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Vanguard Un-Nerf

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ISeeDeath
Cogs and Sprogs Starship Mechanics
#41 - 2012-06-15 08:52:40 UTC
Hi

They say they are listening. Thats a good start. But

My major concern is lack of doing anything within a reasonable timeframe.

After ruining so many peoples fun in game. Doing litteraly nothing or nothing effective in two month and then ask for more time to rething and reevaluate feedback in not "timely manner" in my view.

Looking at the decreasing number of people logged in speaks for its self.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#42 - 2012-06-15 09:33:26 UTC
incursions had to go.
Too much ISK generation.
Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#43 - 2012-06-15 14:06:28 UTC
I just find it interesting that the way CCP chose to 'fix' the issue was the most useless way.
I understand starting from the bottom and working up to find the balanced fix, but frankly, from the playerbase perspective it seems like you're not even trying.
You guys completely ruined a significant game play element and you don't seem to have any desire to fix the issue. You're talk is good but you're actions are the opposite.

The payout nerf is fine. It's the gameplay elements that ruined it.
Why not change one of the other things instead like removing the random spawns?
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2012-06-15 15:17:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucy Ferrr
It is still quite possible to make 80+mil isk an hour running incursions in High-sec, I don't really see a reason to 'un-nerf' them. They make way more than lvl4's even though they are no harder and one does not need to grind standing to do them. Just because you suck at incursions and it takes you 20min to clear a VG site doesn't mean the rest of us suck.

Just a quick search of youtube and I found this vid of people clearing OTAs in 5:40 post-patch (youtube). We can do it quicker. But there is proof it can be done, and you are just failing. Instead of asking how can CCP make Eve easier for me you need to be asking how can I make myself better at Eve.
BearJews
Order of Extrodinary Gentlemen
#45 - 2012-06-15 17:02:51 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
It is still quite possible to make 80+mil isk an hour running incursions in High-sec, I don't really see a reason to 'un-nerf' them. They make way more than lvl4's even though they are no harder and one does not need to grind standing to do them. Just because you suck at incursions and it takes you 20min to clear a VG site doesn't mean the rest of us suck.

Just a quick search of youtube and I found this vid of people clearing OTAs in 5:40 post-patch (youtube). We can do it quicker. But there is proof it can be done, and you are just failing. Instead of asking how can CCP make Eve easier for me you need to be asking how can I make myself better at Eve.

Don't be rediculous. Like a lot of people have said, finding a fleet is a challenge these days, and the Lack of OTAs despawning after finishing them makes it a very big challenge to make good isk.

I've run with the shiniest of shiny. It took me 2 hours to get into the fleet, then i ran it for almost two hours making 140 mil isk. I can do the same in just two hours running lvl4 missions if I wanted to.

it's not about making eve easier, it's about nerfing incursions too hard and effectively killing the community.
Keith Planck
Hi-Sec Huggers
#46 - 2012-06-15 18:15:39 UTC
CCPAffinity
Also, it's worth noting that we are rolling back the 10% reward reduction. This is not the same thing as increasing the current payout by 10%. eg: 1000 reduced by 10% = 900 which becomes the new payout amount - so 900 increased by 10% is 990

http://mlfw.info/f/2657/
I think the big problem is going to be balancing difficulty vs payout, they have to be easy enough so that public fleets will form and run them, but have a low enough payout that they aren't abused. That means easy sites with either a low payout, or long completion time. I'm hoping for the latter because longer sites means more time to go get snacks while my fleet dies :X
Also, thank you for gracing my humble post with a blue ribbon. (Get it, its a horse joke hurr hurr)

Tragedy wrote:
So they wanna un-nerf incursions because people have cried so much? God I might have to join the incursion gankers...

Please do, I've never had more fun in incursions then when skunkworks was working their magic, (mostly on people who don't speak english). It just adds a whole layer of easily avoidable danger, like sitting in your car while its raining :3 There arn't nearly enough people taking advantage of incursions TBH, we are a very trusting people after so many months of peace.

Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
They're un-nerfing that part of them because they make less isk than L4s, but require a lot more effort.

Why should ten people in expensive battleships, constantly under thousands of incoming dps, NOT make more isk than a random joe soloing L4s with no risk at all?

Trouble is, HQ fleets are the top-tier, and make about 60m/hr when running smoothly, which is definitely not always the case. That's still less than a well-skilled L4 runner...but if vanguards go above that, they're un-balanced again....


I think that's the way that CCP originally intended it, but HQs have evolved into the entry level site, especially for logistics. The community that has grown around HQs (TVP) doesn't care at all how much DPS you do, they just want to get you through the site. It's kinda a E-Uni approach... Now they just have enough people who keep coming back that 10 or so pilots can carry the entire fleet.

Lipbite wrote:


Incursions weren't changed for years so subscriptions paid by incursion runners were used to develop other content. I believe most of those money was used to develop content for low/null-sec because I didn't hear about massive content patches for hi-sec in years (though I didn't hear about *any* massive content patches for years).

Also I suspect DarthNefarious isn't the only unsubscribed person because incursions were end-game content and a wet dream for many (if not most) hi-sec dwellers and I suspect after Inferno thousands of them lost their hope to get into incursions and "get rich quickly" one day - after months of dull farming of low profit, boring L4s. So there must be hundreds (if not thousands) unsubscribed accounts .

This nerf was everyone's massive loss. Even though some players doesn't understand it yet.

I think hundreds if not thousands is pushing it a bit, only CCP knows for sure...

Also I believe it was the faction warfare system that got the overhaul, not null.
Null is player driven in every way shape and form, even the value of tec moons was brought on because of players, it doesn't need content to grow, it just needs DRAMA tee hee

Just Alter wrote:
.
I think that everybody, 0.0 people, pirates, gankers etc. should start seeing that the problem is not balacing incursions but getting ccp to listen.


They did listen to a few people, they HQ community is getting the fix they wanted and it's going to put them in a very good spot.

BearJews
it's not about making eve easier, it's about nerfing incursions too hard and effectively killing the community.

Vanguard's pre-patch could make anywhere from 0-150mil/hr once you got into a fleet.

(Note that 150mil/hr was 1 Basi spider tanking with 12 on grid getting extremely lucky and ONLY doing OTAs, so that didn't happen often.)

The payout nerf was a step in the RIGHT direction TBH, everyone has been crying the same thing for CCP.


What will work:
Difficulty (not just losing your ship but how much DPS you'd have to do and how hard it is to find a decent fleet)
Assaults > HQs > VGs > L4s

Possible Isk
Assaults > HQs > VGs > L4s

Current state of the community:
Difficulty
VGs > Assaults > HQs > L4s

Possible Isk
Assaults > HQs > L4s > VGs

Just like CCP is giving ships specific roles, incursion sites need specific roles...


DarthNefarius wrote:


The partial un nerf (rollback) does not address the real issue which floored the Vanguards: OTA's are now too dificult and are stacking like pancakes.
I've unsubscribed and my subscription time runs out in under 24 hours


http://mlfw.info/f/628/

♞
Spineker
#47 - 2012-06-15 19:01:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
Mazzy Star wrote:
Spineker wrote:
As if there is any risk in tardnull sec.


People lose expensive ships ratting in null every day. We killed some fool in a carrier earlier today, and we've had fools in alliance lose equally expensive ships to hostiles in our space. While I've seen people lose expensive ships in vanguards (once), it's far from the norm. While intelligent pilots are pretty safe in null sec (or in any kind of space for that matter), there's still risk involved.

Also, I don't really have a problem with incursions paying well, but they need to find a way to increase the difficulty to compensate for the elevated income. There was absolutely nothing challenging about nor any thought involved in blitzing OTA after OTA in shiny ships before. It was simply a grind and there was very little that could go wrong. I'm hopeful and optimistic that CCP can find a way to involve incursions so that they are fun and challenging while at the same time paying out a fair ISK/hr (i.e., more than high sec missions, less than null anoms/sites).



People lose ships in Highsec everyday in fact FAR MORE SHIPS ARE destroyed in highsec than low/null. Nullsec is for epeeners

Nullsec is far safer than getting ganked in high/low.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#48 - 2012-06-15 21:33:17 UTC
Spineker wrote:


People lose ships in Highsec everyday in fact FAR MORE SHIPS ARE destroyed in highsec than low/null. Nullsec is for epeeners

Nullsec is far safer than getting ganked in high/low.


According to CCP, some 50% of all combat losses occur in Nullsec. Lowsec has another ~20%, WH space some 10%, and HiSec some 20%.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-06-15 22:45:56 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Spineker wrote:


People lose ships in Highsec everyday in fact FAR MORE SHIPS ARE destroyed in highsec than low/null. Nullsec is for epeeners

Nullsec is far safer than getting ganked in high/low.


According to CCP, some 50% of all combat losses occur in Nullsec. Lowsec has another ~20%, WH space some 10%, and HiSec some 20%.


[citation needed]
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2012-06-15 23:31:24 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
Elsa Nietchize wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Spineker wrote:


People lose ships in Highsec everyday in fact FAR MORE SHIPS ARE destroyed in highsec than low/null. Nullsec is for epeeners

Nullsec is far safer than getting ganked in high/low.


According to CCP, some 50% of all combat losses occur in Nullsec. Lowsec has another ~20%, WH space some 10%, and HiSec some 20%.


[citation needed]


Sounds like BS pulled fresh out of a goon's bottom.Big smile

Here are some real stats:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3235

High Sec
8,291,948

Low Sec
4,637,594

Null Sec
7,630,341

Wormhole Space
539,912

Total
21,099,795
Apolyon I
Shadow of ISW
#51 - 2012-06-15 23:53:51 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Spineker wrote:


People lose ships in Highsec everyday in fact FAR MORE SHIPS ARE destroyed in highsec than low/null. Nullsec is for epeeners

Nullsec is far safer than getting ganked in high/low.


According to CCP, some 50% of all combat losses occur in Nullsec. Lowsec has another ~20%, WH space some 10%, and HiSec some 20%.

dont bother arguing with them, CCP states that it won't ever be like before

those carebears can either run L4s or just unsub, noone gives a f.

btw, I'm making 500m/hr straight 5 hrs in wh, you carebears jelly??
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-06-16 00:56:58 UTC
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
It is still quite possible to make 80+mil isk an hour running incursions in High-sec, I don't really see a reason to 'un-nerf' them. They make way more than lvl4's even though they are no harder and one does not need to grind standing to do them. Just because you suck at incursions and it takes you 20min to clear a VG site doesn't mean the rest of us suck.





Facepalm.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#53 - 2012-06-16 02:03:58 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Elsa Nietchize wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Spineker wrote:


People lose ships in Highsec everyday in fact FAR MORE SHIPS ARE destroyed in highsec than low/null. Nullsec is for epeeners

Nullsec is far safer than getting ganked in high/low.


According to CCP, some 50% of all combat losses occur in Nullsec. Lowsec has another ~20%, WH space some 10%, and HiSec some 20%.


[citation needed]


Dev Blog by CCP Diagoras:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3235


PVP Kills from December 2007 to November 2011:
HS: 1,974,022 ~15%
LS: 4,126,911 ~30%
00: 7,061,988 ~53%
WH: 377,786 ~3%
Total: 13,540,707


Sorry, I my recollection overcounted WH Space and HS at the expense of LS.


[citation provided]


EDIT: Seems someone above me wants to count PvE losses as combat losses. Just because you're terrible at PvE doesn't mean it's dangerous.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2012-06-16 02:23:48 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Elsa Nietchize wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Spineker wrote:


People lose ships in Highsec everyday in fact FAR MORE SHIPS ARE destroyed in highsec than low/null. Nullsec is for epeeners

Nullsec is far safer than getting ganked in high/low.


According to CCP, some 50% of all combat losses occur in Nullsec. Lowsec has another ~20%, WH space some 10%, and HiSec some 20%.


[citation needed]


Dev Blog by CCP Diagoras:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3235

High Sec
8,291,948

Low Sec
4,637,594

Null Sec
7,630,341

Wormhole Space
539,912

Total
21,099,795


Sorry, I my recollection overcounted WH Space and HS at the expense of LS.


[citation provided]


EDIT: Seems someone above me wants to count PvE losses as combat losses. Just because you're terrible at PvE doesn't mean it's dangerous.


Incursion losses = 0, once you exclude incursion losses.

By the same token:
Pvp losses = 0, once you exclude pvp losses.

Once you exclude losses from what you don't like, only what like has losses.Lol
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#55 - 2012-06-16 02:28:00 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
sabre906 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Elsa Nietchize wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Spineker wrote:


People lose ships in Highsec everyday in fact FAR MORE SHIPS ARE destroyed in highsec than low/null. Nullsec is for epeeners

Nullsec is far safer than getting ganked in high/low.


According to CCP, some 50% of all combat losses occur in Nullsec. Lowsec has another ~20%, WH space some 10%, and HiSec some 20%.


[citation needed]


Dev Blog by CCP Diagoras:
http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=3235


DON'T RADICALLY CHANGE WHAT PEOPLE SAY WHEN YOU QUOTE THEM (unless you're doing a FYP post)


Sorry, I my recollection overcounted WH Space and HS at the expense of LS.


[citation provided]


EDIT: Seems someone above me wants to count PvE losses as combat losses. Just because you're terrible at PvE doesn't mean it's dangerous.


Incursion losses = 0, once you exclude incursion losses.

By the same token:
Pvp losses = 0, once you exclude pvp losses.

Once you exclude losses from what you don't like, only what like has losses.Lol


I specifically said "Combat Losses" when I made my first post on the subject. You're saying that shooting little red crosses is "combat?"

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2012-06-16 02:35:39 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
RubyPorto wrote:

I specifically said "Combat Losses" when I made my first post on the subject. You're saying that shooting little red crosses is "combat?"


Don't know what combat is? Read the combat guide:Big smile
http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Guides:PvE_Combat

Clearly, combat that I don't like don't count as combat. I like it, or it didn't happen.Cool
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#57 - 2012-06-16 02:39:31 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
sabre906 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

I specifically said "Combat Losses" when I made my first post on the subject. You're saying that shooting little red crosses is "combat?"


Don't know what combat is? Read the combat guide:Big smile
http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Guides:PvE_Combat

Clearly, combat that I don't like don't count as combat. I like it, or it didn't happen.Cool


Gotcha. Shooting the ebil red crosses is glorious combat. Glad we're clear on it.

In that case, Null still has roughly 50% of Combat losses.


EDIT: Seriously, the top ships that NPCs killed in that time were the frigates that you get for Free in the Career missions.

Condor
416,008

Atron
370,865

Slasher
262,312

Rifter
225,672

Kestrel
222,612

Suggesting that many of the "combat" losses in HS are newbies just learning to fly the plane.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
sabre906
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-06-16 02:46:19 UTC  |  Edited by: sabre906
RubyPorto wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

I specifically said "Combat Losses" when I made my first post on the subject. You're saying that shooting little red crosses is "combat?"


Don't know what combat is? Read the combat guide:Big smile
http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Guides:PvE_Combat

Clearly, combat that I don't like don't count as combat. I like it, or it didn't happen.Cool


Gotcha. Shooting the ebil red crosses is glorious combat. Glad we're clear on it.

In that case, Null still has roughly 50% of Combat losses.


Look, a loss is a loss. Your boat popped. However it happened, you lost your boat.

Loss is relative to what you have. A noob losing his trusty friggie is a loss to him. Chribbia losing his outpost is a day in the good life.

Who's to say noobs losing their frigs in highsec is less of a loss to them than alts losing their rookie boats in sov null? Or is there just an assumption that those small losses are in highsec? With the number of Condor losses, you'd think one of the rookie systems would make the top 10 system list.

If you're going to rank some losses above others, all the null blob losses should rank near the bottom. Losing an insured corp boat isn't as much loss for the player than for the corp.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#59 - 2012-06-16 03:03:52 UTC
sabre906 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
sabre906 wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

I specifically said "Combat Losses" when I made my first post on the subject. You're saying that shooting little red crosses is "combat?"


Don't know what combat is? Read the combat guide:Big smile
http://www.eve-wiki.net/index.php?title=Guides:PvE_Combat

Clearly, combat that I don't like don't count as combat. I like it, or it didn't happen.Cool


Gotcha. Shooting the ebil red crosses is glorious combat. Glad we're clear on it.

In that case, Null still has roughly 50% of Combat losses.


Look, a loss is a loss. Your boat popped. However it happened, you lost your boat.

Loss is relative to what you have. A noob losing his trusty friggie is a loss to him. Chribbia losing his outpost is a day in the good life.

Who's to say noobs losing their frigs in highsec is less of a loss to them than alts losing their rookie boats in sov null? Or is there just an assumption that those small losses are in highsec? With the number of Condor losses, you'd think one of the rookie systems would make the top 10 system list.

If you're going to rank some losses above others, all the null blob losses should rank near the bottom. Losing an insured corp boat isn't as much loss for the player than for the corp.


Spineker wrote:

People lose ships in Highsec everyday in fact FAR MORE SHIPS ARE destroyed in highsec than low/null. Nullsec is for epeeners

Nullsec is far safer than getting ganked in high/low.



Except that this is what I was responding to. Safety from PvP Combat, or "Getting Ganked." From Spineker's second sentence, it's quite clear that we're talking about PvP (unless Red Crosses have started "ganking" people now).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Elsa Nietchize
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-06-16 11:07:31 UTC
is ganking pvp?