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People vs Tibus Heth: a note to capsuleer Caldari corporations.

Author
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#41 - 2012-06-15 15:28:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Kalaratiri wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Our WILL and HATRED makes every of us stronger than a number of sanshas.


Hatred should not be the foundation of your will. Surely even you can work out why.


Would that she could, pilot. Ms. Kim seems to regard hatred for the Gallente as a defining aspect of Caldari identity.

It's certainly true that certain aspects of Caldari society have evolved at least partially out of a desire to define ourselves as emphatically "Not Gallente." Design choices are an example: Caldari Prime may have taught the Caldari to value utility over aesthetics, but I think it's the Gallente who made us aggressive about it.

Losing a homeworld will do that to a people, even if the constant attempts to enlighten us wouldn't have.

(To the Gallente out there-- I'm looking at you, Ixiris-- no, our hands weren't wholly clean, either. I'm talking motivation for a multi-generational grudge, not moral justification. Any partisan can dig that up by turning over a rock; the world's not short on justifications for hate.)

But regardless of what we tell ourselves about grievances suffered, hate of a political or military enemy is the province of an uncomprehending mind. While it provides some motive force, it inhibits understanding, and therefore damages both the capacities for strategic thought and for making peace short of total victory. It also carries the potential for undermining one's own cause by "justifying" atrocity.

Also, being a passion, it's more fickle than Ms. Kim wants to make it.

Unsound ground to build a tower on. That is one reason the State is supposed to be a meritocracy: so that the clearest thinkers lead us. Tibus Heth's passion did restore the meritocracy's integrity (somewhat. It's never going to be perfect, and probably wasn't anywhere close even in the time of the Raata), but I doubt he realizes the corrosive effects of some of the other things he has done.

Making a virtue out of hate, as exemplified by our Ms. Kim, comes to mind.

Ah-- and before Ms. Kim reminds us that ours is not to question, but to obey, please to bear in mind that Tibus Heth was at one time a populist rebel. He became what he is by questioning, not by obeying. If we were truly to follow his example, we would be merrily conspiring to commit borderline treason.

For the good of the State, of course.
Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#42 - 2012-06-15 16:08:33 UTC
I hope everyone can indulge me; I'd like to comment, but first want to review what exactly has been said on a grand scale. The first rule of rhetoric is to know the positions that have been taken, after all.

As loyal Khross-haan has described, he fears the CPD has pulled us away from the roots that have always been our strengths. Loyal Kim-haani has taken the position that through obedience to the CPD we shall find the strength to defeat our foes and emerge from the conflict more powerful than ever.

This is a question that every Caldari faces. We are all part of several communities, and must come to terms with where our loyalties ultimately lie - a descending heiarchy of faithfulness in those cases when two of our groups come into conflict. My heart goes out to those who find their loyalties so torn - those loyal Ishukone Liberals who now find themselves at odds with the CPD are pulled in two directions - first, towards the will of the State, and the other, the will of Ishukone. In fact, should two dear loyalties come into conflict, sometimes taking ones' own life is the only solution that preserves the honour of both groups. This is a sad fate indeed. May we all find better ends.

This is a decision that each of us must make individually and together, in our families - it cannot be made for us. Tidus Heth in fact proposes to simplify this ancient problem, by making all entities within the State subordinate to the CPD and the Executor. This would effectively solidify the decisions of loyalty we have to face, it would make the choice for us. We would see greater quarterly efficiency from this action, and should everyone fall into line, greater social cohesion. These are all good things.

However, this structure is only strong in one direction. Conflict amongst ourselves is also one of our greater strengths. We do not always agree with one another, and we do not always act in unison. While we show a unified State outwardly, and will act together when needed, in the general sense we have always been divided amongst one another.

This is our long-term strength, the source of our future. Conflict weeds out the weaker ideas, and due to the bonds of fraternity we limit the suffering that conflict brings about. Those shining gems which emerge from our struggles are turned to good use by the State as a whole. This is our foundry of progress, and why we can claim those heights of potency we reach despite our small population and territory.

Our strength is our fluidity - the great bodies of the Corporations and their subsidiaries and teams, all moving amongst one another, generating heat and light in the cold. Tidus Heth and the Provists wish to fuse them together into a great mountain of strength. But they forget that old proverb - that fluid waves will wear down a mountain, given time. Strength is useless without mobility, and will decay beneath the battering surf of time.

Happy sailing, friends and allies. May you move with the currents and be taken to happy harbours.
Los Muertas
HDYLTA
#43 - 2012-06-15 20:05:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Los Muertas
I will not try and give an opinion on the affairs within the state besieged by the tyrant Heth, I am not of that state and I could give a crap less if the entire lot burns. What I have to say is that I find core statements posted here laughable as Wolfsbrigade is a failed Amarrian puppet that was kicked from the contested regions and has run with its tail to the State for protection from the Matar Hordes. Once arriving in their new sponsor state, they are now trying to re-write a story for themselves as loyal and dedicated soldiers for the State of the highest competency.

Where was you competency when your former allies were getting driven from Kourm, Arzad and all the rest?

Where was it when you betrayed your allies and brokered a deal with Gallente Capsuleers to act as bodyguards against the Matar? A deal which all but said "We will not get in the Matar's way of conquering all other Amarr contested systems, if you leave our one system alone", a deal that you chose to dishonor by the way.

Caldarian, you who are of that imprisoned state, know that you have a viper amongst you. They have pretty stories about how YOU should act and what YOUR code of honor should be, just know that when the chips are down, Wolfsbridage WILL sell you out to the Gallente to save their own asses.

Edit: To qualify my statements about this group I provide the following https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1332651#post1332651
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#44 - 2012-06-15 20:58:19 UTC
Kerri Knight wrote:

This has historically been a popular tactic of despotic regimes, to justify their use of broad, sweeping powers upon a necessary response to a "state of emergency" that exists. This, of course, leads to inherent conflicts of interest in that should the threat be defeated, they would then be expected to relinquish this abusive and unchecked authority. Power rarely seeks to diminish its available methods of control, preferring they be institutionalized and continued.

More often than not, even in those cases where the external threats are successfully quelled, anyone who questions or voices dissent are themselves labeled as threats that should be addressed. The view that anything but full-throated reverence and worship of his holiness the Executor means that such a person wishes to see the Caldari destroyed is the very sort of dangerous hyperbole that often emanates from entrenched power. Accusations of giving aid and comfort to the enemy, seeking to divide our nation at a time when a threat exists which demands our obedience will be made.

Recall, for example, the brutal repression of Intaki dissidents during the first war. As we see, this tendency to demand conformity actually leaves rifts that remain for generations and only serves to weaken the whole in the long-term.


We don't have mechanist neither for despotic, nor monarchic regimes yet. As you can see, the enemy is real and threat too. This war could not be avoided, it could only be delayed. Gallente's greed of power and desire of subduing other nations under their rule against our will to return home planet. Even if you stop it now, it will erupt later. And in order to win this war, we have to stay together.

Unfortunately, your whole reply is written from a position of obtaining "power", and this is quite gallentean approach. If you look carefully at Tibus Heth, you won't see a gallentean politician, who tears his fat rear-end to get power and wealth, but you will see a Caldari worker, who is striving for his State. I would like to cite another individual's position, that is somewhat close to yours, for my answer to be full, however I would prefer not name him:
Quote:
When Tibus Heth steps down from his position of authority and turns the State over to is true meritocratic roots and decentralized government that has always been the way of the Caldari people, I will consider him under a new light.

This is a typical response of those, who do not want State to be strong and win this war. Coordinated State is a real threat to enemies and they will do everything to separate us. They don't understand one simple thing:
the position of executor is a position that you need to take to coordinate the State.
To take this positions means been employed by the State. Say, if you are working, for example, in a factory to produce spaseships that are urgently needed for war, that you want to win with all your heart, would you "step down" from your position?

This form of "stepping down" is very gallentean too, just remember as Foiritan run away like a frog with burning tail, when federation was loosing horribly. He didn't have guts to stay in position, take responsibility for what he did wrong and fix it himself, he just run away, as most of gallentean would do.
And I would like to point again, this is not just a "power", this is a job that must be done. The position will eventually become obsolete when it won't needed anymore, and when corporations will need to compete amongst themselves instead of fighting enemy of all our corporations. What about replacement for Tibus Heth, at the moment not a single Caldari could compete against his merits.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#45 - 2012-06-15 21:08:15 UTC
Los Muertas wrote:
...


Thank you for your impassioned contribution, Muertas-jaijii. Your record of honourable conduct is plain, and I am glad for your contribution. Don't worry about your Caldari friends, however - we can take care of ourselves. All the same, we're grateful for your concern.

Strength of mountains to you in your struggle, Pilot.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#46 - 2012-06-15 21:38:18 UTC
Desiderya wrote:

I can understand your train of thought. Wars are fought by soldiers, not leaders, so it's in their best interest to win, because it won't be the leadership who'll suffer when things go awry.
We, the Honor Guard, are fighting on behalf of the State and its people. We've decided to focus on Black Rise, not just to do our part, but also to help and alleviate the damage inflicted onto our sovereign space. Our mission is patriotic, and nothing else.

I don't need to hear about you or your corporation. Really. And I didn't question your mission. If there's anything in your corporation that I'd question, it will be your current leadership.

Desiderya wrote:
Having you and your sort doubting our resolve just because we're no blueshirt yes-men is pathetic and just a prime example why Heth's populistic leadership is one of the prime demerits in itself - it fuels fanaticism and clouds the judgement of his followers.

For military personnel being "yes-man" means being professional.

Desiderya wrote:
He wanted to root out nepotism and yet you're discarding the opinions and deeds of others just because they're not subscribing to your own propaganda fueled view of the world. Just join the family, eh?

I am not discarding other opinions if they differ from mine, I am always opened to discuss everything (provided it as minimal gallentean as possible), but I'd prefer to discard opinions that are voiced with attacks, since using insults in a profound discussion means being not professional. The only way I accept using insults and personal attacks is when I consider my opponent being futile and conversation is unproductive, with the only reason: to annoy opponent and show how miserable he is. Of course any opinions in such conversation will be eventually discarded.

Desiderya wrote:

Not Heth, nor the CPD but blind and fanatical Provists like you are the problem.

I see you like to throw empty words at others too. Well done, I can consider you instead as being empty, blind and fanatical.
You asked me to try to insult you, so get this, you well deserved it.

Desiderya wrote:
When the day comes where you duties aren't needed anymore I'll have a nice cup of tea waiting for you - If you have any sense of honor left

Considering your position, why don't you take your tea yourself right now?
What about me, I am dead already for over 4 years now. I am dead because there was no Executor at that time. My hatred to gallente keeps me here and extends to everyone who opposes the State. There's nothing else left in me. They will disappear, and so will I.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-06-15 22:24:42 UTC
Dilaro thagriin wrote:

Blind hatred does not make you strong. It is a cancer that will eat away at the core of your society, until nothing but that hatred survives. It has happened in the past, and it will happen again.

The path i spoke of, and the dark ending it will lead to pertained to the Caldari. win or lose in the war, your current mindset will destroy everything you fight to save.

Kalaratiri wrote:

Hatred should not be the foundation of your will. Surely even you can work out why.

Blind hatred - does not. But controlled and directed hatred surely will. Hatred is a surely path to strength, but in order to use it, you must first learn to control it. Stay calm and professional, when you don't need it, and apply it with whole heart when you need strength. Uncontrolled and blind hatred is surely cancer and will destroy you, but when you learn to control and use it, it will became your most trusted ally.

Aria Jenneth wrote:

Ah-- and before Ms. Kim reminds us that ours is not to question, but to obey, please to bear in mind that Tibus Heth was at one time a populist rebel. He became what he is by questioning, not by obeying. If we were truly to follow his example, we would be merrily conspiring to commit borderline treason.

Of course, I will say that we should obey now, but you don't know me well. I myself do believe that one shouldn't always be obeying or questioning. There should be a balance and right time for obeying and questioning. When you see the State in degradation, nepotism and gallente mockery, there is a time for questioning. When you see the State in rise of strength, when there is a war going on, it is time to obey.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#48 - 2012-06-15 22:26:23 UTC
Kim,

As it has become abundantly clear that you are beyond reason and wisdom and I have observed not only myself, but my employees degrading our civility attempting to communicate with you; I have made it clear that we will cease communication with you.

May your path of service be profitable.

~Malcolm Khross

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-06-15 22:41:25 UTC
Scherezad wrote:

However, this structure is only strong in one direction. Conflict amongst ourselves is also one of our greater strengths. We do not always agree with one another, and we do not always act in unison. While we show a unified State outwardly, and will act together when needed, in the general sense we have always been divided amongst one another.

This is our long-term strength, the source of our future. Conflict weeds out the weaker ideas, and due to the bonds of fraternity we limit the suffering that conflict brings about. Those shining gems which emerge from our struggles are turned to good use by the State as a whole. This is our foundry of progress, and why we can claim those heights of potency we reach despite our small population and territory.

I am completely agree with you. Small conflicts between parts of the State made us stronger. But today, there is external conflict. A conflict with something, that is big, dark and ominous. This is a conflict for survival, like those that ancestors fought in Caldari Prime. Should we lose it, the Caldari will simply disappear, cease to exist. And each small conflict between parts of the State pulls away the power and makes us weaker and more vulnerable. There was a good time for such small conflicts, and it will be in future. But not now.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#50 - 2012-06-15 22:53:30 UTC
Malcolm Khross wrote:
Kim,

As it has become abundantly clear that you are beyond reason and wisdom and I have observed not only myself, but my employees degrading our civility attempting to communicate with you; I have made it clear that we will cease communication with you.

May your path of service be profitable.



Thank you.
Really, thank you. I will even close eyes on your usual groundless blatant insults and say you again thank you.
I really wish you'd never started to communicate with me in first place.
But this will do.

THANK YOU.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Scherezad
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#51 - 2012-06-15 22:55:42 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
But today, there is external conflict. A conflict with something, that is big, dark and ominous. This is a conflict for survival, like those that ancestors fought in Caldari Prime. Should we lose it, the Caldari will simply disappear, cease to exist. And each small conflict between parts of the State pulls away the power and makes us weaker and more vulnerable. There was a good time for such small conflicts, and it will be in future. But not now.

We are not so weak or desperate that we need to cast away our closest convictions and enslave ourselves to one ruler. We are at war, true, but our position is not so dire. Even in the heart of urgency, when we fled Caldari Prime - even then we were led by a council of our executives and not by the chairman alone. You disgrace your ancestors by invoking their name in the defense of this break with tradition., and I am quite sure you have simply let your passion get the better of you. Let us speak no more of it.

You show great patriotism and Heiian. You are undoubtedly the sword of our people. Cut for us a bright future, Diane Kim-haani, but use caution - in your fervor, do not cut us as well.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#52 - 2012-06-16 00:41:56 UTC
Not too sure what to make of the fact that you've got quite the bit of Achurans in this debate. The entirerity of State culture is based off of Caldari Prime. I'd even call it alienating.
Malcolm Khross
Doomheim
#53 - 2012-06-16 00:52:41 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Not too sure what to make of the fact that you've got quite the bit of Achurans in this debate. The entirerity of State culture is based off of Caldari Prime. I'd even call it alienating.


Considering the Achura are part of the State by choice and their culture is left entirely alone, I'd say it's more a matter of mutual respect and cooperation for each other's cultures.

~Malcolm Khross

Hoshisuuvi
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
#54 - 2012-06-16 00:52:49 UTC
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
The entirerity of State culture is based off of Caldari Prime. I'd even call it alienating.

The things they must be putting in your history books these days...
Syyl'ara
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2012-06-16 02:03:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Syyl'ara
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Not too sure what to make of the fact that you've got quite the bit of Achurans in this debate. The entirerity of State culture is based off of Caldari Prime. I'd even call it alienating.

That's an odd comment to observe a Fed making, considering the history of cultural dominance and quelling of vocal presence by minorities in a matter of policy discussion that affects the entire nation.

For many, it is the defining reason the entire conflict exists, so there's some subtle irony to savor in there.

Syyl'ara Infrastructure Security Coordinator Ishukone Prosperity Exchange "Cooperation is the greater path than conflict"

Victoria Stecker
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#56 - 2012-06-16 02:57:04 UTC
You know, I think I'd really like to see what the love child of Vaari and Diana comes out like. I imagine to be a creature so disconnected from reason and reality it might tear a hole in the fabric of space.

I think they should name it Charles.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#57 - 2012-06-16 03:50:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
Not too sure what to make of the fact that you've got quite the bit of Achurans in this debate. The entirerity of State culture is based off of Caldari Prime. I'd even call it alienating.


Well ... Achura (a.k.a. Saisio III) is part of the State because we are more culturally compatible with the Caldari than with the Federation. As a rule, we're not a very noisy people. We keep to ourselves.

Non-capsuleer Achur who leave our homeworld are usually well-educated, and find appropriate employment. The typical roles of the Achura in the Caldari State are to staff labs and classrooms, be uncomplainingly underpaid, read lots of science publications, teach meditation workshops, get very excited over esoteric discoveries, and confuse the Caldari.

"Hm? What? We've got a dictator now? ... Well ... okay, if you're sure it'll work. Can we talk about it later? I'm watching gluons."

The Caldari can worry over balances of power, production cycles, sales, profits, and on and on, to their hearts' content. We have a universe to explore.
Seriphyn Inhonores
Elusenian Cooperative
#58 - 2012-06-16 16:55:45 UTC
So, a quiet and philosophical culture is compatible with a heavily militaristic one that is characterized at the highest level by ruthless hypercapitalism, unethical corporate practices, and generally seeing no issues with starting wars and inflicting violence on civilians based on grudges that emerged during a conflict that no one here was around to live through.

It's a shame. If the Achur remained in the Federation, they might have produced many of our most notable Presidents, like the Intaki have done.

If the rest of you actually believe the Federation to go out of its way to oppress minorities (an odd statement, given that there is no dominating majority in this nation), then I don't think you know how soft power and "conquering peacefully" works. While the State enforces racial/ethnic lines that do nothing but perpetuate this conflict (though, war seems profitable to the Big Eight), the Federation is designed to champion ideals that transcend racial and cultural boundaries.

Sure, those ideals have their roots from Gallente Prime, but like any idea, it has been changed through interacting with the philosophies of other cultures within the Federation. The Provists and the State as a whole seem to forget that race and culture are ultimately trivial things, and that humans are, in essence, all the same. Many on this side of the Border Zone seem to forget that, too, but these are the Federation's founding principles, and this will be reminded when the radicalism perpetuated by the likes of President Roden and the military-industrial complex petters out.

It's a shame that, despite the advancements of humanity in ascending to the interstellar field, that founding nations and setting out policy based on petty ideas of race and culture is acceptable. A prehistoric mindset if there every was one. If you lot want to sit in your corner of the cluster, kicking and screaming about preservation of a culture that is ancient and outdated, when the rest of us in the Federation recognize universal human concepts, then be my guest.

Let's hope both sides run out of bullets before we run out of bodies.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#59 - 2012-06-16 17:26:32 UTC
The racial stereotypes are ridiculously strong in this thread. I expect that sort of stuff from Seriphyn, but seeing it come from an Honor Guard member is most disappointing.

Katrina Oniseki

Hoshisuuvi
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
#60 - 2012-06-16 18:05:23 UTC
Katrina Oniseki wrote:
The racial stereotypes are ridiculously strong in this thread. I expect that sort of stuff from Seriphyn, but seeing it come from an Honor Guard member is most disappointing.

We are all projects in progress, Oniseki, not finished products.