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CCP; a numbers question if i may
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Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#41 - 2012-06-16 04:24:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Ruareve wrote:
Rare minerals? I have to risk even more for mining since I'll need to bring some way to move the ore, some kind of protection fleet to hopefully let the ore get out at least, and I can pretty much guarantee the mining ship will die considering they are tissue paper. Maybe the changes to mining ships will change that some, but the logistics required to have a profitable low sec mining fleet are fairly significant.

T2 transports, Jump Freighters, Rorquals to compress ore. All currently exist in-game and can solve your problems perfectly well.

Ruareve wrote:
Moon minerals? Now there is something worth thinking about. The biggest problem to this idea is the ability for supers to enter low and skew the balance. In the end all of the profitable moons would be owned by null sec alliances capable of dropping a few dozen supers and a hundred or so caps onto anyone trying to attack the POS. Even if supers were excluded from low sec I just don't see how this would end up being a boon to pirates without some form of cyno jammer being installed in low sec. Even then the ability for null alliances to simply outnumber the smaller alliances probably won't help the pirate cause any.

CCP are rehashing moon minerals with ring mining, so to be honest I'd rather just leave it to see what they have planned. But I agree, power projection currently renders low sec moons somewhat pointless for low sec inhabitants.

Ruareve wrote:
I think the solution will be to completely reconsider how low sec is viewed. Instead of looking at mirroring high sec activities with a higher payout why not make low sec be the null training ground and combat centric area. Please note all yeilds on the below suggestions increase in return as system security decreases.

Maybe have .3-.4 systems be permanently cyno jammed making it impossible to bring in capitals.

Increase moon mining returns to something like 10-15% less then what is in Null.

Provide same types of asteroids as null but about 20% less density.

Restrict an alliance from having POS's in more than two low sec systems. They can have as many as they want in two systems, but this limit provides opportunity for smaller alliances and prevents huge swaths of low being taken over by Null blocs.

Alt corporations are easily set up, and completely negate this solution.

Cyno-jamming half of low sec also does little to help anyway, if a null sec alliance wants a moon they'd just bridge a hellgeddon or {insertdoctrinehere} fleet in to the nearest 0.2 sec and fly a few jumps.

Ruareve wrote:
These changes make low sec more appealing as a manufacturing hub, provides some income to small alliances to help them get established, allows ISK for PVP ship purchase, provides a reason to fight for something inside of low sec, and keeps a steady stream of ships moving in and out of low sec.

Then to help encourage people that like to pirate to go to low sec why not make it so you can't gank in high sec. Which means all fighting will pretty much have to occur in low or null. This would help Eve to scale from high, low, and finally null for risk vs. reward. I'm fairly certain most players want to try out PVP in low and null but there's a fairly significant drop off to go from high sec alliance to moving to null.

Right, ok I really don't get how any of this makes low sec more appealing as a manufacturing hub? "Allows ISK for PvP ship purchases"? How, you haven't changed anything? And what steady stream of ships?

You haven't actually added anything to low sec, you've just nerfed moon mining a little and made it so null sec alliances will have to bring a sub-cap blob a few jumps for moons in .3-.4

As for this gem, lol:

Ruareve wrote:
Then to help encourage people that like to pirate to go to low sec why not make it so you can't gank in high sec.

Yep, that'll fix risk vs. reward alright! Completely kill ganking in high sec without adjusting rewards.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-06-16 04:26:20 UTC
Let me put it this way: the worse reputation low sec has, the fewer people will go there and the amount of prey available for piracy drops. I think that this is part of the reason for burn jita, hulkageddon, and ransoming for avoiding wardecs is happening in hi sec... the more or less hardcore pvpers have basically drove most of the people in there and now they have to compensate some how if they want their kicks.

If you guys want people to come back into hi sec, you are going to have to do something to lure them back there... and part of that is going to begin with improving the reputation of the place. For example you could start by setting a rule among yourselves not to pod in low (unless it's a pirate who does pod in low). Or you can do something like having a no more than X ships destroyed per 24 hours rules... once it hits that number you leave that system alone, no matter what. You can contract back half the dropped fittings back to the other player for free or give them half the total value of what's left behind.

Think about it from a care bears perspective. If the pirates in low area X don't pod, don't blow up too many ships, and return part of the losses, and the pirates in area Y don't, area X is the better place to go to.

I can has blogging skills!
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#43 - 2012-06-16 04:45:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Ruareve wrote:
I think the first communication barrier is how a pirate is defined. I don't consider someone living in low sec and doing missions, mining, or whatever other kind of PVE is out there as a pirate. To me a pirate is someone who is below -5 security status from engaging other people. Don't have to live in low to be a pirate, it's just easier. Piracy is not where you live, it's the actions you take. From your responses Simi it seems you consider anyone living in low sec to be a pirate. So please consider my definition when you reply.

Not really, if someone sticks to their own guns and just does PvE in low sec I'd consider them a care bear.

But, take my main account as an example, I am not flashy red and I don't kill for the sake of it. Yet I do kill people regularly, usually to get them the hell out of my sites.

I PvP purely to discourage them from clearing out exploration sites in my area, as such I am fighting for resources in low sec and would consider myself a pirate.

Ruareve wrote:
Now as for PVE ISK generation in low sec, it is definitely higher then a similar activity in high sec. Lvl 4's, complexes, exploration sites, ratting, and PI all have much better returns in low sec if you compare the activity itself. Where high sec closes the gap is in the ability to complete the PVE activities without someone trying to hunt you down. Then again I thought the point of being in low sec was to have freedom to fight other people without concord interfering. Not for the PVE, which is done when there are no targets, but for the PVP.

Buffing the returns on PVE won't change the reputation or reality of low sec, but changing the fundamental way low sec works will give the opportunity for people to actually hang around and have a chance of winning a fight and holding some territory.

I think you are confusing theme park MMO game design with sand box style game design.

In a sand box game PvE and PvP are not segregated, you do not have "PvP zones" or "PvP flags", and there is no protection whilst doing PvE from interference by other players. In such games areas like high sec are however still required as training grounds, or newbie areas, but somewhere along the line in Eve high sec has been buffed once too often and we have ended up with a newbie area where you can earn everything you need without risk of intervention.

This is not a sand box game design philosophy.

Ruareve wrote:
I'm not going to argue in regards to your feelings on a high sec income nerf. You seem convinced the only way to get people to live in null is make high sec so boring and dull the players will flock to a high income low sec utopia. I believe that should you nerf high sec income so much people feel forced to go to low or endure some crazy grind the majority will just leave the game. In the end low will have even fewer people reducing the opportunities to conduct piratey activity. Pretty sure we are just gonna have to agree to disagree on this one.

My point about departing a PVE mission when someone comes looking is valid. You agreed you'd have to leave, reship, and come back. That ends the PVE mission and slows down the income you can make. Had you not been interrupted you would have made more on that mission than someone else doing the same mission in high sec. The problem with low sec though is you will almost always be interrupted as pointed out earlier in this post.

So for you boring is making slightly less ISK? Interesting.

I cannot even remember the last time I was interrupted running a site in low sec, maybe a few weeks ago? And the last time I lost a PvE ship was ~2008 I think. Coming from someone that PvEs nearly constantly in low sec and wormholes, that might help give you an idea of how "dangerous" low sec PvE is.

Ruareve wrote:
Buffing the income of low sec won't rejuvenate the pirating industry. Make the income high enough and you'll just attract null alliances to come in with caps and super caps to make easy income. Pirates rely on a steady population moving around in order to conduct raids and PVP on others. The only way to have that population is make low sec attractive to players in high sec and the only way to do that is to provide an opportunity to learn PVP without also allowing much larger groups to come in and roflstomp with supers and caps.

Few people will just jump into the deep end of a pool to learn how to swim. Instead they start shallow and practice the moves before going into deeper water. Eve expects people to go from hanging out at the hot tub then jumping straight into 20ft of water with almost nothing in between. It's a flawed system and the reason why low sec is under populated. Without a sufficient population to prey upon the number of pirates is also going to decline.

Good thing I wasn't suggesting people buff low sec then, eh?

As for jumping into low sec, I'll agree there is an issue with getting players to actually learn the mechanics and techniques that would allow them to survive and operate there. Terrible training alliances like Eve-Uni probably don't help, who seem to in my experience foster the idea that low sec is some kind of horrid death trap.

But the answer to that issue isn't to make Eve easier, the best answer would be for more visible links in-game to out of game guides and forums. For example this forums has a few excellent threads guiding players through ninja-plexing in null sec, but most players will never see it or read it and will continue on under the assumption that jumping into null sec is suicide.

The techniques exist to profit massively in low sec already, guides exist showing you those techniques, CCP just need to make new players more aware of those guides. Helping people get into (decent) training corps would help as well.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#44 - 2012-06-16 04:47:19 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:
Let me put it this way: the worse reputation low sec has, the fewer people will go there and the amount of prey available for piracy drops. I think that this is part of the reason for burn jita, hulkageddon, and ransoming for avoiding wardecs is happening in hi sec... the more or less hardcore pvpers have basically drove most of the people in there and now they have to compensate some how if they want their kicks.

If you guys want people to come back into hi sec, you are going to have to do something to lure them back there... and part of that is going to begin with improving the reputation of the place. For example you could start by setting a rule among yourselves not to pod in low (unless it's a pirate who does pod in low). Or you can do something like having a no more than X ships destroyed per 24 hours rules... once it hits that number you leave that system alone, no matter what. You can contract back half the dropped fittings back to the other player for free or give them half the total value of what's left behind.

Think about it from a care bears perspective. If the pirates in low area X don't pod, don't blow up too many ships, and return part of the losses, and the pirates in area Y don't, area X is the better place to go to.

That is the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

Maybe to help rebalance incursions care bears should have just promised not to make over x amount of ISK per hour?

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2012-06-16 04:51:17 UTC
My Opinion is this matter is pretty simple:
1. High Security PVE has become increasingly profitable thus reducing the viability of Low Sec PVE.
2. 0.0 has become increasingly stable thus reducing the random through travellers.
3. Jump Freighters have become responsible for large amounts of logistics, this started with Alliances, then trickled down to corps, and now many individuals have their own Jump Freighters, thus removing Industrial traffic.

As the number of potential targets has dwindled the number of pirates has followed suite.
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2012-06-16 04:54:11 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:
Let me put it this way: the worse reputation low sec has, the fewer people will go there and the amount of prey available for piracy drops. I think that this is part of the reason for burn jita, hulkageddon, and ransoming for avoiding wardecs is happening in hi sec... the more or less hardcore pvpers have basically drove most of the people in there and now they have to compensate some how if they want their kicks.

If you guys want people to come back into hi sec, you are going to have to do something to lure them back there... and part of that is going to begin with improving the reputation of the place. For example you could start by setting a rule among yourselves not to pod in low (unless it's a pirate who does pod in low). Or you can do something like having a no more than X ships destroyed per 24 hours rules... once it hits that number you leave that system alone, no matter what. You can contract back half the dropped fittings back to the other player for free or give them half the total value of what's left behind.

Think about it from a care bears perspective. If the pirates in low area X don't pod, don't blow up too many ships, and return part of the losses, and the pirates in area Y don't, area X is the better place to go to.



The reason Burn Jita and Hulkageddon occur is because High Security dwellers who post drivel like yours have a bad reputation. The worse your reputation in posting becomes the more these events will occur.
Linna Excel
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-06-16 05:41:51 UTC
Stop thinking about it from your side only. You want people to come into low or null, you've got to use the right bait. If there isn't anything in it for them, frankly they don't give a crap about your desire to pvp. To the typical care bear, losing X amount of investment, some of which might have come in through plex doesn't sound very appealing so the PvPers can get their kicks.

Let's turn the tables around. Let's say CCP releases the carebear miner, it has unlimited tank and no weapons, but insta pops anything that attacks it as a special ability. You as a pvper wouldn't find it very fun if that's the only thing people flew now would you. Now imagine this carebear asking you to attack him so he can salvage your wreck and take your dropped mods.

You probably wouldn't be very interested in doing so now would you?

You'd get no tears, no loot, nothing for your KB and you'd lose a ship in the process. You'd whine at CCP, scream about things being unfair, put 100 ragequit threads on the forums etc. and generally you'd avoid pvping those ships because they are insta-win against you.

Well, that's how they feel about you. For the typical non-pvper, there's nothing in it for them so they avoid the areas as much as possible. If you want more traffic in low or null so you can PvP, you'd have to work out some sort of compromise the other party. That's not insane, drivel, or stupid BS, that's common sense.

Whining crybaby PvPers who feel entitled to PvP without giving up anything in return are part of the reason why the game is in the state it is. All you want is fun and epeen but you aren't willing to put in the hard work needed for it. Well guess what? Part of the hard work is social and political and ur doin it wrong. If you think PvP is fun, that's fine but you are going to have to work for it.

The funny thing is, I don't see how you guys don't get it. A number of PvP guilds offer ship replacements for their own. The people who run those guilds understand the costs involved and know that people need ships to pvp.

So why don't you guys set up a RvB type thing where you have 2 sides and each one takes turns trying to blow up the other side's miners. You can have mining ops with guards, ship replacements for everyone, try to create a fun environment for all etc.

But you won't because that is work.

I can has blogging skills!
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#48 - 2012-06-16 05:47:01 UTC
Linna Excel wrote:
Stop thinking about it from your side only. You want people to come into low or null, you've got to use the right bait. If there isn't anything in it for them, frankly they don't give a crap about your desire to pvp. To the typical care bear, losing X amount of investment, some of which might have come in through plex doesn't sound very appealing so the PvPers can get their kicks.

Let's turn the tables around. Let's say CCP releases the carebear miner, it has unlimited tank and no weapons, but insta pops anything that attacks it as a special ability. You as a pvper wouldn't find it very fun if that's the only thing people flew now would you. Now imagine this carebear asking you to attack him so he can salvage your wreck and take your dropped mods.

You probably wouldn't be very interested in doing so now would you?

You'd get no tears, no loot, nothing for your KB and you'd lose a ship in the process. You'd whine at CCP, scream about things being unfair, put 100 ragequit threads on the forums etc. and generally you'd avoid pvping those ships because they are insta-win against you.

Well, that's how they feel about you. For the typical non-pvper, there's nothing in it for them so they avoid the areas as much as possible. If you want more traffic in low or null so you can PvP, you'd have to work out some sort of compromise the other party. That's not insane, drivel, or stupid BS, that's common sense.

Whining crybaby PvPers who feel entitled to PvP without giving up anything in return are part of the reason why the game is in the state it is. All you want is fun and epeen but you aren't willing to put in the hard work needed for it. Well guess what? Part of the hard work is social and political and ur doin it wrong. If you think PvP is fun, that's fine but you are going to have to work for it.

The funny thing is, I don't see how you guys don't get it. A number of PvP guilds (lol - Simi) offer ship replacements for their own. The people who run those guilds understand the costs involved and know that people need ships to pvp.

So why don't you guys set up a RvB type thing where you have 2 sides and each one takes turns trying to blow up the other side's miners. You can have mining ops with guards, ship replacements for everyone, try to create a fun environment for all etc.

But you won't because that is work.

Posting to confirm that anything that comes into low sec is insta-popped, and that sand box MMO game design is all about segregating PvP and PvE so that we can have ~virtual combat~ for no apparent reason.

As a member of the high council of low sec pirates I shall put your proposal before them forthwith.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
ModeratedToSilence
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#49 - 2012-06-16 10:01:12 UTC
Linna Excel: the never been there done that expert on everything. The problem is pretty obvious, risk vs reward is out of whack. until Low Sec provides the returns it is worth taking a risk over it will be redundant.
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