Warfare & Tactics

Thanks for the summary

If you consider that to be a list of flaws then I am A OK with my "arguments."

Anyway...boost the rifter speed so that it has the same speed advantage over other T1 frigs pre-rebalance, or nerf the merlin's speed back to what it was before. Rifter goes back to being good at versatility/kiting, merlin still dominates in its role with the huge dps and tank advantage, incursus remains annoying loling at barrage dps.

Topic is talked to death, I'm moving on.

Toodles.

Meta 4 scram and T2 scram have the exact same range, so this makes approximately ****-all sense. Actually, it makes less than ****-all sense, because you can overheat the meta4 for longer than the T2.

It's also cheaper.

So, meta4 scrams:
-Same range as T2
-Lasts longer heated (effectively giving it more range for more time) than T2
-Easier to fit than T2
-Cheaper than T2


No frigate pilot with half a brain is fitting T2 scrams... OR webs, for that matter - although the Meta 4s and the T2s for webs are more comparably priced, whereas buying a T2 scram is just throwing a few hundred thousand isk away for an inferior module.

Oh, lower cap cost on the meta 4s, too.

I'm forced to conclude that you don't know what you're talking about.

So is the rifter getting "shafted" by just the Merlin, or the Incursus and Punisher too?

Without going through extensive analysis it seems to me that it's game over once the rifter gets neuts on the other two.

Caldari > Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr > Caldari.. etc...

You are right, I misread the distance. Also on the T2 web, same deal as T2 scram; just forgot about price changes. However I doubt prices will remain the way they are, so snap up the meta4s while you can.

Once again, it still isn't enough. The point isn't about how the rifter should avoid the merlin and incursus, the point is that the rifter has been "shafted" by not being good at a particular role. Brawling ships with brawling fits should not kill a nimble kiter 9/10 times should they? Like I said, simple fix, change the base speeds to how they were pre-buff.

No one is saying rifter should be king, but it should have a purpose. What is it? Merlin and Incursus now do everything better than the rifter. It will also lose to a tristan and tormentor (good DPS out to 10km), so what else is there to fight? Kestrel? Burst? Executioner? Sweet...find people flying those.

The merlin and incursus can simply switch ammo to be a real brawler (void), and switch again to be a "kiter" (that kills a kiting rifter) with null. The rifter cannot do this. Instead of balancing by bringing the incursus and merlin to the level of the rifter, they pushed them above.

And yes, you can orbit at 500 under the punishers guns pretty easily.

Winmatar should win because of Winmatar.
Sorry, but it sounds alot like youre saying:

Give me one good reason that Kiting ships should be 'I-Win' buttons that should have the right to defecate all over brawling ships. If anything it should be the other way around, as a reward to brawlers for having the balls to commit their ship to a fight, as opposed to 'Oh Dear! I may loose this one! I best run away, lest i break a Nail!'


Tristan is pretty much pre-nerf Merlin, yes it can kill a Rifter, with about 3x as many SPs as the rifter pilot.


If only there was some sort of ammo for projectiles, that increased their range in much the same way that Null increases blaster Range

Wait, some people didn't crosstrain all frigates in anticipation for the AF buff?

From something of an outsider perspective, it's interesting to see all this discussion focused on 1v1 scenarios. It's far from an invalid stance, and in fact may be common in modern post-Inferno FW world (that seems to be the engagement scenario this board focuses on most these days). I started out learning with larger 0.0 fleet combat and smaller 0.0 roams, with the odd very small bit of homeland defense work on the side. Since then, I've had a chance to see low sec war, high sec war, and a lot of smaller action stuff, but coming to this after having seen the others, I have slightly different priorities for fitting. I figure I can at least do my best to share this perspective, so people can consider a different angle

Rifters are great, and we encourage our new players to train them, and fly them, and hand them out for free. This is fairly well known. I've personally assembled a few hundred Rifters (I have nothing on the king of space likes, Lyris Nairn). My first experience with significant combat beyond a few basic training missions and the odd newbie training exercise was flying a Rifter in the defense of DKUK about a year ago. I flew around, went after a bunch of Interdictors, and died horribly when a Claw decided he'd had enough of my shenanigans. It was chaotic and fun. Later, I actually proved useful by getting a warp-in on a sniper gang in a different fight on some undock, and continued to provide a warping when I was webbed, scrammed, and popped. Somewhere around this time, I moved to flying Stabbers.

Our Rifter fitting is designed to be produced or purchased en masse for pennies, to lock down a target, to move quickly to get that tackle, and to have a salvager so newbies can make money on something besides the insurance from death. The fit is a deathtrap - it's got little EHP, can't really receive reps, and doesn't do great damage. However, a heroic tackle will get a new player a nice killmail, and a showering of ISK:

3x 200mm AC I
1x Salvager I

1x MWD I
1x Scram
1x Web

1x Cap Power Relay
2x Nanos

1x Reload of ammo in the cargo

Given the priorities listed above, the rifter really is the best choice - it can fit a scram, web, and MWD, it gets 2 nanos and a cap mod to help people with lower skills run it longer, and it has capless weapons that do decent damage if you need to orbit your target at further than point-blank range (staying outside of smart bomb range is critical to frigate/destroyer gangs)

Hopefully this adds some perspective to why other people love Rifters so much.

Exactly.

This is why I'm very happy with the direction of the rebalance, each t1 frig is now an equally viable option.

They work for goons or test because you get a lot of new players and can use them in masses. I don't know, I never liked that fit at all, even for newbies because it doesn't teach a terrible lot of anything other than 'I'm going for point I hope I don't die oh I died'.

I know the rifter is kinda symbolic for goons so that's fair enough. Plus it leads on to welpcanes then maelstroms so it makes sense to get those ships trained on an alliance level. You can technically do a better job with a merlin (waay more hitpoints) or incursus (better slot layout and good hp just from a damage control). The rifter might not be the best fit anymore for alliances that don't train so heavily into minmatar.