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CCP Soundwave: If EvE isn't fair...

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Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#41 - 2012-06-16 15:33:42 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
Alia Gon'die wrote:
So instead of having all these people getting in on a free wardec, why not do what Goons did and form an actual alliance to fight them? That seems like a much easier way to go about things. This allies thing that you used basically seems like a free way to get around forming an alliance.


Its also a counter to alliance theft and destruction that hasn't been addressed since (well surprise surprise, the goons used the tactic to remove your ancient enemy bob.) Its effectively impossible to secure a large alliance entity from infiltration and whats going to happen should somebody form a serious alliance compromising hundreds of hisec anti goon people will be that it'll get infiltrated and suddenly 50% will declare support to somebody else and then the alliance explodes in another goon coup.

The mechanics of alliance security have never been resolved sufficiently to make it worth the time pursuing that route.

Quote:
Also, do you have any evidence beyond that one post by a nobody that Goons were demanding this change? Because I sure haven't, and despite asking for it for the last few days I have yet to see it.


Follow the money Cui bono?

Its not a hard mystery to uncover.


Quote:
A "legal burden" or a "burden of persuasion" is an obligation that remains on a single party for the duration of the claim. Once the burden has been entirely discharged to the satisfaction of the trier of fact, the party carrying the burden will succeed in its claim. For example, the presumption of innocence places a legal burden upon the prosecution to prove all elements of the offense (generally beyond a reasonable doubt) and to disprove all the defenses except for affirmative defenses in which the proof of non-existence of all affirmative defense(s) is not constitutionally required of the prosecution.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
Simetraz
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-06-16 15:34:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Simetraz
I admit removing Drones from the Super Carriers was pretty harsh.

But so be it, what is done is done.

Wonder how many Super Carriers have been logged off for the past 6 months with the exception of changing training or flipping an alt in them.

PS - Maybe they will make a Bomber version of the mining drones Big smile

EVERYBODY KNOWS
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#43 - 2012-06-16 15:37:24 UTC
SetrakDark wrote:

You could dogpile every single hisec-based organization onto a wardec against goons, and goons would still be able to attack you with utter impunity. That`s it. End of story.


You are wrong to try to personalize it as a threat to "me" really. One of the comments to the many blogs on the subject this week said it best.

Cearain wrote:
Jade Constantine is probably about as afraid of the goon "death squads" as he is of a platter of creampuffs.


This whole scandal is over the fact that I used the mittani's rage against him and planned to mire the Goonswarm Federation into a foreverwar dogpile they could never escape. The killboard numbers don't lie, the first 4 days of the foreverwar had you guys getting annihilated. How would that seem after 2-3 years, sadly we'll never now know.

SetrakDark wrote:
The fact that you are willing to create so much drama over something that has no impact on nullsec alliances at the cost of the hisec people whom it actually affects shows how emotionally disturbed and mentally unbalanced you are.


How exactly have I done anything to the cost of hisec people?

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-06-16 15:39:37 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
InternetSpaceship wrote:

Go look at the Tech fix thread and see which corp is actively discussing ways to nerf tech with a gm to level the playing field for everyone else. Hint: It's the same corp that lobbied for supercap nerfs to level the playing field for smaller corps.
You won't care, though. You've already made up your mind, facts be damned.



I skimmed the thread. I saw that Soundwave was talking about delaying the ring-mining implementation (tech-nerf) beyond the implementation of new POS system (ie christmas) and the Goonswarm leadership saying that the reason nullsec had been utterly stagnant recently was uncertainty over the tech nerf. The general position seemed to be that if Soundwave would confirm that nothing was going to happen to tech for X period of time goonswarm would be happy to start making war in 0.0 again. But as long as there was uncertainty then the OTEC stasis would continue.

So yes, ring-mining and complete end to pos-based mineral extraction is needed. But it seems the timescale is sliding off into the distant future beyond the scope even of the now fabled "dead horse pos revamp." Its something the next generation of eve players might see in a year or so.

Not a great immediate solution to the problem of the Inferno 1.1 wardec nerf in favour of the largest 0.0 alliances though is it?


Hey, you skimmed it. That'll give you all the necessary information to make a well informed and balanced judgement on the situation! Good job!

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#45 - 2012-06-16 15:40:20 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
SetrakDark wrote:

You could dogpile every single hisec-based organization onto a wardec against goons, and goons would still be able to attack you with utter impunity. That`s it. End of story.


You are wrong to try to personalize it as a threat to "me" really. One of the comments to the many blogs on the subject this week said it best.

Cearain wrote:
Jade Constantine is probably about as afraid of the goon "death squads" as he is of a platter of creampuffs.


This whole scandal is over the fact that I used the mittani's rage against him and planned to mire the Goonswarm Federation into a foreverwar dogpile they could never escape. The killboard numbers don't lie, the first 4 days of the foreverwar had you guys getting annihilated. How would that seem after 2-3 years, sadly we'll never now know.

SetrakDark wrote:
The fact that you are willing to create so much drama over something that has no impact on nullsec alliances at the cost of the hisec people whom it actually affects shows how emotionally disturbed and mentally unbalanced you are.


How exactly have I done anything to the cost of hisec people?



Can you provide any proof to back up your claims of "goon tears" over the forever war they say they want?

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
Jarod Leercap
On Three 125
#46 - 2012-06-16 15:42:09 UTC
Bottom line, the best defense a pubbie like me has against overwhelming war decs is being an uninteresting target.

However, that's been more or less the normal state of affairs for some time. The Goons (or someone else big) could station camp me into unsubbing, but why should they bother when they can make money for raining on someone's parade through recruitment scams?
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-06-16 15:42:59 UTC
There was a forever war against us?

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#48 - 2012-06-16 15:44:13 UTC
InternetSpaceship wrote:
There was a forever war against us?


Well there is until tuesday anyway.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-06-16 15:45:04 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
The killboard numbers don't lie, the first 4 days of the foreverwar had you guys getting annihilated.


What does this even mean? What impact do you think you had on Goonswarm?

Actually describe how the normal functioning and power of Goonswarm had been disrupted.

As to harming hisec, you are doing so by trying to create limitations to mechanics meant for hisec gameplay by making it about an imagined impact on nullsec gameplay that does not exist.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#50 - 2012-06-16 15:45:20 UTC
So to make sure I understand because I am not real bright... and please correct me if I am wrong.


Allegedly:

You declared war on Goons.
They set it to mutual.
You added a bunch of allies.
Goons cried foul.
CCP Dev and former GSF member Soundwave jumped in to save Goons from the war by increasing the amount of ISK to maintain the war.
Rage and stuff on forums.

Meanwhile, Goons lobbied to have super-caps nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole) and to have Tech nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole).

I do believe CCP has an Internal Affairs group and that they would be a better audience for this. Fuming on the forums just makes you look bitter.

But I don't understand stuff very well because I am not real bright...

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-06-16 15:47:05 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:
InternetSpaceship wrote:
There was a forever war against us?


Well there is until tuesday anyway.


I'm not trying to be snarky here, but why haven't I seen any real change in VFK? We had that gang run through a few days ago, but they just passed through without incident. Last time we had a war, **** was exploding.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2012-06-16 15:49:15 UTC  |  Edited by: InternetSpaceship
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So to make sure I understand because I am not real bright... and please correct me if I am wrong.
Meanwhile, Goons lobbied to have super-caps nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole) and to have Tech nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole).


If you want us to continue bathing in Tech and give us back the "I Win" button, go ahead and fight for that, I guess. Not sure what your end game plan for doing that is, though.

Seriously, why else do you think we lobbied to weaken our own advantages? You must be seeing one hell of a plan in there somewhere.

As far as the war dec jab you tossed in there, well, I guess I'll just laugh at you for thinking wardecs mean anything at all to nullsec corps.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#53 - 2012-06-16 15:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
InternetSpaceship wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So to make sure I understand because I am not real bright... and please correct me if I am wrong.
Meanwhile, Goons lobbied to have super-caps nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole) and to have Tech nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole).


If you want us to continue bathing in Tech and give us back the "I Win" button, go ahead and fight for that, I guess. Not sure what your end game plan for doing that is, though.


As far as the war dec jab you tossed in there, well, I guess I'll just laugh at you for thinking wardecs mean anything at all to nullsec corps.


I could care less about Tech. I just get tired of the same old tired "Goons R Bad" **** threads all day.

E: If people want to accuse others of some kind of inpropriety then they should be addressing that with IA not painting the forums with there multi-colored "Waaaaaah!"

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#54 - 2012-06-16 15:56:24 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
InternetSpaceship wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So to make sure I understand because I am not real bright... and please correct me if I am wrong.
Meanwhile, Goons lobbied to have super-caps nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole) and to have Tech nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole).


If you want us to continue bathing in Tech and give us back the "I Win" button, go ahead and fight for that, I guess. Not sure what your end game plan for doing that is, though.


As far as the war dec jab you tossed in there, well, I guess I'll just laugh at you for thinking wardecs mean anything at all to nullsec corps.


I could care less about Tech. I just get tired of the same old tired "Goons R Bad" **** threads all day.


Well, you still tossed that "allegedly" in there, as if we had some ulterior motive.

Just what do you think our master plan is that involved weakening our massive fleet of doomsday machines and having our primary source of isk spread all around to every other corp instead of just continuing to horde it for ourselves?

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#55 - 2012-06-16 16:02:34 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So to make sure I understand because I am not real bright... and please correct me if I am wrong.


Allegedly:

You declared war on Goons.
They set it to mutual.
You added a bunch of allies.
Goons cried foul.
CCP Dev and former GSF member Soundwave jumped in to save Goons from the war by increasing the amount of ISK to maintain the war.
Rage and stuff on forums.

Meanwhile, Goons lobbied to have super-caps nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole) and to have Tech nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole).

I do believe CCP has an Internal Affairs group and that they would be a better audience for this. Fuming on the forums just makes you look bitter.

But I don't understand stuff very well because I am not real bright...


You are right about the brightness part, or are intentionally being obtuse. Take your pick.

1. Goons declared war, not the other way around.
2. Jade set it mutual, as per the game mechanics, thereby locking goons into a forever war.
3. Jade added a ton of allies. all who wanted a piece of goons in high / low sec. Once again, using the new war dec mechanics.
4. Goons started getting hammered in empire. Jade and allies never had any intention of fighting in null.
5. Goons cried.
6. Someone at CCP on incredibly short notice announced sweeping, immediate changes to the brand new war dec mechanics, making it impossible for Jade and allies to continue the war economically, plus giving goons a way to end the war after 2 weeks.
7. Rage on the forums.
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#56 - 2012-06-16 16:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Alia Gon'die
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So to make sure I understand because I am not real bright... and please correct me if I am wrong.


Allegedly:

You declared war on Goons.
They set it to mutual.
You added a bunch of allies.
Goons cried foul.
CCP Dev and former GSF member Soundwave jumped in to save Goons from the war by increasing the amount of ISK to maintain the war.
Rage and stuff on forums.

Meanwhile, Goons lobbied to have super-caps nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole) and to have Tech nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole).

I do believe CCP has an Internal Affairs group and that they would be a better audience for this. Fuming on the forums just makes you look bitter.

But I don't understand stuff very well because I am not real bright...


You are right about the brightness part, or are intentionally being obtuse. Take your pick.

1. Goons declared war, not the other way around.
2. Jade set it mutual, as per the game mechanics, thereby locking goons into a forever war.
3. Jade added a ton of allies. all who wanted a piece of goons in high / low sec. Once again, using the new war dec mechanics.
4. Goons started getting hammered in empire. Jade and allies never had any intention of fighting in null.
5. Goons cried.
6. Someone at CCP on incredibly short notice announced sweeping, immediate changes to the brand new war dec mechanics, making it impossible for Jade and allies to continue the war economically, plus giving goons a way to end the war after 2 weeks.
7. Rage on the forums.


Do you have any evidence of number 5 there? Anything whose veracity can be verified? TIA

Edit: Also, this hammering in empire is this the source for that? Because Goons losing 20 ships hardly counts as getting hammered.

For those who may not be able to see the picture it breaks down like this:

Started 2012.05.03
Goonswarm Federation The Honda Accord
7,285,184,083 ISK killed 18,717,564,832 ISK killed
43 ships killed 363 Ships Killed

Started 2012.05.18
Test Alliance Please Ignore The Honda Accord
514,059,187 ISK killed 15,981,308,283 ISK killed
8 Ships Killed 598 Ships Killed

Started 2012.05.31
Goonswarm Federation The Star Fraction
1,511,365,668 ISK Killed 10,214,708,243 ISK Killed
20 Ships Killed 62 Ships Killed

These numbers come straight from the post Jade Constantine made on EN24.

So how do these numbers add up to Goonswarm getting their butts kicked so hard they started to cry? Losses like these are fairly commonplace for Goons, and they generally don't seem to care about huge losses.

In addition, I have yet to see anyone, including Jade, offer any real evidence of these supposed "Goon Tears". I always get told to go look for the evidence myself. Well I looked for the evidence, and I didn't come back with anything substantiative.

The interpretation that I have to make from all of this evidence is that none of these "Goon Tears" took place, and that Jade Constantine is simply trying to whip people up into a frenzy for his own goals.

This seeming hatred of Goonswarm by Jade probably stems from the fact that we whomped his BFFs BoB back in the day, and he is still carrying a grudge from that.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#57 - 2012-06-16 16:06:27 UTC  |  Edited by: InternetSpaceship
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

4. Goons started getting hammered in empire. Jade and allies never had any intention of fighting in null.
5. Goons cried.
6. Someone at CCP on incredibly short notice announced sweeping, immediate changes to the brand new war dec mechanics, making it impossible for Jade and allies to continue the war economically, plus giving goons a way to end the war after 2 weeks.


If this is true, then it is wrong, and you need to contact an admin and show him all the evidence against the GM/dev who did it.

Also, which goons are hanging out in Empire? I need to know so they can be thoroughly and properly mocked.

I do hang out on the goon forums and jabber, but I don't remember anyone crying. I wasn't even aware we were in a war.

CCP did change the wardec mechanics pretty quickly. I guess when it's something to help pubbies, like buffed mining ships, that sort of thing is fine. Anything that helps goons, though, is just a conspiracy.

Not that wardecs really mean **** to nullsec alliances.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#58 - 2012-06-16 16:07:21 UTC
InternetSpaceship wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
InternetSpaceship wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
So to make sure I understand because I am not real bright... and please correct me if I am wrong.
Meanwhile, Goons lobbied to have super-caps nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole) and to have Tech nerfed (allegedly for the good of the community as a whole).


If you want us to continue bathing in Tech and give us back the "I Win" button, go ahead and fight for that, I guess. Not sure what your end game plan for doing that is, though.


As far as the war dec jab you tossed in there, well, I guess I'll just laugh at you for thinking wardecs mean anything at all to nullsec corps.


I could care less about Tech. I just get tired of the same old tired "Goons R Bad" **** threads all day.


Well, you still tossed that "allegedly" in there, as if we had some ulterior motive.

Just what do you think our master plan is that involved weakening our massive fleet of doomsday machines and having our primary source of isk spread all around to every other corp instead of just continuing to horde it for ourselves?


You should read the post in it's entirety. I 'm not sure why you are arguing with someone that, at least to some exten, agrees with your position but ok.

The details of the war dec and the accusations that followed are prefaced by the word "allegedly".
The details of the Goons other actions and their intentions are also qualified as "allegedly".

To reinterate my position: If someone believes that the Goons and a CCP employee are negotiating wardec game design behind closed doors allegedly (P) to the benefit of Goons then give whatever evidence you have to Internal Affairs and stop making baseless claims based on conjecture and conspiracy.

I would also request, again, that we get some new, original, and emergent, player-generated forum content. "Goons R Bad" thread every other post is making the forums boring and tired. But my opinion means little because I am not very bright...


"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
InternetSpaceship
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-06-16 16:11:14 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:

You should read the post in it's entirety. I 'm not sure why you are arguing with someone that, at least to some exten, agrees with your position but ok.

The details of the war dec and the accusations that followed are prefaced by the word "allegedly".
The details of the Goons other actions and their intentions are also qualified as "allegedly".

To reinterate my position: If someone believes that the Goons and a CCP employee are negotiating wardec game design behind closed doors allegedly (P) to the benefit of Goons then give whatever evidence you have to Internal Affairs and stop making baseless claims based on conjecture and conspiracy.



OH YEAH, WELL

yeah, I misread you, sorry about that.

Quote:


I would also request, again, that we get some new, original, and emergent, player-generated forum content. "Goons R Bad" thread every other post is making the forums boring and tired. But my opinion means little because I am not very bright...



Can't expect us to do it all, go ahead and make some yourself.

Official Recruiter for GoonSwarm Corporation.

If you paid isk to get into GoonSwarm, you were probably scammed.  If you had the foresight to save the name of your scammer, let me know and I'll do what I can to help you.
SetrakDark
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-06-16 16:14:03 UTC
Alia Gon'die wrote:
Do you have any evidence of number 5 there? Anything whose veracity can be verified? TIA


I would like to see this too. The whole tinfoil conspiracy theory rests on the suggestion that somehow hisec wardecs suddenly, after years of being utterly and unambiguously meaningless to nullsec organizations, mattered. Even more so, that more wardecs mattered more.

So far nobody has been able to back this claim up one bit.