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Fixing Technetium

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Luis Graca
#41 - 2012-06-15 12:41:51 UTC
Poetic Stanziel wrote:
Luis Graca wrote:
7 hours later and i'm still waiting for the people that want moon minerals to spawn in deferents moons to tell me how would other alliances know here to strike if the moons are constantly changing
Apparently all you read was the tl;dr for the article. Otherwise, you would not be asking the same questions.



Where?
All i see is whining and noes
ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#42 - 2012-06-15 12:43:45 UTC
Read up to Kim Jong-Il looking at things, +1'd for that and lost interest. But you can keep the +1; I enjoyed KJI looking at a boat.

Dodixie > Hek
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2012-06-15 12:46:19 UTC
To add to possibilities, as mentioned elsewhere a small amount of Technetium could be sourced from Tech 2 ship wreck salvaging as an advanced salvager skill option.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#44 - 2012-06-15 12:47:45 UTC
I think it will be time to talk about when this comes up as serious business, witch means after summer and different ship balances crapventory efficiency/performance fixes.
Alia Gon'die
Outer Ring Applied Logistics
#45 - 2012-06-15 12:48:18 UTC
IIRC, ring mining is supposed to be kind of like a mining incursion fleet, where the minerals mined are moon goo.

Self-appointed forums hallway monitor Ask me about La Maison and what it means for you! http://bit.ly/LTW5gW These wardec rules are not in place for our protection. They're in place for yours.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#46 - 2012-06-15 13:43:21 UTC
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#47 - 2012-06-15 13:54:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Denidil
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).


So what exactly is Ring mining? and while i think OP's idea for creating shifting environment in nullsec to prevent stagnation won't work, i think the concept of something to prevent stagnation is a good idea.

something needs to keep huge regions of nullsec from becoming huge mutually blue blocks

edit: after google-fu was applied Ring mining is apparently a replacement system for moon mining where you have to scan down a materials ring and you can mine moon goo from it. i support this idea :D

i also thing i have some ideas for it.


rings, belts, clusters, comets ...

rings - could come in be pure "moon goo" and mixed "moon goo" & "asteroid" varities
belts - asteroids
clusters - small groups of large asteroids (kind of like current grav sites)
comets - small group of large moon goo iceballs

replace current grav sites with this.

add new mining crystals/mining laser types for moon good. (aka force a refit between goo and roid materials)

and yes.. even the rare highsec grav sites could spawn as (low end) moon goo sites.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#48 - 2012-06-15 13:56:48 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).



Do it.

And please: listen to Akita T this time.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#49 - 2012-06-15 13:57:51 UTC
Denidil wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).


So what exactly is Ring mining? and while i think OP's idea for creating shifting environment in nullsec to prevent stagnation won't work, i think the concept of something to prevent stagnation is a good idea.

something needs to keep huge regions of nullsec from becoming huge mutually blue blocks



As far as mutual interests are on the line, there's absolutely nothing you can do to prevent players working together to achieve common goals.

This is a fact many players are unable to understand.
CCP Soundwave
C C P
C C P Alliance
#50 - 2012-06-15 14:00:59 UTC
Denidil wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).


So what exactly is Ring mining? and while i think OP's idea for creating shifting environment in nullsec to prevent stagnation won't work, i think the concept of something to prevent stagnation is a good idea.

something needs to keep huge regions of nullsec from becoming huge mutually blue blocks


Ring mining would be getting moon minerals through collaborative PVE. It would take it out of the hands of the alliances and into the players hands. Realistically, the same people making ring mining are working on POSs, so doing them both at the same time seems to not be viable.

I'm not entirely sure I trust a system of dynamic resources in a game that's so built around settling down and carving your own piece of space. I think we could do it, but my issues are 1: is moving around fun gameplay? Does a 3000 man alliance want to ferry their stuff around every few months? 2: Is there any reason to invest in space if you know you have to move? Will territorial conquests become "seasonal" if players know a resource will move shortly? 3: is territorial conquest based on a certain resource, or are there other factors in play? (like do you choose where to invade because it's possible for an alliance of your size, do you choose your enemy because you don't like them etc).

I think there are a lot of questions to be answered and I'm not sure EVE is a game that would benefit from dynamic resources. I'd much rather invest in a system where we encourage conflict through social dynamics. Where you go to war because you dislike someone and want to e-stab them with your ship.
JitaPriceChecker2
Doomheim
#51 - 2012-06-15 14:02:35 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
What about the ring mining they are working on?


They have been "working" on it for two years now.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-06-15 14:07:53 UTC
moon rotation is great if you don't mind a permanent price spike in t2 items

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#53 - 2012-06-15 14:07:54 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Denidil wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).


So what exactly is Ring mining? and while i think OP's idea for creating shifting environment in nullsec to prevent stagnation won't work, i think the concept of something to prevent stagnation is a good idea.

something needs to keep huge regions of nullsec from becoming huge mutually blue blocks


Ring mining would be getting moon minerals through collaborative PVE. It would take it out of the hands of the alliances and into the players hands. Realistically, the same people making ring mining are working on POSs, so doing them both at the same time seems to not be viable.

I'm not entirely sure I trust a system of dynamic resources in a game that's so built around settling down and carving your own piece of space. I think we could do it, but my issues are 1: is moving around fun gameplay? Does a 3000 man alliance want to ferry their stuff around every few months? 2: Is there any reason to invest in space if you know you have to move? Will territorial conquests become "seasonal" if players know a resource will move shortly? 3: is territorial conquest based on a certain resource, or are there other factors in play? (like do you choose where to invade because it's possible for an alliance of your size, do you choose your enemy because you don't like them etc).

I think there are a lot of questions to be answered and I'm not sure EVE is a game that would benefit from dynamic resources. I'd much rather invest in a system where we encourage conflict through social dynamics. Where you go to war because you dislike someone and want to e-stab them with your ship.


I understand dev resource scarcity completely. I'm a software engineer myself - I'm patient, i can wait for awesomeness.

these are all very good questions, and using 'resource migration' is probably not a good way to encourage conflict in nullsec.

Tie the new ring mining system into the existing grav site spawning mechanisms (including upgraded systems). Ring Mining would be a huge boon for us "combat industrialists" who like both parts of the game, and it would reduce the amount of POS maintenance required of alliances.


I edited my post above with some idea's related to ring mining... probably nothing that hasn't bounced around your own heads

Quote:

rings, belts, clusters, comets ...

rings - could come in be pure "moon goo" and mixed "moon goo" & "asteroid" varities
belts - asteroids
clusters - small groups of large asteroids (kind of like current grav sites)
comets - small group of large moon goo iceballs

replace current grav sites with this.

add new mining crystals/mining laser types for moon good. (aka force a refit between goo and roid materials)

and yes.. even the rare highsec grav sites could spawn as (low end) moon goo sites.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#54 - 2012-06-15 14:10:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

...

I think there are a lot of questions to be answered and I'm not sure EVE is a game that would benefit from dynamic resources. I'd much rather invest in a system where we encourage conflict through social dynamics. Where you go to war because you dislike someone and want to e-stab them with your ship.



I think POS' first is a better idea anyways. Although the Ring Mining would really help shake things up, the POS system needs to be worked out so that when ring mining comes out, you know what to do with all the moon mineral POS' that are either obsolete, or less functional (what are you going to do with moon harvesting...)


I think you need a little bit of everything. Just like a good stew. You don't just stick some water and some salt and make something delicious!

You need some intrigue, you need some back stabbing, you need some power plays, you need some e-hatred, you need a little bit of everything. The real issue is with power blocs TODAY. Not with anything else.

The power blocs of EVE today are absorbing a lot of the wealth, and the ring mining would in theory break this down drastically and very quickly. VERY Quickly. Altough titans and supers will be there, the glue that binds them all together will start to disintegrate. I don't foresee the end of mega alliances, but I do foresee less incentive to have to "stick through with the alliance to earn my supercap", or the quick end to many of the ship replacement programs.

EVE is moving from the Feudalism system of "aristocrat" control of "land" (aka Moons) to a modern industrial model with ring mining and freely placed POS' and that means more capitalistic ventures on the individual, more opportunities for the single person to go out there and make a living, which means more conflict. Rather then mega conflicts over 1 POS with 500 people. ,you're going to have 500 people who are looking to make their own way (rather than rely on ship reimbursement), and that means they will be fighting over resources on a "small" scale, but on a distributed scale.

Mega fleet fights will still exist, but we're looking at a less unhealthy plan for it. One that relies on mutual interests and social dynamics to glue people together, rather than a ship replacement program and some "space".

BRING ON THE POS', you have no idea how excited I am. :)


To cite reference on how we've been in an Imperialist expansion mode, quoting the all powerful wikipedia :

Where I am.
Kenpachi Viktor
Perkone
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-06-15 14:14:43 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).



Please allow for alchemy to go both ways. ie. 100m3 r32 -> 10m3 r64; 10m3 r64 -> 100m3 r32

A war that would’ve involved 20,000 players, 75% of nullsec space, and hundreds of supercapitals was halted not by diplomacy, but by a game mechanic so dreadful that those who have experienced it previously have no desire to do so again. - Fix POS & SOV
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#56 - 2012-06-15 14:15:21 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:

I'm not entirely sure I trust a system of dynamic resources in a game that's so built around settling down and carving your own piece of space. I think we could do it, but my issues are 1: is moving around fun gameplay? Does a 3000 man alliance want to ferry their stuff around every few months? 2: Is there any reason to invest in space if you know you have to move? Will territorial conquests become "seasonal" if players know a resource will move shortly? 3: is territorial conquest based on a certain resource, or are there other factors in play? (like do you choose where to invade because it's possible for an alliance of your size, do you choose your enemy because you don't like them etc).


In addition, please make anyone interested in making moon minerals move around go probe out a constellation. If you want minerals to move around throw out that god-awful system.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Denidil
Cascades Mountain Operatives
#57 - 2012-06-15 14:18:34 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

...

I think there are a lot of questions to be answered and I'm not sure EVE is a game that would benefit from dynamic resources. I'd much rather invest in a system where we encourage conflict through social dynamics. Where you go to war because you dislike someone and want to e-stab them with your ship.



I think POS' first is a better idea anyways. Although the Ring Mining would really help shake things up, the POS system needs to be worked out so that when ring mining comes out, you know what to do with all the moon mineral POS' that are either obsolete, or less functional (what are you going to do with moon harvesting...)


I think you need a little bit of everything. Just like a good stew. You don't just stick some water and some salt and make something delicious!

You need some intrigue, you need some back stabbing, you need some power plays, you need some e-hatred, you need a little bit of everything. The real issue is with power blocs TODAY. Not with anything else.

The power blocs of EVE today are absorbing a lot of the wealth, and the ring mining would in theory break this down drastically and very quickly. VERY Quickly. Altough titans and supers will be there, the glue that binds them all together will start to disintegrate. I don't foresee the end of mega alliances, but I do foresee less incentive to have to "stick through with the alliance to earn my supercap", or the quick end to many of the ship replacement programs.

EVE is moving from a feudal system to a modern industrial model with ring mining, and that means more capitalistic ventures on the individual, more opportunities for the single person to go out there and make a living, which means more conflict. Rather then mega conflicts over 1 POS with 500 people. ,you're going to have 500 people who are looking to make their own way (rather than rely on ship reimbursement), and that means they will be fighting over resources on a "small" scale, but on a distributed scale.

Mega fleet fights will still exist, but we're looking at a less unhealthy plan for it. One that relies on mutual interests and social dynamics to glue people together, rather than a ship replacement program and some "space".

BRING ON THE POS', you have no idea how excited I am. :)


and if they tie sov mechanics - not just upgrade level, but who actually controls sov - to alliance activity in the system that would make it even more mutual interest and less feudeal.

that mining op? it is helping you maintain sov, those rattings? helping you maintain sov.

system with insufficient activity? the alliance looses sov and the local pirates gain sov.
system at your border where your neighbors are using it more than you? they gain sov and you loose it.

activity based sov as opposed to "plant a flag and pay some isk" based sov.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.
Monica Lesture
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#58 - 2012-06-15 14:19:03 UTC
Move tech to WHs
Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#59 - 2012-06-15 14:19:23 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Ring mining might have to move back in favor or re-doing POSs.

In the meantime, I'd really just like to alchemy every single tier of moons (like it was done with 64s).


I benefit from technetium a lot. And I deal with more POS's more than most people. That being said:

Please add Ring Mining first before redoing POS's. Give people a reason to mine (so PVPers can kill them) and give me a reason to tear down current POS's. Plus, once you redo POSs, you can then get rid of moon minerals entirely and I can tear down a LOT of tech moon towers.

Good luck with the Alchemy thing as well. Should be interesting.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#60 - 2012-06-15 14:20:35 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:

I think there are a lot of questions to be answered and I'm not sure EVE is a game that would benefit from dynamic resources. I'd much rather invest in a system where we encourage conflict through social dynamics. Where you go to war because you dislike someone and want to e-stab them with your ship.

While this is true, nothing creates the sort of social dynamics that break up powerblocs and encourage bad feelings like how to divide up valuble resources - just think PL's "for funsies" fights over prom/dyspro with the old NC that basically fomented a permanent split. There was also severe tensions in the NC over tech distribution - you can point to Goonswarm's hatred of Stella Polaris that started over a dispute over a tech moon.

You can't rely on people just hating people for no reason, you've got to ferment the hatred.

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.