Jita Park Speakers Corner

The argument you just used Malcanis is getting really old. It does not matter if an old player can or can not make their clone cost fast or not. The fact that it cost what it does discourages PvPing in smaller ships regardless.

Well that is the point. You can choose the ship you fly in pvp. That way you can risk as much isk as you want. However your pod keeps getting more expensive, appart from not training there is nothing you can do about it. That is why is discourages veteran players to fly smaller ships in nullsec and wh's.

But the clone cost is known in advance so just factor it in.

Not supported.

Risk averse much? I believe this is relevant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VgvM7av1o1Q

Paying for your med clone is insurance for your skill points. If you haven't got the ISK, fly at your own risk and suffer the consequences should you get podded. Earn some ISK in game, or sell a PLEX then upgrade your clone. Either way, the problem is solved without the need to change game mechanics.

I'd just like to point out that the current increasingly heavy cost of clones encourages carebears to remain carebears, and discourages them from stepping out into the deeper waters. Because while it's easy to learn in a 500k frigate, when that frigate is backed by risking the loss of some 40+ million for a clone, a risk-averse PvE player is just going to declare it not worth the time and effort, whereas they might have gone on to become a great PvPer. Training up an alt to learn on has the same sort of investment, in time and either training time on your main or PLEX, again making it a discouraging factor.

I think we should be encouraging people to PvP, don't you?

Meh. It's not about affording them. It's a silly and archaic mechanic that is a (small) barrier to PVP.

To me, it's about the annoyance of having to refresh my clone when I do get podded. Losing SP because you forgot to click a few buttons and shell out an insignificant sum of cash seems points. Loss of implants and being relocated to your cloning facility is penalty enough.

Maybe have an NPC station cloning fee deducted upon activation of the clone?

Not supported.

All the ISK sink, PvP risk, lore arguments aside, losing your pod should bite. Losing your high-sp pod should bite harder. All the more reason to pay attention to what you're doing. All the more reason to win the fight if you find yourself in one.

I am not in favor of removing risk from the game. You take the risk, you pay the price.

If it doesn't feel like "I must be 7 kinds of stupid for taking a risk like this" from time to time, you're not doing it right.

Removing the risk of having to replace an expensive clone dilutes the experience, makes it that much less meaningful to engage in combat. It's not 'laying it on the line' any more. It's a stick fight with cushions at the ends. *giggle* that tickled.

A fight in EVE has to remain bloody, brutal and mean. You have to want to rip out the sink to throw it at the other guy/girl's head.

The next step is to fully insure your ship and its contents. More incentive for PvP because even less risk of losing valuables. Before you know it, we're bouncing around New Eden in a big rubber ball and nobody gets hurt anymore. Excuse me as I revisit my latest calorie download.

Don't take that vital risk away, don't destroy the character of EVE.

So your solution is to pay for your game time through either PLEX or cash, and then pay again not to lose the game time I've already bought? Flat out **** you. This has nothing to do with risk adverse. This has to do with losing potentially months of skill training.

If it weren't for warp bubbles, I would agree and say HTFU, learn to PVP. But because a pod has nearly no chance of escape if in a warp bubble, I think something should be done to make PVP more attractive for high-SP players.

In comparison, we as pod pilots always have the choice of whether or not to use implants. We get to choose which implants to use, if any. We can spend 0 isk or billions. It is entirely up to us. We accept the risk because it is our choice. We only lose isk.

But with clones, your choice is to pay out the nose, or lose weeks if not months of skill training. If you do not upgrade your clone you WILL lose SP. From http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/What_happens_when_my_character_dies :



My highest-ranked level 5 skill is Caldari Battleship. It and all racial BS skills are 8x skills. They have a maximum SP investment of 2,048,000 SP. Thus the maximum SP loss would be 1,024,000 SP. For a titan pilot, it would be twice that, since titans are 16x skills.

Now say for some reason I get podded in a fleet battle and end up at a facility with no clone vat and thus can't upgrade without going elsewhere. Undock and whammo. Instalocking Hurricane and sabre on the undock. Squish. 43.6M - 900,000 = 42.7M. 42.7M *.05 = Up to 2,135,000 SP lost. Fortunately, that is reduced to the maximum of 50%, or the above mentioned 1,024,000 SP. How would you like to lose 3 weeks of training time?

Now imagine what this does to a super cap pilot? Or a titan pilot? This is not about risk adversion. It's a guarantee. You WILL eventually get podded. Thus clone fees are simply a mandatory tax on all players for the privilege of undocking. It is one that effects high SP players far more than low SP ones.

The same isk sink effect could be had by instituting docking fees. However, these could be focused on larger ships, which is imo a much better indicator of wealth than SP. (Just a thought for comparison, not an actual suggestion.)

Forgetting to upgrade your clone when you cross the max SP rating of a clone is no big deal. But forgetting to upgrade after losing a clone or death clone jumping is another matter entirely. This is not about risk. The risk is 100% certain. You will get podded, and you will lose SP.

High SP pilots do not have a choice. They MUST insure or lose millions of SP when they get podded. And they will get podded, thus they have a mandatory isk-sink ranging into the hundreds of millions. The cost of clones is a major deterrent to high-SP pilots PvPing in nul. I believe a different formula is needed. A simple reduction of the costs would make things better, though not entirely solving the issue.

Another option is as indicated above, allow station owners to set the base cost and/or cost progression of clone fees. I find this to be a unique and potentially lucrative method of generating isk for the station owner while providing a valuable and highly desirable service. Station owners would have to compete for the best prices. This seems at first glance to be a fairly simple change, one that involves few dev resources beyond adding the appropriate UI elements to the already existing station interface. Thus it would likely fall under Team Superfriends. Send a note or twitter to CCP Punkturis.

Docking fees could be done exactly the same. Mandatory in empire, owner-set in nul. We already have this for repair fees. The lower cost of clones would likely be seen by high SP pilots an an advantage of operating in nulsec.

So you pretty much just summed up (with the help of a lot of nice numbers and formulae) that if you screw up in EvE it could really cost you, isk or time(SP)-wise. I think that was part of the game design, and working as intended.



Not a bad suggestion, but then free stations would be setup by all alliances more often than not. Most big alliances aren't looking to make cash from their pilots by way of fees. They make isk hand over fist by mining moon goo. Or mining belts. Or they charge system rental fees. Think about the incentive system you are toying with here: Big alliances WANT there members to keep on fighting, getting killed and coming back for more in fleet ops. Why do you think they supply grunt ships for free? Why would they ever want to charge their members for clones? This change will essentially be making clones free. Which has all the problems outlined already. Maybe this would be viable if with appropriate sov mods it could lower the clone cost (so that it costs the alliance something so that they cannot do it for all their stations) I think it would be okay if a very limited number (maybe even the headquarters station) of an Alliance Corp can set the cost of clones. That way, if goons try to burn Jita again, they can't take advantage of free clones as their only free clone station is far out in null.*

*But that's not really relavant, as we know goons use PvP/Gank alts. Which, I think, somebody suggested you should do as well, and problem solved.

The whole clone system is antiquated and needs a revamp. Yes I am in favor of reducing clone costs.