Player Features and Ideas Discussion

This is an idea worth considering but I woudln't like it in plexes for this reason:

With the very small gang pvp (like of 1-3 per side) that plexing often delivers your speed is very important. Almost none of my plexing fits will work if I they are turned into a brick by numerous webs. It will be very hard to hold anyone long enough to kill them. You combine knowing your opponent is going to be webbed with some tracking disruptors or even damps and we have a whole new ballgame that is pretty far removed from pvp in the rest of eve. Some might not view that as a problem but I wouldn't like that at all.


However I do think this would work well for missions and preventing the speedtank /stealth bomber approach. I look at missions as a form of pve. I am ok with missions remaining pve - ie your supposed to warp out when pvpers come. The only time I would really pvp in my missions is when I am using them mainly as bait.

For those that replied to my post, I am sorry I didn't explain myself very well. I absolutely agree with the removal of EWAR from plexes. Re-reading it I see how I may have accross that I was advocating something different. EWAR should be removed because it is a hindrance to PvP, but that on its own won't create PvP situations either. To me it actually encourages farming. Last night a few of us were flying around for hours looking for fights in plexes but as soon as we warp in, even when outnumbered, the WT would warp to a safe and simply wait for us to leave. When we inquired why they would not fight they openly said because they were there to farm LP, not get involved on fights. That is just as frustrating as having NPC EWAR decide the outcomes of fights. Like I said it is becoming like hunting missioning SB.

I agree with the removal of EWAR, but that is only half the solution. Stopping the LP farming (read frigates speed tanking Majors) has to be high on the priority list as well.

I'm sorry to say Hans, but you are wrong on this. Ewar DOES stop people speed tanking when it is balanced and done right (i.e. Minmitar NPCs) and not wrong (Amarr NPCs). The complaints about EWar and NPCs have been because they are UNBALANCED. Amarr need more than a frig to capture a MAJOR because they cannot speed tank due to the missile spam AND TP we receive. We have to kill the rats as a result. The minmitar don't need to shoot the rats at all because they can speed tank them.

The solution CCP SHOULD implement to partially fix the FW plexing mechanics is NOT to remove Ewar. Let that stay for now. Instead they should require that ALL NPCs in a plex have to be killed before the site can be captured. This fits in with RP elements of the NPCs defending a plex AND goes some way to addressing the farming in a 10mn AB fitted frig with no weapons problem we are complaining about. This will give CCP time to view how this changes plexing and the warzone AND time to overhaul the NPCs.

The OTHER thing they need to do is fix the plex bugs that allow people to bug timers so we can't defensively plex when we have a TZ number advantage. Currently just before DT Amarr are finding alot of bugged timers when we have a chance of offensively/defensively plexing with a number advantage. This advantage goes after DT, but the timers are all reset, giving the Minmitar an unfair advantge - unbugged timers in a TZ they can run plexes and then the ability to bug said timers when the Amarr get some numbers available. We can't win under these circumstances. The response from CCP on at least 3 petitions from 3 members of my corp now is something along the lines of "We can't spawn/fix the timers etc... Hopefully DT will clean this up. And yes, the devs ARE aware of this issue...". This has been an issue since before I have been in FW - some tell me it is 4 years old...

Another change CCP needs to make is a check of what militia you belong to BEFORE a standings check occurs. Make it so that your Militia allegence overrides any standings. This fixes people bumping up their standings to avoid being shot by NPCs when farming plexes AND makes it so people who join a militia with low standings don't get shot. When I first joined FW, I didn't have much in the way of Amarr standings. I would go into a plex and my own NPCs would shoot me instead of the WT I was attempting to kill/chase out of the plex. This prevented me from HELPING the "friendly" NPCs.

Speaking of friendly NPCs shooting me, I still haven't had my petition answered as to WHY Amarr NPCs targetted me the other day when I was chasing a WT out of a defensive plex. (I've had a corp mate report the same issue.)

Comms went like this

* Corp Mate - "Har. Get down there and help the NPCs vs that WT" (me in a buffer armor cane vs a SFI with a fast tackle corp mate also in the plex
* Me - "Sorry, need to bail. The NPCs have targetted me and are shooting me. I won't be able to tank them whilst chasing the SFI around"...

I suggest CCP and everyone else read this thread

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=118626

No. We have EWAR now and we aren't getting PvP. What makes you think that by doing nothing, it will somehow change?

EWAR needs to go (and really glad it is, thanks again Hans).

From the Amarr/Minmatar side (can't/wont speak for the Cal/Gal side because I don't have enough knowledge on it), the EWAR issue is that the Minmatar EWAR is offensive, meaning it causes additional DPS on Amarr ships (being smashed with missile spam whilst being TP by 4-5 ships really hurts :p). Where are the Amarr EWAR is defensive (TD).
The problem with THAT is there is NO requirement for Minmatar to actually do anything offensive. They simply warp in, click orbit and watch local/short range scan (please stop watching short-range scan, you are costing me kills). This has been proven over and over by the kills which show some cowards getting around with no guns but a cloak on their ship.
If Amarr tried this, we would be TP and missile spammed to hell.

If you wanted EWAR to mean something, then you would need to give the Minnies a requirement to actually shoot at something. There is currently no incentive to do that, so why would they? It's been said several times, they are more than happy (and aren't the only ones, I am sure) to orbit buttons and then just warp out and cloak their Rifter until we leave.

I think we have taken 1 step forward. Unfortunately, if CCP go ahead and remove EWAR without actually fixing the problem (IE - Make us shoot all NPCs etc) then we really are just putting a band-aid on the issue. All this will do is cause Amarr to have plexing "bots" who do nothing other than orbit buttons for LP, the same as the Minmatar have now.

At the end of the day, the biggest attraction to FW (for me personally and for other I have spoken to) was the constant small-gang/solo PvP, without the BS "alarm-clock Eve" that 0.0 demands. If we can have that, I think you'll find us "lolFW PvPers" can go back to shooting each other and CCP can focus on other stuff.

Which, if you read about 5 pages up, is what everyone has already said. NO ONE wants EWAR (unless it's from an actual player). The fix has already been suggested - Remove EWAR from NPCs and make it so all NPCs need to be killed before the plex will cap. This will completely kill the speed tank AND make so that only those people who are "fit to fight" are in plexes in the first place.

Anything else is just a band-aid.

Kreiga - you raise a valid point. But that can be fixed by balancing as opposed to just removing. E.g. Only 1 jamming ship in a spawn vs 2-3 for example. Also, it is not unreasonable to have the NPC ewar such as jamming turn off if a member of the opposing militia warps into the plex.
You are never going to get pvp in a plex all the time. I think it is reasonable to expect the NPCs to put up a decent fight and use all weapons at their disposal including their racial ewar...

+1
Yes, its the missile spam that makes it impossible for the gallente. So give all the NPC races missiles and problem solved. no more 1 day old Caldari alts farming in stabbed t1 frigates.

Good first start and it will remove many afk plexing alt farmers from the area. However speed tanking major plexes in unfit frigs for sovereignty control is just as bad as it is for LP rewards. The Occupancy War will still be fought with afk plexing alts (offensive and defensive) - which is still wrong and still game breaking.

Better short term solution: Just have them kill all the rats. Stops offensive speed tanking ships from screwing up both Occupancy Warfare, and isk payouts.

Then figure out a way to stop the afk defensive plexing alts from being so efficient as well.


Edit: What you are saying, What I am saying
1. Farming - You: Kill NPCs, Me: Kill NPCs
2. Occupancy Warfare - You: Speed tanking is cool, Me: Kill NPCs
3. PvP - You: Don't have to shoot red squares, Me: Don't have to shoot red squares.

You kill rats to win occupancy, not to PvP. Nobody said you had to stay and finish the plex after a fight. Nobody said you had to run the timer before one.

Hans thanks for posting this and continuing to engage the community.

But I don't understand what you mean by "lp reward to a rat bounty and seperating it from sov control." Do you mean that we would shoot rats for lp but the sov control would be determined solely by the timer and not yield any lp?

Ergo, there are NO pvp mechanics for sov capture in FW as we don't have to DO something like online ihubs and drop SBUs and shoot structures like they do in null sov.

Orbitting a button IS a PvE activity. Attempting to stop someone doing that is a PvP activity. The person trying to PvE who responds to the person trying to PvP them is also PvPing...