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Crimes for Unposted Policies?

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Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#181 - 2012-06-13 11:25:59 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
We are always working on that. However, we are asking our community to act as a good community. We understand that it is a relatively small group that exhibits this behavior, but if you are targeting rookies specifically you need to stop it. Now, if a rookie wanders into low sec, by all means, blow them up. But do not specifically seek out rookies for a kill, scam, gank, etc. We will be extending these rules if that behavior does not cease. Note that these rules only apply to rookies. If you want to gank a hulk miner or a missioner flying a faction fit Rattlesnake in those areas, by all means.


EDIT: Misread post, the quote above makes it explicitly clear that it is legal to can-flip, ninja, gank, etc all blatantly non-rookie pilots, even if they're in rookie systems.

With that said, can it be noted on the Rookie system wiki page that non-rookies are legal targets?


After double checking the rookie systems wiki page, there is obvious conflict between your statement and the red warning at the bottom of the page. If it is indeed legal to can-flip, gank, and ninja non-rookies in these systems, then this page really needs to be updated to reflect the actual rules. Otherwise, this page basically says that all players of eve are completely safe in the listed systems.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#182 - 2012-06-13 11:26:20 UTC
Grinder2210 wrote:


Well i dont like it but

Ty for anwsering



Good lord, please learn to quote properly. Also are you really complaining because you aren't allowed to grief rookies? Are you really that crap at EVE that you consider them targets?

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Luis Graca
#183 - 2012-06-13 11:26:45 UTC
Just an idea if CCP doesn't want to new die like that with just not make it impossible to lock someone that on a trial accounts AND that didn't engage anyone?

Ex: if someone try to can flip a newb the newb will just get is stuff and leave without any consequence, if the newb is no longer in trial or if he had already engage someone then he will simply lose it's immunity and be like any other player and can be shooted
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#184 - 2012-06-13 11:28:06 UTC
Luis Graca wrote:
Just an idea if CCP doesn't want to new die like that with just not make it impossible to lock someone that on a trial accounts AND that didn't engage anyone?

Ex: if someone try to can flip a newb the newb will just get is stuff and leave without any consequence, if the newb is no longer in trial or if he had already engage someone then he will simply lose it's immunity and be like any other player and can be shooted



First step to a pvp flag. Bad idea.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#185 - 2012-06-13 11:29:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I don't think it's so much that Hek or any of the other systems are going to be re-classed as rookie systems, but that the rules set up for rookie systems will also ensure the safety of rookies who are sent to non-rookie systems as part of their NPE.
Yeah, see, that's still not the same thing, and that's where the entire problem lies:

The rookie system rule does not just ensure the safety of rookies — it ensures the safety of everyone. That's why reclassification of systems is a bad idea. It's also why referring to that rule outside of the actual rookie systems is a bad idea: because if we're just talking about the “don't mess with rookies” policy, then it's not the rookie system rule. Finally, having two separate rules is also a bad idea because then it comes down the rules-lawyering about when someone is considered a rookie and not — that differentiation will suddenly make all the difference in these not-actually-rookie-systems.


Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#186 - 2012-06-13 11:30:45 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Adriel Malakai wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
We are always working on that. However, we are asking our community to act as a good community. We understand that it is a relatively small group that exhibits this behavior, but if you are targeting rookies specifically you need to stop it. Now, if a rookie wanders into low sec, by all means, blow them up. But do not specifically seek out rookies for a kill, scam, gank, etc. We will be extending these rules if that behavior does not cease. Note that these rules only apply to rookies. If you want to gank a hulk miner or a missioner flying a faction fit Rattlesnake in those areas, by all means.


EDIT: Misread post, the quote above makes it explicitly clear that it is legal to can-flip, ninja, gank, etc all blatantly non-rookie pilots, even if they're in rookie systems.

With that said, can it be noted on the Rookie system wiki page that non-rookies are legal targets?


After double checking the rookie systems wiki page, there is obvious conflict between your statement and the red warning at the bottom of the page. If it is indeed legal to can-flip, gank, and ninja non-rookies in these systems, then this page really needs to be updated to reflect the actual rules. Otherwise, this page basically says that all players of eve are completely safe in the listed systems.


Can flipping is specifically mentioned because it is impossible to target someone specific. If you can flip a veteran in a rookie system we will (most likely) not take action against you. But if a rookie takes the bait you better not open fire.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Grinder2210
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#187 - 2012-06-13 11:30:54 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Grinder2210 wrote:


Well i dont like it but

Ty for anwsering



Good lord, please learn to quote properly. Also are you really complaining because you aren't allowed to grief rookies? Are you really that crap at EVE that you consider them targets?


Ty for the usefull advice you complants have been noted and filed
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#188 - 2012-06-13 11:31:33 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I don't think it's so much that Hek or any of the other systems are going to be re-classed as rookie systems, but that the rules set up for rookie systems will also ensure the safety of rookies who are sent to non-rookie systems as part of their NPE.
Yeah, see, that's still not the same thing, and that's where the entire problem lies:

The rookie system rule does not just ensure the safety of rookies — it ensures the safety of everyone. That's why reclassification of systems is a bad idea. It's also why referring to that rule outside of the actual rookie systems is a bad idea: because if we're just talking about the “don't mess with rookies” policy, then it's not the rookie system rule. Finally, having two separate rules is also a bad idea because then it comes down the rules-lawyering about when someone is considered a rookie and not — that differentiation will suddenly make all the difference in these not-actually-rookie-systems.


Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems.


Then define a rookie please.Is it a player on a trial account? How can we see this ingame?

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#189 - 2012-06-13 11:34:20 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I don't think it's so much that Hek or any of the other systems are going to be re-classed as rookie systems, but that the rules set up for rookie systems will also ensure the safety of rookies who are sent to non-rookie systems as part of their NPE.
Yeah, see, that's still not the same thing, and that's where the entire problem lies:

The rookie system rule does not just ensure the safety of rookies — it ensures the safety of everyone. That's why reclassification of systems is a bad idea. It's also why referring to that rule outside of the actual rookie systems is a bad idea: because if we're just talking about the “don't mess with rookies” policy, then it's not the rookie system rule. Finally, having two separate rules is also a bad idea because then it comes down the rules-lawyering about when someone is considered a rookie and not — that differentiation will suddenly make all the difference in these not-actually-rookie-systems.


Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems.


Then define a rookie please.Is it a player on a trial account? How can we see this ingame?



Sweet jesus you people are not very bright. Lets say anyone under a month old? Would that do you? Seems reasonable enough to me.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Luis Graca
#190 - 2012-06-13 11:35:22 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Luis Graca wrote:
Just an idea if CCP doesn't want to new die like that with just not make it impossible to lock someone that on a trial accounts AND that didn't engage anyone?

Ex: if someone try to can flip a newb the newb will just get is stuff and leave without any consequence, if the newb is no longer in trial or if he had already engage someone then he will simply lose it's immunity and be like any other player and can be shooted



First step to a pvp flag. Bad idea.



And why is that they can't make a big damage at tops they pop a hulk

Note. i said trail accounts not chars
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#191 - 2012-06-13 11:35:32 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I don't think it's so much that Hek or any of the other systems are going to be re-classed as rookie systems, but that the rules set up for rookie systems will also ensure the safety of rookies who are sent to non-rookie systems as part of their NPE.
Yeah, see, that's still not the same thing, and that's where the entire problem lies:

The rookie system rule does not just ensure the safety of rookies — it ensures the safety of everyone. That's why reclassification of systems is a bad idea. It's also why referring to that rule outside of the actual rookie systems is a bad idea: because if we're just talking about the “don't mess with rookies” policy, then it's not the rookie system rule. Finally, having two separate rules is also a bad idea because then it comes down the rules-lawyering about when someone is considered a rookie and not — that differentiation will suddenly make all the difference in these not-actually-rookie-systems.


Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems.


Then define a rookie please.Is it a player on a trial account? How can we see this ingame?


We are not going to define them. We say 8 days, someone will target 9 day old people. Again, spirit of the rule, not the letter. If you find yourself trying to figure out specifically where we draw the line you are obviously targeting rookies, which is NOT allowed. You decide to do this, you will find out where the line is when we warn you.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
GM Spiral
Game Master Retirement Home
#192 - 2012-06-13 11:36:01 UTC

  • Stopgap measures such as these policies are in place until a proper update to the NPE can be made. Measures that are less disruptive to the sandbox environments are being looked into.
  • Can baiting non-rookies in a rookie system? This is a monumentally bad idea on many levels. Dump a can outside a rookie system station or in a rookie system asteroid belt and try to convince me that the rookie you "accidentally" blew up after he poked around in your container was not an intended target. Take can baiting OUT of rookie systems! There are far more entertaining targets out there than those found in those systems. We'll keep the ruling as it stands on the wiki and act on reports as appropriate as they come in. GM discretion in these cases will apply.

Senior Game Master | CCP Games Customer Support Team

Helping capsuleers since 2004.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#193 - 2012-06-13 11:38:16 UTC
I think Forrest Gump said it best

Forrest Gump wrote:
Stupid is as stupid does


Seems to cover the attitude and mental capacity of those who believe that rookies are viable targets.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#194 - 2012-06-13 11:38:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
GM Homonoia wrote:
Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems.
Ok, but that's not what the rule says, and it's not how it has been interpreted in the past. I'll also refer you to this thread, where the lack of such a distinction is causing issues…

edit: …and I assume that by pointing you in that direction, the quote used in the OP of that thread will be removed, just to add to the confusion. Big smile

But ok, if you say so. That certainly solves the issue, but it (once again) casts the rule itself in a new light.

Quote:
Can flipping is specifically mentioned because it is impossible to target someone specific.
Eh? You mean baiting, I preseum, since can flipping is very specific — it one individual player (or corp… but since we're talking rookies here, they'll be in NPC corps and therefore be on their own) that is being targeted for the trick.
gfldex
#195 - 2012-06-13 11:38:49 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
My post very clearly mentions rookies.


As long as you don't define what a rookie is, you can mention them as often as you want, without making anything clear.

If you take all the sand out of the box, only the cat poo will remain.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#196 - 2012-06-13 11:39:22 UTC
Tippia wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Those are the same rules. There is no difference. You cannot mess with rookies. You can mess with anyone else no matter the system. veterans are NOT protected in rookie systems.
Ok, but that's not what the rule says, and it's not how it has been interpreted in the past. I'll also refer you to this thread, where the lack of such a distinction is causing issues.

But ok, if you say so. That certainly solves the issue, but it (once again) casts the rule itself in a new light.

Quote:
Can flipping is specifically mentioned because it is impossible to target someone specific.
Eh? You mean baiting, I preseum, since can flipping is very specific — it one individual player (or corp… but since we're talking rookies here, they'll be in NPC corps and therefore be on their own) that is being targeted for the trick.


My apologies, I did mean can baiting.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#197 - 2012-06-13 11:39:55 UTC
gfldex wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
My post very clearly mentions rookies.


As long as you don't define what a rookie is, you can mention them as often as you want, without making anything clear.


Re-quote from another post:

We are not going to define them. We say 8 days, someone will target 9 day old people. Again, spirit of the rule, not the letter. If you find yourself trying to figure out specifically where we draw the line you are obviously targeting rookies, which is NOT allowed. You decide to do this, you will find out where the line is when we warn you.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#198 - 2012-06-13 11:41:53 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:


Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant


Hek? a rooky system? WTF?

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.


We are always working on that. However, we are asking our community to act as a good community. We understand that it is a relatively small group that exhibits this behavior, but if you are targeting rookies specifically you need to stop it. Now, if a rookie wanders into low sec, by all means, blow them up. But do not specifically seek out rookies for a kill, scam, gank, etc. We will be extending these rules if that behavior does not cease. Note that these rules only apply to rookies. If you want to gank a hulk miner or a missioner flying a faction fit Rattlesnake in those areas, by all means.


Thank you for clarifying to 'some' people that a player flying a Hulk is not a newbie.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#199 - 2012-06-13 11:43:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
GM Homonoia wrote:
Can flipping is specifically mentioned because it is impossible to target someone specific. If you can flip a veteran in a rookie system we will (most likely) not take action against you. But if a rookie takes the bait you better not open fire.


I definitely understand the not-shooting at rookies if they take a flipped can, I was more concerned with the more common use-case of can-flipping, which is simply stealing to gain aggro against the owning player/corporation.

As long as it's still legal to steal from non-rookies and kill them (via flipping, stealing, ganking, ninjaing, war, or any other means) in these systems, then this is a perfectly reasonable rule. If these 25 systems are 100% safe zones for all players, then that's completely out of line and goes against the whole "no-where is safe" thing.

EDIT: Thankfully, this was addressed with your response to Tippia.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#200 - 2012-06-13 11:45:40 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Can flipping is specifically mentioned because it is impossible to target someone specific. If you can flip a veteran in a rookie system we will (most likely) not take action against you. But if a rookie takes the bait you better not open fire.


I definitely understand the not-shooting at rookies if they take a flipped can, I was more concerned with the more common use-case of can-flipping, which is simply stealing to gain aggro against the owning player/corporation.

As long as it's still legal to steal from non-rookies and kill them (via flipping, stealing, ganking, ninjaing, war, or any other means) in these systems, then this is a perfectly reasonable rule. If these 25 systems are 100% safe zones for all players, then that's completely out of line and goes against the whole "no-where is safe" thing.


See the post made by GM Spiral above. GM discretion is applied here and we generally do not protect veteran players, but if a rookie gets caught in the crossfire we act accordingly.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master