miners as intell out in 0.0 is pretty good and they would likely be reported and the miners safed up long before they ever entered the system.
If that is really the only con, simply make "ring mining refinery" an ihub upgrade.

No refining will happen outside sov territory, and the hunters get their "lighthouse" in terms of where to look for "ring miners".
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#262 - 2012-06-16 17:50:42 UTC
Pohbis wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
The disadvantages seem to be that people can avoid the refining tax if they have the resources to avoid it, causing a decrease in alliance income from large operators while simultaneously screwing over the average Joe who can't jump out to lowsec to get a lower refining tax, also since it is not a fixed structure small gangs will find it hard to catch any ring miners as intell out in 0.0 is pretty good and they would likely be reported and the miners safed up long before they ever entered the system.
If that is really the only con, simply make "ring mining refinery" an outpost upgrade.

No refining will happen outside sov territory, and the hunters get their "lighthouse" in terms of where to look for "ring miners".


If the intent is that ring mining replace moon mining it will by nature have to extend into lowsec, maybe highsec as well. Linking it to sov would make that difficult, although it could be done as a system hub sort of thing a la pocos, where they're owned by Interbus or something in empire.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
#263 - 2012-06-16 17:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Pohbis
corestwo wrote:
If the intent is that ring mining replace moon mining it will by nature have to extend into lowsec, maybe highsec as well. Linking it to sov would make that difficult, although it could be done as a system hub sort of thing a la pocos, where they're owned by Interbus or something in empire.
The intent is to drive meaningful 0.0 conflict.

I see no reason why that needs to spill over into lowsec. That's a relic from the moon mining and POS mechanics.

But yes, if it is to replace moon mining completely, it would have to be a la POCOs, you're right.

POCOs can be targets for smaller gangs, just like system upgrades are in FW now. So yes, would probably fit better.

My point was more, if tax is the only con, it can easily be fixed.
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#264 - 2012-06-16 18:05:04 UTC  |  Edited by: corestwo
Pohbis wrote:
corestwo wrote:
If the intent is that ring mining replace moon mining it will by nature have to extend into lowsec, maybe highsec as well. Linking it to sov would make that difficult, although it could be done as a system hub sort of thing a la pocos, where they're owned by Interbus or something in empire.
The intent is to drive meaningful 0.0 conflict.

I see no reason why that needs to spill over into lowsec. That's a relic from the moon mining and POS mechanics.

But yes, if it is to replace moon mining completely, it would have to be a la POCOs, you're right.

POCOs can be targets for smaller gangs, just like system upgrades are in FW now. So yes, would probably fit better.

My point was more, if tax is the only con, it can easily be fixed.


If they limit ring mining to nullsec, that means all T2 production is reliant on nullsec. It would naturally be up to CCP to decide whether they want that to be the case or not. However, if they do it that way, they'd also have to take steps to ensure that the lower end moon minerals actually got mined - that the isk/hour is the same regardless of whether you're mining atmospheric gases or dysprosium. How they do that is pretty irrelevant - it could be that you just mine up a blob that refines into everything, or maybe atmospheric gases are considerably lower m3 than R64s so you get more per cycle, whatever. Point is, if players can cherry pick, they will, and unlike normal mining where you can cherry pick in 0.0 because no one's reliant on your low end production, allowing/encouraging cherry picking in nullsec-only ring mining would be a disaster.

That's what I was getting at talking about highsec/lowsec - an assumption that minerals would be roughly distributed by value. Making ring mining null only would be interesting though. Note that tying it to sov is still something of an issue with NPC 0.0 though.

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2012-06-16 18:19:30 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
corestwo wrote:
If the intent is that ring mining replace moon mining it will by nature have to extend into lowsec, maybe highsec as well. Linking it to sov would make that difficult, although it could be done as a system hub sort of thing a la pocos, where they're owned by Interbus or something in empire.
The intent is to drive meaningful 0.0 conflict.

I see no reason why that needs to spill over into lowsec. That's a relic from the moon mining and POS mechanics.

But yes, if it is to replace moon mining completely, it would have to be a la POCOs, you're right.

POCOs can be targets for smaller gangs, just like system upgrades are in FW now. So yes, would probably fit better.

My point was more, if tax is the only con, it can easily be fixed.


If they limit ring mining to nullsec, that means all T2 production is reliant on nullsec. It would naturally be up to CCP to decide whether they want that to be the case or not. However, if they do it that way, they'd also have to take steps to ensure that the lower end moon minerals actually got mined - that the isk/hour is the same regardless of whether you're mining atmospheric gases or dysprosium. How they do that is pretty irrelevant - it could be that you just mine up a blob that refines into everything, or maybe atmospheric gases are considerably lower m3 than R64s so you get more per cycle, whatever. Point is, if players can cherry pick, they will, and unlike normal mining where you can cherry pick in 0.0 because no one's reliant on your low end production, allowing/encouraging cherry picking in nullsec-only ring mining would be a disaster.

That's what I was getting at talking about highsec/lowsec - an assumption that minerals would be roughly distributed by value. Making ring mining null only would be interesting though. Note that tying it to sov is still something of an issue with NPC 0.0 though.
Ooh! I forgot about cherry picking as a disadvantage.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Mortimer Civeri
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2012-06-16 19:17:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Mortimer Civeri
How about having all space open to ring mining? Highsec and low would have a NPC refinery structure Like the Interbus customs office around each planet, but only one goo refinery per system, in low and null you could replace it with a player built structure that you could set refining taxes. Set the types available by sec status like asteroids are now, and you have the common (gasses maybe a single regional r8) moongoo mined in empire space, low and mid range goo (r8s and r16s) able to be mined in lowsec, and all types able to be mined in null. You still have the group effort to mine the rings, and the unavoidable tax of POCOs, as the only place to refine is in the refinery structure. I don't know, some lore reason being that it is dangerous/toxic to refine the stuff near people so you can't use a station to refine it, and must use the refining structure.

"I don't know which is worse, ...that everyone has his price, or that the price is always so low." Calvin
Xython
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2012-06-16 19:23:45 UTC
corestwo wrote:
If they limit ring mining to nullsec, that means all T2 production is reliant on nullsec. It would naturally be up to CCP to decide whether they want that to be the case or not.


And why not? They've mentioned they plan to move all Ice to Nullsec. Nullsec is completely reliant on highsec. Why shouldn't there be some inter-dependency?
Lady Zarrina
New Eden Browncoats
#268 - 2012-06-16 19:39:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Zarrina
corestwo wrote:
Pohbis wrote:
corestwo wrote:
If the intent is that ring mining replace moon mining it will by nature have to extend into lowsec, maybe highsec as well. Linking it to sov would make that difficult, although it could be done as a system hub sort of thing a la pocos, where they're owned by Interbus or something in empire.
The intent is to drive meaningful 0.0 conflict.

I see no reason why that needs to spill over into lowsec. That's a relic from the moon mining and POS mechanics.

But yes, if it is to replace moon mining completely, it would have to be a la POCOs, you're right.

POCOs can be targets for smaller gangs, just like system upgrades are in FW now. So yes, would probably fit better.

My point was more, if tax is the only con, it can easily be fixed.


If they limit ring mining to nullsec, that means all T2 production is reliant on nullsec. It would naturally be up to CCP to decide whether they want that to be the case or not. However, if they do it that way, they'd also have to take steps to ensure that the lower end moon minerals actually got mined - that the isk/hour is the same regardless of whether you're mining atmospheric gases or dysprosium. How they do that is pretty irrelevant - it could be that you just mine up a blob that refines into everything, or maybe atmospheric gases are considerably lower m3 than R64s so you get more per cycle, whatever. Point is, if players can cherry pick, they will, and unlike normal mining where you can cherry pick in 0.0 because no one's reliant on your low end production, allowing/encouraging cherry picking in nullsec-only ring mining would be a disaster.

That's what I was getting at talking about highsec/lowsec - an assumption that minerals would be roughly distributed by value. Making ring mining null only would be interesting though. Note that tying it to sov is still something of an issue with NPC 0.0 though.



I agree everyone will cherry pick certain items if possible. But eventually if that keeps up, the non-mined items become valuable enough to mine. I think that is a good thing. Keeps a dynamic economy?

And, a PI approach many definitely be best. I doubt there are enough miners in null to keep up with all the moon goo and their share of the high end base materials. Should provide a real wide tax base. And I would love to see it go into Wormholes, but that is probably asking too much.

EVE: All about Flying Frisky and Making Iskie
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#269 - 2012-06-16 20:31:32 UTC
I would think you'd do ring mining vaguely like gas clouds in w-space: it's hard to probe down a ring so once you've got one you might as well mine it, but there's ones that are way more valuable than the others - it'd be boring if every ring was the same.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#270 - 2012-06-16 20:44:38 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:

The second one is Ring Mining. This has the advantage of group PvE, like Soundwave wanted.


Good nullsec alliances already have no trouble creating their own group content. We really don't need CCP to hand us group PvE to keep us entertained.

Also, "group mining" is largely a myth. Most of it is 1 guy multi-boxing a mining fleet. Mining is just so brain dead easy that 1 guy can run a fleet and still be engaged enough to get out of harms way.

And if the thing is anything like incursions, it will be some select group that goes and runs them, and they'll have no interest in bringing in anyone but the bare minimum, so they don't have to split the rewards too much.
Fire Stone
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#271 - 2012-06-16 21:47:39 UTC
Mortimer Civeri wrote:
@ Dinsdale Pirannha Just shut up about how many alt accounts you've unsubbed, and try to help get a consensus on how to get moongoo rebalanced. If you can't do that then don't troll the thread with your "Eve is dieing" bullcrap, because you're not helping.

Now there seems to be two lines of thought here. One, is that a clone of PI could be used for moons. This has the advantage of the alliance having an unavoidable tax income from moons, increases the "farms and fields" dynamic by providing something that an enemy can disrupt/destroy. The disadvantage to that idea is that it is another solitary activity, that doesn't fit with the group PvE ideal CCP Soundwave wanted, also it is another structure to shoot, and who loves to shoot structures.

The second one is Ring Mining. This has the advantage of group PvE, like Soundwave wanted, increases the "farms and fields" as small roving gangs can disrupt/destroy operations as well, and it is not a structure to shoot. The disadvantages seem to be that people can avoid the refining tax if they have the resources to avoid it, causing a decrease in alliance income from large operators while simultaneously screwing over the average Joe who can't jump out to lowsec to get a lower refining tax, also since it is not a fixed structure small gangs will find it hard to catch any ring miners as intell out in 0.0 is pretty good and they would likely be reported and the miners safed up long before they ever entered the system.

Well the third thing is a band-aid fix of alchemy


One possible solution I can think of is to tag all ore mined and it can only be refined within a 10 jump radius or something. This way alliances get their taxes as users can not refine it anywhere else.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#272 - 2012-06-16 21:55:34 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Mortimer Civeri wrote:

The second one is Ring Mining. This has the advantage of group PvE, like Soundwave wanted.


Good nullsec alliances already have no trouble creating their own group content. We really don't need CCP to hand us group PvE to keep us entertained.

Also, "group mining" is largely a myth. Most of it is 1 guy multi-boxing a mining fleet. Mining is just so brain dead easy that 1 guy can run a fleet and still be engaged enough to get out of harms way.

And if the thing is anything like incursions, it will be some select group that goes and runs them, and they'll have no interest in bringing in anyone but the bare minimum, so they don't have to split the rewards too much.

brb
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#273 - 2012-06-16 22:07:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Yeah, as I'm reading this thread I'm starting to think Moon POCOs instead of ring mining are the way to go as far as fixing moon goo goes because

1) Mining sucks
2) It's implemented faster because the PI interface already existed, and Soundwave says that the team developing the feature is backlogged already.
3) Can branch into DUST in the future

That's it's directly taxable by alliances/corps is I guess relevent to tech-dependent 0.0 alliances, but not as much to me now that I think about it
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#274 - 2012-06-16 22:44:32 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

That's it's directly taxable by alliances/corps is I guess relevent to tech-dependent 0.0 alliances, but not as much to me now that I think about it


Something it does add for the average corp member is that they would get a tangible stake in a structure shot/rep op. It still isn't terribly fun to pound on a structure, but it would mean you are gaining/defending access to your personal moon factories, rather than a pos which is only accessed by the leadership.

If you are going to shoot a structure, would you rather do it so your ceo can get another titan, or do it because it gives you access to an isk generating activity?
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#275 - 2012-06-16 23:39:16 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Yeah, as I'm reading this thread I'm starting to think Moon POCOs instead of ring mining are the way to go as far as fixing moon goo goes because

1) Mining sucks
2) It's implemented faster because the PI interface already existed, and Soundwave says that the team developing the feature is backlogged already.
3) Can branch into DUST in the future

That's it's directly taxable by alliances/corps is I guess relevent to tech-dependent 0.0 alliances, but not as much to me now that I think about it

That it's directly taxable by alliances and corps is in fact relevant to any 0.0 entity, especially if they want to offer reimbursements and whatnot. The more taxable income they can generate, the more things like that they can offer.

Of course, if you're in an alliance that doesn't do anything like that where the directors just pocket the taxes, I could see you not caring. ;)

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#276 - 2012-06-17 00:06:24 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Yeah, as I'm reading this thread I'm starting to think Moon POCOs instead of ring mining are the way to go as far as fixing moon goo goes because

1) Mining sucks
2) It's implemented faster because the PI interface already existed, and Soundwave says that the team developing the feature is backlogged already.
3) Can branch into DUST in the future

That's it's directly taxable by alliances/corps is I guess relevent to tech-dependent 0.0 alliances, but not as much to me now that I think about it

That it's directly taxable by alliances and corps is in fact relevant to any 0.0 entity, especially if they want to offer reimbursements and whatnot. The more taxable income they can generate, the more things like that they can offer.

Of course, if you're in an alliance that doesn't do anything like that where the directors just pocket the taxes, I could see you not caring. ;)
yeah the destination of the moon riches of detorid doesn't really keep me up at night (not where we get our income from)
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#277 - 2012-06-17 00:11:43 UTC
Fire Stone wrote:
One possible solution I can think of is to tag all ore mined and it can only be refined within a 10 jump radius or something. This way alliances get their taxes as users can not refine it anywhere else.

Sounds like asking CCP to fix the problem for us.

Hm, others have had success with this method, why not...

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Headerman1
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#278 - 2012-06-17 00:21:38 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:

At Ring Mining ::

I think an interesting idea would be instead of requiring to "dock" and deposit ring mining goodies, that you can drop them off at a station attachment that would be designed like a POCO hangar (bear with me).

The Moon Mining Deposit Bay would let you drop your ores into the station and it would be taxed and then taken to the appropriate hangar (corp/personal). This would avoid the need for constant docking and undocking when full up on materials and would let miners get taxed as they go, providing a service and a convenience and a method of taxation.

Just exploring here on forward thinking mechanics.





That is a decent idea except that it would be easy for an alliance to tax it to 100% or whatever an artificial limit would be.

There are multiple models of how to replace moon mining:
- PI model, individual based, passive income of material
- roid mining model, individual based, active material income
- Anom model, fleet based, possibly having to deal with multiple waves on rats all the time, mine until depleted, multiple 'Moon Goo' 'rocks' to mine

Would they spawn in NPC space? Should they spawn there? or nearby to allow for smaller alliances to seriously disrupt the production?

Should the ammount of moon goo available to mine be the same amount as what is currently available, or more to compensate the steady income a moon mining POS generates?
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#279 - 2012-06-17 00:45:41 UTC
Headerman1 wrote:

That is a decent idea except that it would be easy for an alliance to tax it to 100% or whatever an artificial limit would be.

Then nobody would do it. The system would still require people to be pushing buttons often and so if we take all the money from that, they won't do it.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#280 - 2012-06-17 01:12:03 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Headerman1 wrote:

That is a decent idea except that it would be easy for an alliance to tax it to 100% or whatever an artificial limit would be.

Then nobody would do it. The system would still require people to be pushing buttons often and so if we take all the money from that, they won't do it.

The obvious problem.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?