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Establishments in Winter 2011 Expansion, yes or no?

First post First post
Author
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2011-10-06 18:49:26 UTC
Marketing, Public relation, Feedback

Just thought i would leave it there .
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#62 - 2011-10-06 18:50:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jade Constantine
Two step wrote:
I think a lot of people were looking forward to establishments because they were such a blank canvas, and people saw in them whatever features they wanted to see. We (both CSM and the public) certainly never saw any details on the actual *gameplay* that they were going to provide, so everyone naturally assumed their favorite pet feature would be present.

I'd like to see a concrete proposal from CCP on what sort of *fun* we will have in Establishments before they make it into the game.




I have to be completely honest and say that any possible interest I had in Incarna/establishments etc was near completely erased by the NeX concept and the realization that Incarna was basically envisaged as a microtransaction vanity display cabinet rather than any form of meaningful gameplay. How can you get excited about customizing and prepping your own "establishment" when you know it will just involve being fleeced at NeX-store level greed for every seat cushion and holopainting in your bar?

The mere existence of NeX in Eve Online is a threat to traditionally-delivered content because its competing for design time and programming against core Eve content. For CCP to have any chance of making a profit from NeX it would have to a vehicle for the delivery of exclusive content and that alone would have had the impact of pushing out traditionally-delivered stuff (bpos/lp store/drops and PI manufacturing)

So the moment NeX launched I lost all hope for Incarna EVER having any worth in Eve Online because it wasn't part of Eve Online - it was an unwelcome intrusion of greedy marketing spiel and vanity nonsense that was parasiting on the development time desperately-needed by the core Eve experience.

Popping open the wallet and buying stupid monocles and plush bar chairs is not fun and content.

Exploring the depths of 0.0 gurrista space in search of rare drops from belt rats that can be manufactured into customizable death bunny head bar murals for an establishment where you sell elicit (and heavily player-customized combat drugs probably is.)

But the latter has nothing whatsoever to do with NeX.

As long as this horrible horrible MT currency abortion is active I don't see any future for Incarna whatsoever.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Pandemic Legion
#63 - 2011-10-06 18:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Seleene
In order for Incarna to have any chance whatsoever, there needs to be solid, interesting game play. That doesn't exist, nor has the CSM seen anything on the horizon that looks to change that. From 'that other forum':

Quote:
Since there never appeared to be a solid idea about what 'establishments' would bring to EVE, CCP basically postponed a feature that didn't exist in the first place.

Incarna has the potential to be amazing but in terms of importance, for example when allocating resources, it pales, or should pale, in comparison to spaceships. Certainly now, and probably for a long time to come as well. In the end, you can take Incarna out of EVE, but you can't take spaceships out of EVE.


Yep.

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

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Jita Alt666
#64 - 2011-10-06 18:53:29 UTC
Nice to see a large amount of rational common sense in this thread. CCP I hope you read thread like this and understand what your customers value.

Yes Incarna could be cool - but with nothing to do its a massive use of resources that could be used to fix things that irritate lots of us.
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#65 - 2011-10-06 18:57:43 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
People do not seem to understand the scope and the amount of hardware it will take to make a multiplayer environement for Incarna in stations.


How many people are docked at jita 4-4 on a regular basis, or in rens or dodixie or amarr? How much server power do you think this will take? It will be a lot. 4-4 alone will probably have its own server. CCP is making the right move, fix the spaceships, get all the lost accounts and players back. Once that is done and people are happy again, then move full speed ahead to multiplayer in stations.

That's why the amount of resources required to run CQ boggles my mind. Way, way too much to allow large groups in one setting.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.

Chris Sandstorm
Veni Vidi Vici Reloaded
#66 - 2011-10-06 18:58:44 UTC
And not a single **** was given that day.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
RONA Directorate
#67 - 2011-10-06 18:59:52 UTC
Grateler wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
People do not seem to understand the scope and the amount of hardware it will take to make a multiplayer environement for Incarna in stations.


How many people are docked at jita 4-4 on a regular basis, or in rens or dodixie or amarr? How much server power do you think this will take? It will be a lot. 4-4 alone will probably have its own server. CCP is making the right move, fix the spaceships, get all the lost accounts and players back. Once that is done and people are happy again, then move full speed ahead to multiplayer in stations.


Even if the technology is there, what would people do !?

/dance ?
/poke ?

Seems like a lot of development for not much gameplay.



/lapdance

Anyway, looking at it form a perspective. How many play EOH poker? why not be able to play it in game at a real table with avatars? OR like in the eve forever video of having a war target comeing up from behind you and sending you to a clone vat because of a knife in the back. But as they have stated before, drugs should not be on the market, they shoudl be done off the grid where no one can see you changing money.

simple stuff like that initially.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#68 - 2011-10-06 19:01:24 UTC
I demand my stripper bars!... erm... I mean gentleman's clubs!

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#69 - 2011-10-06 19:09:53 UTC
CCP Solomon wrote:
Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that don’t want it). However, we think you’ll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature was… well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

It’s humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when it’s ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.


I would dearly love to see a multiplayer avatar experience in EVE one day. I have always said and I will continue to say that in the long term, EVE needs avatar gameplay to continue to grow and evolve.

But the fact is your WiS platform is simply not ready to support that level of gameplay yet, and it is equally true that the FiS aspect of the game has simply been starved of resources too long. Right now, CCP's priority must be to ensure that there will be a "long term" in which WiS can eventually flower and grow.

It is my hope that a small, lean tean will emulate the shining success of Team Gridlock, and craft and improve the WiS engine to the point where it can realistically support the gameplay you want to give us and we'd love to have.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2011-10-06 19:16:08 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
I demand my stripper bars!... erm... I mean gentleman's clubs!

The word you're looking for is pleasure hub

Get classic forum style - custom videos to captains quarters screen

Play with the best - die like the rest

Versuvius Marii
Browncoats of Persephone
#71 - 2011-10-06 19:23:55 UTC
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.
Feel free to contract me all your items. If you'd be kind enough to move them to Jita or Amarr first, that'd be just awesome. And thank you.

The Gaming MoD - retro to modern, console to MMO, I blog about it if it's a game and I'm interested in it. Yes, I play games other than Eve and I don't care if you think I'm wrong.

mkint
#72 - 2011-10-06 19:25:58 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:


Anyway, looking at it form a perspective. How many play EOH poker? why not be able to play it in game at a real table with avatars?

why use avatars when a regular window interface would work better?
Quote:
OR like in the eve forever video of having a war target comeing up from behind you and sending you to a clone vat because of a knife in the back.

Why even leave your pod in that case?
Quote:
But as they have stated before, drugs should not be on the market, they shoudl be done off the grid where no one can see you changing money.

like station trading, that we have a window interface for already?
Quote:


simple stuff like that initially.

That's the problem... I want incarna to be interesting and fun, but so far I haven't seen any truly great ideas. If the activity is something that could be done in a window interface just as easily (like mini-games such as poker or that tanks one they showed at a fanfest) then WalkinginStations becomes WaitinginLine.

So, I guess that leaves us to ask, what is it other games do when they are walking around? Mass Effect has you walk and shoot (covered by Dust), or walk to agents (worst part of the game.) Other MMO's are either walk and fight, or walk and craft, or walk and fish, or /dance. Granted my MMO experience has mostly focused on EVE, but my other ventures into MMOland have all been variations on the same thing. Even with Second Life, the entire game is an elaborate Sitting in Bars.

If you discount all the combat games (as far as CCP has said in the past, Dust will be combat, incarna will be... not combat) that leaves puzzle/adventure games, which doesn't seem very EVE-y.

The only thing I can think of to make Incarna even remotely useful is to allow us to haggle with our mission agents, and allow us to haggle out of taxes, brokers fees, and the like. Maybe allow us to buy better insurance or something. Perhaps all that would depend on facial expressions of the agent and a haggling minigame.

And then have bars besides.

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Tristan North
The Scope
#73 - 2011-10-06 19:35:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tristan North
mkint wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:


Anyway, looking at it form a perspective. How many play EOH poker? why not be able to play it in game at a real table with avatars?

why use avatars when a regular window interface would work better?


Why use spaceships when colored squares would work better?
Too Much Effort
#74 - 2011-10-06 19:36:50 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
Khira Kitamatsu wrote:
CCP Solomon wrote:
Sadly, the Establishments feature will not be coming in the winter expansion. We hear you guys loud and clear and realize that there is still strong support for a multiplayer, avatar based experience in EVE (we also hear those that don’t want it). However, we think you’ll agree that it has to be a compelling experience and there was a feeling amongst our people that the direction we were taking with the Establishments feature was… well, not that fun. Additionally, we wanted to ensure that our rendering technology was finely tuned to a point that would ensure all of your characters continued to look great while performing well.

It’s humbling to see the support in this thread for a multiplayer Incarna experience and we are still committed to providing it, as and when it’s ready. We want to take the time to do it right and ensure you guys get something that is both fun and involving. There are no promises about when this will happen, just rest assured that while you are enjoying your space based updates this winter, there will continue to be movement on this.



That is what I needed to hear. Accounts cancelled.



That is what i needed to hear. Alts created and friends invited to EVE! :-)


You don't have any friends.
Aquila Draco
#75 - 2011-10-06 19:47:48 UTC
Elanor Vega wrote:
i see this "there will not be establishment anytime soon" as "we finished first step of development of WoD technology" and "you will not get anything of it because you are test hamsters" and "when we finish all for WoD then you (maybe) will get some crumbs of that technology"

in one opinion... too much development time spent to give us one big NOTHING... and you said to us that you don't want to limit yourself in some time period to give us something of that technology... so... we are back at the beginning of "incarna story" many years ago... and this was not 18 months... this was many years old story and counting...

just a humble opinion...



i would not be that harsh... but not far from that opinion...
Kumq uat
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#76 - 2011-10-06 19:49:38 UTC
I know Istvaan was wanting to open some kind of establishment. Perhaps we could set up a real club based on Guiding Hand. At any rate, FiS first, establishments later, etc. I am really looking forward to both Hybrid balancing and Assault Ship buffing. SUPER ISHKUR GO!
Grateler
People's Front of Offugen
#77 - 2011-10-06 19:55:07 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Grateler wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
People do not seem to understand the scope and the amount of hardware it will take to make a multiplayer environement for Incarna in stations.


How many people are docked at jita 4-4 on a regular basis, or in rens or dodixie or amarr? How much server power do you think this will take? It will be a lot. 4-4 alone will probably have its own server. CCP is making the right move, fix the spaceships, get all the lost accounts and players back. Once that is done and people are happy again, then move full speed ahead to multiplayer in stations.


Even if the technology is there, what would people do !?

/dance ?
/poke ?

Seems like a lot of development for not much gameplay.



/lapdance

Anyway, looking at it form a perspective. How many play EOH poker? why not be able to play it in game at a real table with avatars? OR like in the eve forever video of having a war target comeing up from behind you and sending you to a clone vat because of a knife in the back. But as they have stated before, drugs should not be on the market, they shoudl be done off the grid where no one can see you changing money.

simple stuff like that initially.


These are the only two things that WiS supporters ever raise, gambling and Drug smuggling.

Gambling is a minigame that adds nothing to Eve, if you want to play online poker play online poker. Sure it would be a bit of fun, but worthy of years of development?

You wont be able to attack people in stations.

Drugs? What walking to an avatar and buying them would be interesting ? Again, not worthy of the development.

The sad truth is that WiS and avatars sound great and funky, but arent actually of much use in this game. We would just end up with an Ironforge where people stand still doing nothing until they are ready to actually play the game.

I think CCP have put a lot of resources into Incarna and realised now that the end result wasnt going to actually be any use.


IGNATIUS HOOD
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2011-10-06 20:26:57 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
Would you accept no for an answer without making an issue about it ?


IC what you did there!
"Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit upon his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin slitting throats."   --H.L. Mencken
Jashmyne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#79 - 2011-10-06 20:47:46 UTC
Grateler wrote:

The sad truth is that WiS and avatars sound great and funky, but arent actually of much use in this game. We would just end up with an Ironforge where people stand still doing nothing until they are ready to actually play the game.

I think CCP have put a lot of resources into Incarna and realised now that the end result wasnt going to actually be any use.

Actually it would be of great use for RPers which is really what WiS is meant for and which RPers are currently waiting for.
Why would a PVP player care about walking around in a station ? As you said, you can't kill anyone there but for RPers that doesn't matter. They want a enviroment where they can connect to their characters and interact with each other.
CCP got the character part done and ready and parts of the enviroment. Now just need the rest like the bars with mini-games in them.
Flamespar
WarRavens
Imperium Eden
#80 - 2011-10-06 20:51:26 UTC
OMG. A straight answer from CCP!

Here is my personal prediction.

Nothing new for Incarna for 12 months. Except maybe some refinements and new functionality for the captains quarters.

Then they will relaunch it as actual expansion with content and compelling gameplay.