These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Cloaky Logi - Black Ops / Cov Ops / Force Recon meets Logistics

Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Powers Sa
#1 - 2012-06-13 07:25:43 UTC
Recently on Twitter I have been calling for logistics ships that can 1.) Warp cloaked 2.) go through Covert Ops Jump portal generators. We have the falcon now for ECM support, and without a full logi role ship, we have to rely heavily on the falcon to protect a cloaky gang. I understand this adds to the fragility of said fleet composition. Recently CCP introduced the Etana. Obviously it is an Alliance tournament one off, but it has a lot of great things that I think CCP could consider and maybe scale back for general use.
For those who don't know, here are the Etana Bonuses:
Quote:

Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 155% bonus to Shield Transport and Energy Transfer Array range and 20% bonus to Shield Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level
Logistics Skill Bonus: 17% reduction in Shield Transport and Energy Transfer Array capacitor use per level
Role bonus: 40% reduction in the amount of heat damage absorbed by modules, in CPU need for Shield Transporters, and in power need for Energy Transfer Arrays
99% reduction in CPU need for cloaking devices, the Etana can be bridged by a Black Ops ship.


I would recommend for a Caldari *practical* general purpose cloaky logi ship go this route with the bonuses:
Caldari Cruiser Skill Bonus: 150% bonus to Shield Transport and Energy Transfer Array range
*remove drone bonus*
Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Shield Transport and Energy Transfer Array capacitor use per level
Role bonus: 99% reduction in CPU need for cloaking devices, the XXXXXXX can be bridged by a Black Ops ship.
-40% CPUneed for Shield Transporters and -50% power need for Energy Transfer Arrays(this needs work)
My Changes above are bolded. I don't know how to balance the CPU needs for the shield transporters. That is a CCP thing really. These are more in line with a basilisk.

Minmatar version would be as follows:
Minmatar Cruiser Skill Bonus: 150% bonus to Tracking Link and Shield Transport range per level
*remove drone bonus*
Logistics Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Tracking Link efficiency per level
15% reduction in Shield Transport capacitor use per level
Role bonus: 99% reduction in CPU need for cloaking devices, the XXXXXXX can be bridged by a Black Ops ship.
-40% CPU need for Shield Transporters
These are similar role bonuses to the scimitar. Major changes are the shield transporter CPU bonus reductions. Again that is something I'd want CCP to look at.

Gallente Cloaky Logi:
Gallente Cruiser Skil Bonus: 150% bonus to Remote Armor Repair System and Tracking Link range per level
*removing drone bonus*
Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use
15% reduction in Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use
10% bonus to Tracking Link efficiency per level
Role bonus: 99% reduction in CPU need for cloaking devices, the XXXXXXX can be bridged by a Black Ops ship.
-60% power need for Remote Armor Repair Systems

Cloaky Guardian (so you can leave the paint black~)
Amarr Cruiser Skill Bonus: 150% bonus to Energy Transfer Array and Remote Armor Repair System range per level
20% bonus to Armor Maintenance Bot transfer amount per level
Logistics Skill Bonus: 15% reduction in Energy Transfer Array capacitor use per level
15% reduction in Remote Armor Repair System capacitor use per level
Role bonus: 99% reduction in CPU need for cloaking devices, the XXXXXXX can be bridged by a Black Ops ship.
-60% power need for Remote Armor Repair Systems

This is just something to consider. I think it would give people an excuse to avoid neutral reps in highsec, but that is just a pipe dream.

I would love balancing discussions, and alternative suggestions. Mods, please weed out any stupid off-topic tailspins.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Forums Terrorist
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-06-13 07:52:41 UTC
I like this, but this would really only work if Black Ops Battleships were good for something beyond bridging bombers and recons onto idiots who think that that brick-tanked Ferox isn't bait.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#3 - 2012-06-13 09:44:41 UTC
Forums Terrorist wrote:
I like this, but this would really only work if Black Ops Battleships were good for something beyond bridging bombers and recons onto idiots who think that that brick-tanked Ferox isn't bait.

If the BLOPS gang was a viable PVP gang and not merely a surprise gank squad, this would stop being true.

Powers' change is one very good step towards this, so would having the ability to jump a ship with an interdiction sphere launcher/WDG through the portal.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Powers Sa
#4 - 2012-06-13 11:14:50 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Forums Terrorist wrote:
I like this, but this would really only work if Black Ops Battleships were good for something beyond bridging bombers and recons onto idiots who think that that brick-tanked Ferox isn't bait.

If the BLOPS gang was a viable PVP gang and not merely a surprise gank squad, this would stop being true.

Powers' change is one very good step towards this, so would having the ability to jump a ship with an interdiction sphere launcher/WDG through the portal.

That was my other ship that I wanted, but CCP didn't make something close to it like they did for the cloaky logi in the Alliance Tournament prizes. It has kind of been a pet dream of mine that I bump once a month and hope it never dies.

The Cloaky logi lets you engage bigger/harder targets for a little longer. You'll probably lose a few small tackle things, but people will be more willing to commit blops BS and more expensive things if they think the logi will keep them up for 10 more seconds to kill whatever it was they are shooting at.

A fellow cloakyjerk friend mentioned gimped cloaky heavy dictors and dictors. Basically make the things more fragile, but able to fill their roles with Cov Ops cloaks. The difficulty CCP will have is determining how fragile is too fragile or fragile enough.

People have been cloaking dictors/heavy dictors forever, but they can't covert bridge them or warp cloaked, and that is something we'd like to see. It will make nullsec much crazier. It will make lowsec much spookier (logi in cov hotdrops).

Hotdrop O'Clock is fun with titans and stuff, but what about our small gang hotdrops (We do them a lot believe it or not).

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#5 - 2012-06-13 15:41:35 UTC  |  Edited by: mxzf
I've got a counterproposal. Simply give the T3 RR subsystems a 20-40% range bonus. This would give them 12-18km range and let them actually be usable as RR without stepping on the Logis' toes. At which point you can have a nice RR T3 along with your gang for logi support.

Something like this gives 75% of the reps of a Logi and can go through a BlOps bridge (the only downside is the transporter range).
[Tengu, Cloaky RR]
Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

For anyone that's curious, it has 82-93% resists and 77k EHP (59k EHP vs the lowest resist, EM) and is cap-stable with everything running (48% with all 5s).
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#6 - 2012-06-13 16:22:08 UTC
mxzf wrote:
I've got a counterproposal. Simply give the T3 RR subsystems a 20-40% range bonus. This would give them 12-18km range and let them actually be usable as RR without stepping on the Logis' toes. At which point you can have a nice RR T3 along with your gang for logi support.

Something like this gives 75% of the reps of a Logi and can go through a BlOps bridge (the only downside is the transporter range).
[Tengu, Cloaky RR]
Damage Control II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II
Capacitor Power Relay II

10MN Afterburner II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Large Shield Extender II

Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Rage Heavy Missile

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Core Defense Field Extender I
Medium Polycarbon Engine Housing I

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Electronics - CPU Efficiency Gate
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Tengu Propulsion - Intercalated Nanofibers

For anyone that's curious, it has 82-93% resists and 77k EHP (59k EHP vs the lowest resist, EM) and is cap-stable with everything running (48% with all 5s).


Quoted becuase, IMO, this is why T3's have a logi subsystem.

The cloaky logi ship you suggested is way to potent IMO. It needs some major drawbacks if you're going to give it a covert cloak. Mainly, it should be range limited (I think under 20 km's), and it should not rep nearly as well as their logistics counterparts!!!

Essentially, the cloaky T3 mxzf suggested fits the bill perfectly... just ask for a reasonable boost to your RR range, and then CCP doesn't have to design an entire new class of ships!!!
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#7 - 2012-06-13 17:12:13 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
mxzf wrote:
I've got a counterproposal. Simply give the T3 RR subsystems a 20-40% range bonus. This would give them 12-18km range and let them actually be usable as RR without stepping on the Logis' toes. At which point you can have a nice RR T3 along with your gang for logi support.

Something like this gives 75% of the reps of a Logi and can go through a BlOps bridge (the only downside is the transporter range).

For anyone that's curious, it has 82-93% resists and 77k EHP (59k EHP vs the lowest resist, EM) and is cap-stable with everything running (48% with all 5s).


Quoted becuase, IMO, this is why T3's have a logi subsystem.

The cloaky logi ship you suggested is way to potent IMO. It needs some major drawbacks if you're going to give it a covert cloak. Mainly, it should be range limited (I think under 20 km's), and it should not rep nearly as well as their logistics counterparts!!!

Essentially, the cloaky T3 mxzf suggested fits the bill perfectly... just ask for a reasonable boost to your RR range, and then CCP doesn't have to design an entire new class of ships!!!



Ugh, please not more T3 buffs. The last thing they need is another role to obsolete for every other ship.

EVE isn't meant to be T3 cruisers online. FYI DNS was working on a similar setup using Legions so, it isn't a new idea by any means, but it had ...questionable effectiveness. The isk efficiency plummets if you loose just a single BO ship so.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#8 - 2012-06-13 17:38:57 UTC
PinkKnife wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
mxzf wrote:
I've got a counterproposal. Simply give the T3 RR subsystems a 20-40% range bonus. This would give them 12-18km range and let them actually be usable as RR without stepping on the Logis' toes. At which point you can have a nice RR T3 along with your gang for logi support.

Something like this gives 75% of the reps of a Logi and can go through a BlOps bridge (the only downside is the transporter range).

For anyone that's curious, it has 82-93% resists and 77k EHP (59k EHP vs the lowest resist, EM) and is cap-stable with everything running (48% with all 5s).


Quoted becuase, IMO, this is why T3's have a logi subsystem.

The cloaky logi ship you suggested is way to potent IMO. It needs some major drawbacks if you're going to give it a covert cloak. Mainly, it should be range limited (I think under 20 km's), and it should not rep nearly as well as their logistics counterparts!!!

Essentially, the cloaky T3 mxzf suggested fits the bill perfectly... just ask for a reasonable boost to your RR range, and then CCP doesn't have to design an entire new class of ships!!!



Ugh, please not more T3 buffs. The last thing they need is another role to obsolete for every other ship.

EVE isn't meant to be T3 cruisers online. FYI DNS was working on a similar setup using Legions so, it isn't a new idea by any means, but it had ...questionable effectiveness. The isk efficiency plummets if you loose just a single BO ship so.


I do not like nor want OP t3's...

That being said, the logistics configured t3 is not very prevalant, as an 8-9km rep range is very ineffective (although not that unreasonable for a hotdrop). IMO, increasing it to 16-18 km's is not some over the top boost that makes them OP...

If someone suggested increasing the range beyond that... I'd be very much against it!!!!
Powers Sa
#9 - 2012-06-13 21:11:28 UTC
We run ninja gangs a lot, and we largely leave the T3 strategic cruisers at home, because of the cost and skill requirements. We have a lot of guys who train logi V and recon V, but don't bother training into a strategic cruiser. A 750mil Logi that takes away skillpoints when you die isn't as appealing as say a 400mil logi that cloaks.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#10 - 2012-06-13 22:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Powers Sa wrote:
We run ninja gangs a lot, and we largely leave the T3 strategic cruisers at home, because of the cost and skill requirements. We have a lot of guys who train logi V and recon V, but don't bother training into a strategic cruiser. A 750mil Logi that takes away skillpoints when you die isn't as appealing as say a 400mil logi that cloaks.


In other words, the ship you want already exists, but you don't want to use it because you're afraid to lose it. Instead, you want a cheaper ship, with the same bonus as a logi AND the ability to fit a covert cloak... oh... and none of the drawbacks!!!!!

Lets look at the difference between the basi bonuses, and you ship:

Basi:
150% bonus to RR range per level
20% bonus to rep drones per level
-15% cap need fo RST's and RET's per level

-50 % CPU needs for RSTs
-40% PG Needs for RET's

Your new covert logistics ship:

150% bonus to RR range per level
20% bonus to rep drones per level
-15% cap need fo RST's and RET's per level

-40% CPU needs for RSTs
-40% PG Needs for RET's

If you continue to use the etana as your base setup, you also gain an extra midslot and an extra lowslot over the basi, too...

Do you really think only removing one of your reps or transfers for a covert ability is at all balanced?? Actually, I think I want a covert curse, or rook, or lachesis, or huginn. CCP should just use the same stats as the combat recon models, and just make the ships use one highslot if they wish to fit a covert cloak. We could do the same for HACs and AFs, too... because really, covert is just kewl, and the ability to fit a covert cloak shouldn't be coupled with any drawbacks...

Get real.... The only way you'll get a covert logistics ship, is if it's a fairly gimped version of the non-covert ship!!! The most appropriate gimping, IMO, it should have a gimped rep range... If you're covert logi has a rep range greater than 20 km's, its probably overpowered!!

P.S. Don't base your stats the OP specs of a tourney prize ship. Tourney prizes are purposely and acceptably OP becuase they are one of a kind, limited production, unique items....
Powers Sa
#11 - 2012-06-14 00:34:55 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

In other words, the ship you want already exists, but you don't want to use it because you're afraid to lose it. Instead, you want a cheaper ship, with the same bonus as a logi AND the ability to fit a covert cloak... oh... and none of the drawbacks!!!!!

Lets look at the difference between the basi bonuses, and you ship:

Basi:
150% bonus to RR range per level
20% bonus to rep drones per level
-15% cap need fo RST's and RET's per level

-50 % CPU needs for RSTs
-40% PG Needs for RET's

Your new covert logistics ship:

150% bonus to RR range per level
20% bonus to rep drones per level
-15% cap need fo RST's and RET's per level

-40% CPU needs for RSTs
-40% PG Needs for RET's

If you continue to use the etana as your base setup, you also gain an extra midslot and an extra lowslot over the basi, too...

Do you really think only removing one of your reps or transfers for a covert ability is at all balanced?? Actually, I think I want a covert curse, or rook, or lachesis, or huginn. CCP should just use the same stats as the combat recon models, and just make the ships use one highslot if they wish to fit a covert cloak. We could do the same for HACs and AFs, too... because really, covert is just kewl, and the ability to fit a covert cloak shouldn't be coupled with any drawbacks...

Get real.... The only way you'll get a covert logistics ship, is if it's a fairly gimped version of the non-covert ship!!! The most appropriate gimping, IMO, it should have a gimped rep range... If you're covert logi has a rep range greater than 20 km's, its probably overpowered!!

P.S. Don't base your stats the OP specs of a tourney prize ship. Tourney prizes are purposely and acceptably OP becuase they are one of a kind, limited production, unique items....

That's like saying an ECM Tengu is actually worth a hoot, when it clearly isn't. The subsystem doesn't give jamming strength, just range, that's terrible too, but that's a whole different can of worms.

"covert curse, or rook, or lachesis, or huginn"
Pilgrim, Falcon, Arazu, Rapier. Come on, these are all force recon ships, they warp cloaked. Their bonuses are very similar to their recon counterparts. It's not too much to ask for a Force Logi or something like that.

Again, I am open to tweaks on the bonuses, because I really didn't have an overarching plan for those. I don't care about the slots. Saying the T3 Strategic Cruisers can adequately fill the role just proves how little you fly these ships in this role. They are terribly bad at these roals. If I have to fly a ****** 750mil osprey (yes a t1 logi comparison), then I'll just leave the tengu docked and fly a falcon. It nullifies dps and fills an intended role. A logi tengu is like those car boats that they build in cuba to cross the 90miles of sea to get to Florida.

I am not basing it purely on the Tourney prize ships completely. I removed the big things that are awesome about the tourney prize ships: The heat bonus and the percentage gains over regular logi.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#12 - 2012-06-14 02:49:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Powers Sa wrote:


"covert curse, or rook, or lachesis, or huginn"
Pilgrim, Falcon, Arazu, Rapier. Come on, these are all force recon ships, they warp cloaked. Their bonuses are very similar to their recon counterparts. It's not too much to ask for a Force Logi or something like that.

Again, I am open to tweaks on the bonuses, because I really didn't have an overarching plan for those. I don't care about the slots. Saying the T3 Strategic Cruisers can adequately fill the role just proves how little you fly these ships in this role. They are terribly bad at these roals. If I have to fly a ****** 750mil osprey (yes a t1 logi comparison), then I'll just leave the tengu docked and fly a falcon. It nullifies dps and fills an intended role. A logi tengu is like those car boats that they build in cuba to cross the 90miles of sea to get to Florida.

I am not basing it purely on the Tourney prize ships completely. I removed the big things that are awesome about the tourney prize ships: The heat bonus and the percentage gains over regular logi.


In comparing combat recons and force recons: Each force recon not only loses the secondary combat recon bonuses in exchange for the ability to fit a covert cloak, but, force recons have one less highslot than their combat counterparts. Not to mention, they must use another high-slot to fit a covert cloak. BTW, force recons have lower resists and lower HP.

I don't think removing the drone bonus is an adequate "sacrifice" for gaining a covert operation. The only legitimate balance I see is to nerf their operational range. Otherwise people will operate these logistics ships like falcons, warp in at range, decloak and rep. Unlike Falcon's however, they are tankable, and an opponent will need more than just a drake to scare them off!!

Finally, I really think a t3 already already fits this role almost perfectly. It only needs a moderate increase in it's rep range (6 km's is very hard to work with... but boost it up to 15-20ish km's, and you'll be good to go!)

While you could make this cap stable, for most hotdrops you don't need to. This reps as much as a scimitar, has twice the EHP, much better Resistances, and can warp through bubbles.

[Tengu, Covert Repper]

Damage Control II
Co-Processor II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II

Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Medium Electrochemical Capacitor Booster I, Navy Cap Booster 800
Large Shield Extender II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II
Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I

Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Medium S95a Partial Shield Transporter
Expanded Probe Launcher II, Sisters Combat Scanner Probe
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II

Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I
Medium Anti-Explosive Screen Reinforcer II
Medium Auxiliary Thrusters I

Tengu Defensive - Adaptive Shielding
Tengu Electronics - Emergent Locus Analyzer
Tengu Engineering - Capacitor Regeneration Matrix
Tengu Offensive - Covert Reconfiguration
Tengu Propulsion - Interdiction Nullifier
Powers Sa
#13 - 2012-06-14 03:12:16 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Powers Sa wrote:


"covert curse, or rook, or lachesis, or huginn"
Pilgrim, Falcon, Arazu, Rapier. Come on, these are all force recon ships, they warp cloaked. Their bonuses are very similar to their recon counterparts. It's not too much to ask for a Force Logi or something like that.

Again, I am open to tweaks on the bonuses, because I really didn't have an overarching plan for those. I don't care about the slots. Saying the T3 Strategic Cruisers can adequately fill the role just proves how little you fly these ships in this role. They are terribly bad at these roals. If I have to fly a ****** 750mil osprey (yes a t1 logi comparison), then I'll just leave the tengu docked and fly a falcon. It nullifies dps and fills an intended role. A logi tengu is like those car boats that they build in cuba to cross the 90miles of sea to get to Florida.

I am not basing it purely on the Tourney prize ships completely. I removed the big things that are awesome about the tourney prize ships: The heat bonus and the percentage gains over regular logi.


In comparing combat recons and force recons: Each force recon not only loses the secondary combat recon bonuses in exchange for the ability to fit a covert cloak, but, force recons have one less highslot than their combat counterparts. Not to mention, they must use another high-slot to fit a covert cloak. BTW, force recons have lower resists and lower HP.

I don't think removing the drone bonus is an adequate "sacrifice" for gaining a covert operation. The only legitimate balance I see is to nerf their operational range. Otherwise people will operate these logistics ships like falcons, warp in at range, decloak and rep. Unlike Falcon's however, they are tankable, and an opponent will need more than just a drake to scare them off!!

Finally, I really think a t3 already already fits this role almost perfectly. It only needs a moderate increase in it's rep range (6 km's is very hard to work with... but boost it up to 15-20ish km's, and you'll be good to go!)


Killing the range is absolutely fine. I hotdrop on people's heads and murder them. Hotdropping on a gang would still put me in their face, so I'm fine with lowering ehp and resist. A T3 is tanky, and unless you buff the logistics capabilities, its not worth it. We already cloak scimitars for gate camps, but that's just boring. I hotdrop a falcon, burn away and jam.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#14 - 2012-06-14 03:19:16 UTC
Buy a titan, bridge scimitars. Problem solved.

Essentially what you are saying is that you cannot afford a titan, do not want to risk T3s and so would like a cheaper way to gank people. Let me think...

...nah

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Powers Sa
#15 - 2012-06-14 06:14:38 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
Buy a titan, bridge scimitars. Problem solved.

Essentially what you are saying is that you cannot afford a titan, do not want to risk T3s and so would like a cheaper way to gank people. Let me think...

...nah

I would like to use black ops battleships to blops drop on people with a more rounded fleet comp. We already drop 20 dudes out of them all the time. The topgoon torpedo bomber gimmick has been around for a while. I'm just asking for one more thing to send through the goon cannon.

Titans are an 80bil isk waste to send support scimitars with our Black ops gang onto morons who are engaging cyno bait.

We have a lot of titans.

Do you like winning t2 frigs and dictors for Dirt Cheap?https://eveninggames.net/register/ref/dQddmNgyLhFBqNJk

Remeber: Gambling addiction is no laughing matter unless you've lost a vast space fortune on the internet.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#16 - 2012-07-11 09:18:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
PinkKnife wrote:
EVE isn't meant to be T3 cruisers online. FYI DNS was working on a similar setup using Legions so, it isn't a new idea by any means, but it had ...questionable effectiveness. The isk efficiency plummets if you loose just a single BO ship so.

This is why saying "but it already works!" is not the position to take, here.

Logistics is meant to be a force multiplier, to allow smaller numbers to engage larger numbers, as well as acting to prevent losses (increase efficiency) and introduce new tactical options.

700mil logi ships that can't sit at a safe range, can't cap chain, can't rep as much and losing one might stop you reshipping into the same fit (skill loss) does none of these things. It means you will bring way more than you need and it turns fights that "need logi" from being a tactical skirmish into a gank, by the numbers you need to bring to keep your 700mil ~obvious primary~ along.

I agree, completely, with the position that T3 cruisers should trade viability in a specific role for flexibility, but they already fail to meet these balance requirements in their other roles so crippling them here seems to make no logical sense. They're also not being the "T3 configuration" of a T2 cruiser, because the cloaky T2 logi does not exist.

A better solution is a cloaky T2 logi, IMO. Like other cloaky versions of the T2 cruisers it should trade strength of it's bonus and survivability for it's cloak.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

mxzf
Shovel Bros
#17 - 2012-07-11 12:49:37 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
700mil logi ships that can't sit at a safe range, can't cap chain, can't rep as much and losing one might stop you reshipping into the same fit (skill loss) does none of these things. It means you will bring way more than you need and it turns fights that "need logi" from being a tactical skirmish into a gank, by the numbers you need to bring to keep your 700mil ~obvious primary~ along.


When your "obvious primary" has 77k EHP and can tank 1872 DPS with a second logi on the field, it's a much less of a risk than you might think.

The point remains that T3s already fill this role, they just need to be tweaked a bit (+20-40% range/level) and they will be extremely viable. This is Eve, where price isn't a balancing factor. If you can't afford to field a covert logi, don't. But don't ask for another ship just because you're not satisfied with the current one. You might as well be asking for a Titan that's only 10B because you feel that the current ones are too expensive.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#18 - 2012-07-11 13:13:10 UTC
You completely missed the points raised. The T3 hull is designed to be able to perform the roles the T2 hulls do, but with less effectiveness. There is no T2 cloaky logi, it is an anomaly.

You can give the T3 hull the range bonus, which it needs to be viable, (your EHP and resists mean little if you're in risk of webs and (even) unbonused neuts) but you would then just be adding to the T3 powercreep.

There's no need to make T3 the answer to every specialized role, like it is for most - there should be a benefit for getting those high-ranking T2 cruiser specialty skills to 5.

It's not just about cost, but my point remains; if you make a viable gang have a minimum price of 1.5+billion ISK then you will be limiting targets or ensuring engagements are ganks.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,