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CCP; a numbers question if i may

Author
ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#1 - 2012-06-13 10:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ArmyOfMe
I've played this game for close to 8 years now, and for a big part of that time ive been a pirate, outlaw, scum of the earth( been callee a lot of things over the years). To me piracy have allways been one of the most fun professions in this game.
I have noticed over the last few years that i see less pirates in low sec then what it used to be.

What i really want to know is, do you have any stats that can confirm or deny my fears about the piracy profession going the way of the dinosaurs.

Also, id love to hear your opinion on piracy in todays eve

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#2 - 2012-06-13 11:02:28 UTC
ArmyOfMe wrote:
I've played this game for close to 8 years now, and for a big part of that time ive been a pirate, outlaw, scum of the earth( been callee a lot of things over the years). To me piracy have allways been one of the most fun professions in this game.
I have noticed over the last few years that i see less pirates in low sec then what it used to be.

What i really want to know is, do you have any stats that can confirm or deny my fears about the piracy profession going the way of the dinosaurs.

Also, id love to hear your opinion on piracy in todays eve

In my experience throughout most of Eve low sec is simply too depopulated for piracy to occur. Due to the low population care bears will mine, mission run or belt rat/do anoms only in empty systems. If you turn up, they simply move system.

I've found only two regions that are busy enough for genuinely hunting targets, and even they become pretty dull once everyone in the area gets to know you.

There's also the fact that belt ratting is terrible, anoms are useless and mag/radar sites are worthless. Leaving only exploration sites which are gated. It is possible to find a rated plex, cloak up in it and get an almost guaranteed T3 kill, but tbh that can mean sitting and waiting for hours. So I can see why it isn't attractive to many people.

The only things you'll ever catch running the other sites are noobs, you can make more isk mission running in high sec than you can doing low sec anoms or belt rats. And you can always gate camp, but you need a fleet to do that realistically. And the truly valuable stuff gets moved by jump freighter anyway.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Godfroi
Crow's Eye Logistics
#3 - 2012-06-13 11:38:38 UTC
Quote:
they become pretty dull once everyone in the area gets to know you

I'll try to confirm what Simi has said. My last corp somewhat moved on to other parts of the game/other games after fewer and fewer targets were coming through and the stretches of boredom got longer.

The best fun we had was toying with smaller and newer alliances that were trying to use low-sec as a stepping stone for null-sec; we even had some small corps move in for one purpose or another. They all eventually moved out of the area and on to the next part of their agenda. Even the random juicy freighter appeared to come around less often.

Other than large POS networks, or random dips into 0.0 for plexing, there's little incentive for non-pirate corporations/alliances to live there, or even try to clean the pirates out of the area. This leads to lots of waiting for those scarce targets, and that waiting gets longer the more successful you become.

I know there's still juicy targets and good fights to be had there; it's just those long stretches of boredom that come with it, that many pirates I've known get tired of and move on.

I too would like to hear a decent opinion on the topic.
Brother chookta
One Horse Trading
#4 - 2012-06-13 12:02:22 UTC
From the "victims" perspective, I gave up goinf to low sec when being ganked stop being fun. There was a time when there was variety, some would ransom your ship.or blow you up before you saw them coming - I was even told once to "stand and deliver" in the days before warp to gate and you could usually have a bit of banter either in local or in a private convo. Then it changed, I kept getting ganked by people who would just turn up in a blob and pod you for the hell of it and wouldn't talk to you - it got boring, so I now run haulers through low sec hoping for a gate camp to liven up the day.

Just my experience, don't know if it helps.
CraftyCroc
Fraternity Alliance Please Ignore
#5 - 2012-06-13 12:11:52 UTC
Move to molden heath - low sec piracy is booming.

Would be nice if CCP started looking after small corps rather than large alliances
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#6 - 2012-06-13 13:04:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Godfroi wrote:
Quote:
they become pretty dull once everyone in the area gets to know you

I'll try to confirm what Simi has said. My last corp somewhat moved on to other parts of the game/other games after fewer and fewer targets were coming through and the stretches of boredom got longer.

The best fun we had was toying with smaller and newer alliances that were trying to use low-sec as a stepping stone for null-sec; we even had some small corps move in for one purpose or another. They all eventually moved out of the area and on to the next part of their agenda. Even the random juicy freighter appeared to come around less often.

Yeah, that's pretty much the issue we had the first time we moved into low sec. We formed a very small alliance and started off gate camping, after ~2 months we had grown to nearly 400 members and people simply stopped coming through our system (despite it being a bottleneck out of jita high sec).

Even with multiple scouts out searching surrounding systems we found few targets after those first few months, people simply stopped running sites in the area and moved away. There is no incentive for anyone to fight for the ability to run missions, plex or rat in low sec when they can simply move to another part of low sec. Or return to high sec activities for a minimal change in payouts.

Now I'm back doing the same thing again in a three man alt corp, and already in only a few weeks people have learnt who my neutral scouts are and simply do not run sites with them in system. I actually wrote a proposal that I would like to see implemented that would combat that effect, as it is quite annoying and unavoidable bar recycling characters in order to reset your reputation.

Godfroi wrote:
Other than large POS networks, or random dips into 0.0 for plexing, there's little incentive for non-pirate corporations/alliances to live there, or even try to clean the pirates out of the area. This leads to lots of waiting for those scarce targets, and that waiting gets longer the more successful you become.

I know there's still juicy targets and good fights to be had there; it's just those long stretches of boredom that come with it, that many pirates I've known get tired of and move on.

I too would like to hear a decent opinion on the topic.

+1

The only thing really worth doing in low sec in terms of PvE is exploration, of which the only sites really worth doing are rated. Which are all gated...

It's honestly never made sense to me. The most valuable activity is the safest, when surely it should be the other way round? I'd like to see some of those exploration sites changed so that the first room is ungated. Just remove the gates, have the NPCs there on the warp in and the following rooms behind gates as normal.

Brother chookta wrote:
From the "victims" perspective, I gave up goinf to low sec when being ganked stop being fun. There was a time when there was variety, some would ransom your ship.or blow you up before you saw them coming - I was even told once to "stand and deliver" in the days before warp to gate and you could usually have a bit of banter either in local or in a private convo. Then it changed, I kept getting ganked by people who would just turn up in a blob and pod you for the hell of it and wouldn't talk to you - it got boring, so I now run haulers through low sec hoping for a gate camp to liven up the day.

Just my experience, don't know if it helps.

For what it's worth there are some of us who don't gank :) I almost always engage 1v1, even when I am in a worse ship, and have on a number of occasions let my main die despite having a falcon cloaked watching the fight.

The problem is that since so few people run sites in populated systems, because systems are so rarely populated, gate camping has become throughout most regions the most effective method of killing targets. And gate camping is designed in a way that means it is only really viable in a gang, and it also prevents ransoms as you are in a race to stop the target making it to gate.

I also ransom, and honour my ransoms. But in all honesty I really do just prefer the kill mail most of the time these days, the amount you can get from ransoms is just so pitiful I'd prefer the mail just so I can say I killed whatever it was. I do still however ransom freighters, orcas and the like (And, recently, a rorqual. Which was amusing.).

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Rudgier Thorrin
Noob Constructions LTD
#7 - 2012-06-13 14:34:12 UTC
The answer to OPs question regarding the decline of pirates is simple - too many predators killed all the prey and now they themselves die of starvation.

This is the risk/reward thing half of this forums is always talking about. Doing stuff in low-sec doesn't pay enough for people to bother with the risk. Also in every pirate/ganking thread people claim they always honor ransoms and the like - kudos if you really do, but for every one of you honorable pirates in the forums there is a dozen in game who don't give a damn. I'm not saying it's bad - this is EVE after all and we're all shady, mischievous individuals - but do it once too often to somebody and they'll find something else to do. Not to mention that some pirates are a joke - awhile ago I got caught on a gate in an empty Badger and the dude wanted 300mil to let me go. I never learned if he was honorable though...

Implying I need a signature

Cloned S0ul
POCKOCMOC Inc.
#8 - 2012-06-13 15:07:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cloned S0ul
ArmyOfMe wrote:

I have noticed over the last few years that i see less pirates in low sec then what it used to be.

What i really want to know is, do you have any stats that can confirm or deny my fears about the piracy profession going the way of the dinosaurs.




You should be happy with this fact, more space for you, more potential victims for you and your corp mates, less piracy competition, better profit, i have no idea about your personal piracy vision, more pirates in low sec = less neutrals visitors.
But maybe you realise you need more challenges, you bored of kiling industrals and ransoming pve fited people in low sec belts ? maybe you want pvp with those who pvp ? i have no idea just asking, well wardec somone, go to null space etc.

For some people low sec in enough scary it self, that why these system got less neutral visiors, here not enough potential victims for hordes of pirates, you think somone want share with own prey? i cant imagine two pirates corporation eath 30 members waiting for one prey whole day...
ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#9 - 2012-06-13 15:16:38 UTC
[quote=Rudgier Thorrin Doing stuff in low-sec doesn't pay enough for people to bother with the risk..[/quote]
I will agree with you on this point, as i agree there isnt enough incentive for ppl to go to low sec these days.
The only reason most players go to low sec atm, looks to be because of faction warfare.

IMO low sec needs more rewards to go with the risk, and players should have more reasons to fight over systems in low sec then what they have now.
CCP introduced lvl 5 agents, but lets face it, how many players really want to risk their pimp bs, or cap in low sec to kill some rats when they can make the same ammount of isk running high sec lvl 4 missions. (if you include time it takes to complete a mission as well as xx ammount of times you have to warp out due to unwanted individuals in local)

One of the things id love to see in low sec is pirate faction agents, and the ability to, just like in fw, claim a system for one of those factions. Moving some of the ores into low sec only would also help on the low sec population, and give an incentive for industrial corps to move there.

I remember when i was CEO of a pirate corp some years ago, and a industrial corp wanted to setup base in the same system as we lived in. They paid us protection money and they could do as they wanted in local and could call on us for help if they were attacked. It was a deal that worked well for both parties, as they could mine in relative safty and make isk, while we made some isk from them as well as got fights from other pirate corp that tried to kill themPirate
Sadly with the state of minerals etc these days, there just isnt any reason for industrial corps to try to move to low sec, as there just isnt anything there worth while.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#10 - 2012-06-13 15:21:47 UTC
Cloned S0ul wrote:

You should be happy with this fact, more space for you, more potential victims for you and your corp mates, less piracy competition, better profit, i have no idea about your personal piracy vision, more pirates in low sec = less neutrals visitors.
But maybe you realise you need more challenges, you bored of kiling industrals and ransoming pve fited people in low sec belts ? maybe you want pvp with those who pvp ? i have no idea just asking, well wardec somone, go to null space etc.

I actually prefer to fight those that can fight back properly, and i do enjoy fighting other pirate corps, but there are just to few of them left worth fighting these days. And some of them(not gonna mention names) are so incredible cowards that its hard to belive. (putting ships into the orcas at the first sign of trouble anyone? ) . Null sec, been there done that, tired of massive blobs, getting supercaps dropped on you at the first sign of trouble etc. High sec wars, filled with neutral RR alts that can dock and undock as they see fit.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Cloned S0ul
POCKOCMOC Inc.
#11 - 2012-06-13 15:30:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Cloned S0ul
ArmyOfMe wrote:


IMO low sec needs more rewards to go with the risk, and players should have more reasons to fight over systems in low sec then what they have now.



This is impossible because hi sec offers a lot isk, lvl 4 missions, incrusion and mining, low sec ore is crap, noone go here to mining for mid tier ore while in this case risk vs reward suck... worth a bit more isk than scordite in empire... Yes you have right "IMO low sec needs more rewards to go with the risk" but what reward ? You think i enter low sec full of pirates, in pve fited ship worth 600m-1bil isk like tengu becuse low sec offer like 50% more isk than empire ? never... In most cases people wont risk ships in low sec even it offer more money than empire.

Here is big problem with game balance, even if CCP boost isk incomes in lowsec pirates start to expolit it, or low sec become isk farm place, where people farm big isk while using cheap ships with no risk. Here is only one way to fix it, change whole pve-pvp game mechanic becuse to meny factors got impact on these game aspects.
Rico Minali
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2012-06-13 15:45:00 UTC
There is less piracy, less fighting and less warfare in lowsec today.

When Sons Of 0din lived in lowsec we were in a constant state of war with nearby entities, it was great fun. We'd go pirating, roaming and warring and it was brilliant. Then the supercapital age really began, lowsec became swamped with capitals, some corporations would literally sit with 20 to 30 capital pilots and cyo toons roaming around looking for other peoples fights, drop on them and wipe out the battlefield. After a few months of that, less fights happened, less roaming and less warfare because there was less point.
Because of this many corporations, like mine, decided that we may as well live in nullsec, if we were going to get stoppped from doing the kind of warfare we liked (and we had battles as large as many nullsec engagements) was pretty much over in lowsec, then we may as well just move to nullsec.

When I fly around lowsec these days I generally just see possitive sec people all docked up and not doing much. Lowsec used to be a fantastic place to play, now it is boring as hell with neither risk nor reward. Apart from the very occasional gatecamp by the remaining few pirates. Gone are the days of hundreds of batleships roaming into enemy territory to slug it out just because it was fun.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

WHO
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#13 - 2012-06-13 15:52:47 UTC  |  Edited by: WHO
Rudgier Thorrin wrote:
The answer to OPs question regarding the decline of pirates is simple - too many predators killed all the prey and now they themselves die of starvation.

This is the risk/reward thing half of this forums is always talking about. Doing stuff in low-sec doesn't pay enough for people to bother with the risk. Also in every pirate/ganking thread people claim they always honor ransoms and the like - kudos if you really do, but for every one of you honorable pirates in the forums there is a dozen in game who don't give a damn. I'm not saying it's bad - this is EVE after all and we're all shady, mischievous individuals - but do it once too often to somebody and they'll find something else to do. Not to mention that some pirates are a joke - awhile ago I got caught on a gate in an empty Badger and the dude wanted 300mil to let me go. I never learned if he was honorable though...


This is indeed true.

I think some times pirates just see the ships and not the hard work that goes into what others do, some of the time invested in the projects like production or mining etc can be quite a commitment and over time to much losses just hurts to much so people move away or do some thing else.

The old Mafia used to use extortion or protection rackets to keep a constant flow of money at a price that was affordable, they saw it as a business, if they just whacked every one they would run out of income, maybe some pirates whacked to many to often.

I don't see it as the pirates fault or anyone's it's more about game mechanics .

What is the answer?
Kieron VonDeux
#14 - 2012-06-13 16:33:14 UTC
I'm not sure how it is now, but back when I was doing the NullSec thing a few years back, I felt a lot more safe in NullSec than I did anywhere in LowSec. No one goes there because the risk vs reward thing is so out of wack compared to Hi and Null.
I'm talking about sitting in a system and doing stuff, not travelling between systems.


Rewards were designed where:

HiSec Low Risk
LowSec Med Risk
NullSec High Risk


Where more often the case is

HiSec Low Risk
LowSec High Risk
Null Sec Med Risk



The solution isn't trying to force players to go where they don't want to go there, but make it so players actually want to go there outside of FW.

That could be by either reducing the risk
Or by increasing the reward.

I think it may be a combination of both.
Shidhe
The Babylon5 Consortuim
#15 - 2012-06-13 18:45:00 UTC
Kieron VonDeux wrote:


That could be by either reducing the risk
Or by increasing the reward.

I think it may be a combination of both.


A reasonable solution for increasing interest and reward:
1) Stop planetary interaction in high sec. This is really obvious!!
2) Boost the value of the currently less expensive moon minerals by making more uses for them*.
3) Boost the stats of named items so that the rarer ones exceed T2, then increase the drop rate in low sec. Also make occasional T2 salvage drops.
4) Boost the value of gas occurring in low sec, by making more uses for it*.
5) Increase rewards for missions in low sec.
6) More blockade run type missions to low sec - big cargo, and rats shooting - unless you avoid them... and blockade running contracts - cue millennium falcon - link to Dust
7) Blockade enforcing missions or contracts - cue good old fashioned sieges - the fixed site promotes a good pitched battle - link to Dust
8) Unique resources associated with low sec systems - e.g. unstable star which limits colonisation, but produces interesting minerals.

* e.g. make them necessary for some items in the next lot of planetary interaction. The industrial pathways in EvE tens to be too localised, which limits trade = limits piracy. Also Dust really needs more planetary interaction to make it work. EvE badly needs a big imaginative industrial expansion - and pirates should benefit!!!


Wezn Arareb
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-06-13 19:01:40 UTC
It seems like many of the pirates have not learned that just because you can doesn't mean you should. Low sec has been over hunted and now people avoid it because there is very little chance of being left alone unless your in a bigger/ better ship or in a fleet.

The other side of things is exactly what CCP intended, let the game mechanics allow for players to make their own content. Players choosing to pirate in low sec and created the 'content' that is now there. I could be like null sec with weaker rats and no sov if the players in low sec systems want it that way. I comes back to 'Just because you can, doesnt mean you should'.

Since they do, the consequences are that there are no targets left, people avoid low sec systems. The pirates have no one to complain to, its the content they created for themselves.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#17 - 2012-06-13 19:04:48 UTC
Wezn Arareb wrote:
It seems like many of the pirates have not learned that just because you can doesn't mean you should. Low sec has been over hunted and now people avoid it because there is very little chance of being left alone unless your in a bigger/ better ship or in a fleet.

The other side of things is exactly what CCP intended, let the game mechanics allow for players to make their own content. Players choosing to pirate in low sec and created the 'content' that is now there. I could be like null sec with weaker rats and no sov if the players in low sec systems want it that way. I comes back to 'Just because you can, doesnt mean you should'.

Since they do, the consequences are that there are no targets left, people avoid low sec systems. The pirates have no one to complain to, its the content they created for themselves.

You see, the trick is to actually have some experience on a subject when commenting on it.

Some interesting comments from posters above you though, will reply when I am at home and not on my phone.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Wezn Arareb
Doomheim
#18 - 2012-06-13 19:45:00 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:

You see, the trick is to actually have some experience on a subject when commenting on it.

Some interesting comments from posters above you though, will reply when I am at home and not on my phone.


What makes you think I have no experience on this subject? We both agree that lowsec is underpopulated. I am just offering another plausible reason as to why. This doe's not invalidate the reasons you stated above. I think it would support your reasons why lowsec is underpopulated.

The pirates in many lowsec systems shoot any almost everything that comes through, this makes people NOT want to go there unless they are looking for a fight. Thats all well and good, but as you said before, its not reasonable to try and make a living in lowsec due to the risk / reward ratio being more out of balance than null sec.

P.S. I have been playing for almost 5 years. And of course this an alt just for forum posting... The forums are almost as dangerous as lowsec.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#19 - 2012-06-13 19:48:41 UTC
Wezn Arareb wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:

You see, the trick is to actually have some experience on a subject when commenting on it.

Some interesting comments from posters above you though, will reply when I am at home and not on my phone.


What makes you think I have no experience on this subject? We both agree that lowsec is underpopulated. I am just offering another plausible reason as to why. This doe's not invalidate the reasons you stated above. I think it would support your reasons why lowsec is underpopulated.

The pirates in many lowsec systems shoot any almost everything that comes through, this makes people NOT want to go there unless they are looking for a fight. Thats all well and good, but as you said before, its not reasonable to try and make a living in lowsec due to the risk / reward ratio being more out of balance than null sec.

P.S. I have been playing for almost 5 years. And of course this an alt just for forum posting... The forums are almost as dangerous as lowsec.

Bah, forum danger is a myth.

And if you read my posts you'll notice that I point out how trivial it is to avoid combat there, as well as how the highest earning low sec professions are nearly risk-free. I believe it was in this thread that I also posted my views on the rationale behind buffing low sec versus nerfing high sec.

Although that last point may have been in a different thread, if so I'll copy pasta later.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Wezn Arareb
Doomheim
#20 - 2012-06-13 19:55:25 UTC
Its true that avoiding combat is relatively easy anywhere. I don't remember seeing what you have said about the earning potential vs risk in this thread, so it may have been another one. I am interested in what you did say about it though.
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