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Crimes for Unposted Policies?

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Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts.
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#161 - 2012-06-13 10:58:41 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon.

See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

History lesson
A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems.

Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well.

Present day
Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing.

Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant


Thanks for replying. Essentially, I just need to be extra careful I'm not messing with an extremely young player. I don't actively target them anyway but at least I know Arnon is being viewed with greater scrutiny.

Member of the Pink Pony Killboard Padding Alliance
Andre Jean Sarpantis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2012-06-13 10:59:39 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon.

See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

History lesson
A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems.

Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well.

Present day
Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing.

Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant



There are missing a few systems on the list, which are as following, Sheroo and Avyuh Both are Dagan systems as well, in which i recognized sometimes new SoE Epic arc flying newbies getting stolen the Dagan or baited the hell out of them after the thief droped Dagan in a can again.

I saw this happen a few times following the screams and curses in local coming from the newbies after they got sploded.

mfg

Andre Jean Sarpantis ( Roleplayed Nephew from the Serpentis founder )
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#163 - 2012-06-13 11:02:11 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:


Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant


Hek? a rooky system? WTF?

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.


We are always working on that. However, we are asking our community to act as a good community. We understand that it is a relatively small group that exhibits this behavior, but if you are targeting rookies specifically you need to stop it. Now, if a rookie wanders into low sec, by all means, blow them up. But do not specifically seek out rookies for a kill, scam, gank, etc. We will be extending these rules if that behavior does not cease. Note that these rules only apply to rookies. If you want to gank a hulk miner or a missioner flying a faction fit Rattlesnake in those areas, by all means.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#164 - 2012-06-13 11:05:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
DeBingJos wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:


Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant


Hek? a rooky system? WTF?

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.


Since you seem not to understand what the GM is saying, I'll make it clearer. They are telling you to leave the rookies alone who are running their SOE Epic Arc missions. Get it?


ROOKIES = OFF LIMITS.



It really isn't that difficult. If you are so bad at EVE that the only viable targets for you are rookie pilots, then you should probably reconsider if EVE is the game for you.


EDIT: GM Homonoia beat me to it Smile

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#165 - 2012-06-13 11:05:10 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.


Which actions, exactly? undocking for the first time?Roll
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#166 - 2012-06-13 11:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Adriel Malakai
GM Homonoia wrote:
We are always working on that. However, we are asking our community to act as a good community. We understand that it is a relatively small group that exhibits this behavior, but if you are targeting rookies specifically you need to stop it. Now, if a rookie wanders into low sec, by all means, blow them up. But do not specifically seek out rookies for a kill, scam, gank, etc. We will be extending these rules if that behavior does not cease. Note that these rules only apply to rookies. If you want to gank a hulk miner or a missioner flying a faction fit Rattlesnake in those areas, by all means.


EDIT: Misread post, the quote above makes it explicitly clear that it is legal to can-flip, ninja, gank, etc all blatantly non-rookie pilots, even if they're in rookie systems.

With that said, can it be noted on the Rookie system wiki page that non-rookies are legal targets?
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#167 - 2012-06-13 11:07:59 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.


Which actions, exactly? undocking for the first time?Roll


Most new players get canflipped, or they steal from a can labeled 'Free stuff'. Then they become red to and die. Stuff like this can be explained in the tutorials.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#168 - 2012-06-13 11:08:46 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Simi Kusoni wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:
Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon.

See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems

History lesson
A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems.

Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well.

Present day
Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing.

Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are:

- Tar
- Harerget
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Lisudeh
- Sosh
- Manarq
- Chainelant

If there is a ban on griefing rookies in these systems, will there also be a ban on stuff like hulk mining? And I presume anyone flying a BS/T3 is fair game right?

Not that I personally ever set foot in high sec, but I wouldn't want to see these systems become a safe haven for people who aren't rookies.


My post very clearly mentions rookies. We want everyone to let new players acclimate to the game before they are thrown in with the sharks. By all means, gank, steal from, scam and whatever else you want to experienced players. They should know the crack of the whip.

Ty for replying, seems like a reasonable change then.

Although its odd thinking of Hek as a rookie system.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#169 - 2012-06-13 11:09:59 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.


Which actions, exactly? undocking for the first time?Roll


Most new players get canflipped, or they steal from a can labeled 'Free stuff'. Then they become red to and die. Stuff like this can be explained in the tutorials.


so shooting someone who literally has no idea what can flipping even means is your idea of a fight?

FFS, come visit nullsec. I guarantee you'll find a real fight.
GM Homonoia
Game Master Retirement Home
#170 - 2012-06-13 11:10:46 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:
GM Homonoia wrote:


My post very clearly mentions rookies. We want everyone to let new players acclimate to the game before they are thrown in with the sharks. By all means, gank, steal from, scam and whatever else you want to experienced players. They should know the crack of the whip.

Ty for replying, seems like a reasonable change then.

Although its odd thinking of Hek as a rookie system.


It isn't yet. At the moment we are only adding Arnon to that list.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2012-06-13 11:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: DeBingJos
Akirei Scytale wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.


Which actions, exactly? undocking for the first time?Roll


Most new players get canflipped, or they steal from a can labeled 'Free stuff'. Then they become red to and die. Stuff like this can be explained in the tutorials.


so shooting someone who literally has no idea what can flipping even means is your idea of a fight?

FFS, come visit nullsec. I guarantee you'll find a real fight.


Read my post. I'm saying that the tutorials should explain the dangers of stealing form cans and other common things like canflipping. If the new players understand the dangers, rules like these should not be needed.

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Anya Ohaya
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#172 - 2012-06-13 11:12:10 UTC
Tah'ris Khlador wrote:
CCP needs to clarify if these systems are now protected by the 'rookie-griefing' blanket ruling that prevents all non-war based pvp in those systems.


I'd say it's just you. Karma is a *****.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#173 - 2012-06-13 11:13:39 UTC
Simi Kusoni wrote:


Although its odd thinking of Hek as a rookie system.



I don't think it's so much that Hek or any of the other systems are going to be re-classed as rookie systems, but that the rules set up for rookie systems will also ensure the safety of rookies who are sent to non-rookie systems as part of their NPE.

(my apologies for abusing the word rookie in this post, I did not sleep well last night Sad )

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#174 - 2012-06-13 11:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
DeBingJos wrote:


Read my post. I'm saying that the tutorials should explain the dangers of stealing form cans and other common things like canflipping. If the new players understand the dangers, rules like these should not be needed.



Pretty sure the tutorial DOES cover things like this. The problem isn't that the rookies are committing these acts, but that they are being griefed by older players who are too lame to find a REAL target.

EDIT: Removed pyramid quote

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Andre Jean Sarpantis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#175 - 2012-06-13 11:16:12 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.


Which actions, exactly? undocking for the first time?Roll


Most new players get canflipped, or they steal from a can labeled 'Free stuff'. Then they become red to and die. Stuff like this can be explained in the tutorials.



Oh Wow....seems you are one of those which happily show newbies how harsh Eve is in their very first start....you know the Tutorials require to dock off and get the first ship? And then a newbie returns sees a can labeled 'free stuff' until then he had just done the first step YOU REALLY think he would know about those consequences taking the stuff inside this can will have for him?

Geezus Christ....GM Homonoia should maybe have a look in your kill list and find alot of Newbie kills in it.....if so...enjoy your vacation my friend.

mfg

Andre Jean Sarpantis ( Roleplayed nephew from the Serpentis Founder )
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#176 - 2012-06-13 11:19:34 UTC  |  Edited by: DeBingJos
Andre Jean Sarpantis wrote:

Oh Wow....seems you are one of those which happily show newbies how harsh Eve is in their very first start....you know the Tutorials require to dock off and get the first ship? And then a newbie returns sees a can labeled 'free stuff' until then he had just done the first step YOU REALLY think he would know about those consequences taking the stuff inside this can will have for him?

Geezus Christ....GM Homonoia should maybe have a look in your kill list and find alot of Newbie kills in it.....if so...enjoy your vacation my friend.

mfg

Andre Jean Sarpantis ( Roleplayed nephew from the Serpentis Founder )


Feel free to check my kills. No I do not like people that kill new players. However I think it is better to tackle the problem at the root instead of treating the symptoms.

Before the rookie enters his first ship the basic gameplay mechanics should be explained. Otherwise everybody will leave them alone in the rookiesystems, but once they are ready with the epic arc they will get griefed. Is that better?

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#177 - 2012-06-13 11:21:52 UTC
Andre Jean Sarpantis wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:
Akirei Scytale wrote:
DeBingJos wrote:

I do not like where you are going. Give the new people a better tutorial so they understand the consequences of their actions instead of putting up these artificial limitations.


Which actions, exactly? undocking for the first time?Roll


Most new players get canflipped, or they steal from a can labeled 'Free stuff'. Then they become red to and die. Stuff like this can be explained in the tutorials.



Oh Wow....seems you are one of those which happily show newbies how harsh Eve is in their very first start....you know the Tutorials require to dock off and get the first ship? And then a newbie returns sees a can labeled 'free stuff' until then he had just done the first step YOU REALLY think he would know about those consequences taking the stuff inside this can will have for him?

Geezus Christ....GM Homonoia should maybe have a look in your kill list and find alot of Newbie kills in it.....if so...enjoy your vacation my friend.

mfg

Andre Jean Sarpantis ( Roleplayed nephew from the Serpentis Founder )



Or before you accuse people you could go check his killboard and realise he pretty much seems to live and kill in 0.4 and below, and within the first 5 pages of his latest kills there aren't ANY rookie kills at all. All he was doing was stating a fairly well known fact and suggesting a way to prevent it from happening.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Grinder2210
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#178 - 2012-06-13 11:22:29 UTC
GM Homonoia wrote:
Tl;dr We are extending our rookie griefing rules to the system of Arnon. See our wiki page on this subject: http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Rookie_Systems History lesson A long long time ago in a galaxy right here in the EVE universe we had a lot of new players who undocked for the very first time and were trying to figure out how to fly their ships. There was also a small group of players that wanted to pad their kill mails in the easiest way possible by preying upon those people who had not yet found the trigger to their civilian guns. This last group moved into the rookie starter systems and started killing our new recruits. This is not cool and so us game masters decided that messing with these newest and most helpless players was not allowed. A ban was put into place for griefing rookies in their starter systems. Of course, these predators decided that rules should be followed to the letter and the spirit behind these rules can be ignored at will and moved to the career agent systems to do the exact same thing. Unfortunately this forced us to extend the ban on griefing rookies to these systems as well. Present day Now these scavengers of corpses have moved to the Sisters of EVE epic arc systems to do the exact same thing once again. This is forcing us to extend this ban to the Arnon system as well. Let me state very clearly that we do so with great reluctance. We do NOT like to impose rules and limitations like these upon the sandbox and we do not do so lightly. These measures are always debated hotly within our department and can often take multiple months of deliberation to make absolutely sure we are doing the right thing. Let me state this very clearly here. We do NOT want experienced players to mess with rookies barely a week in. We are sure that you have worthier targets than these players who are still learning the ropes. If this behavior does not stop we may extend this rule to all systems that are covered in the Sisters of EVE epic arc. These systems are: - Tar - Harerget - Hatakani - Hek - Lustrevik - Tanoo - Lisudeh - Sosh - Manarq - Chainelant


Well i dont like it but

Ty for anwsering
Andre Jean Sarpantis
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#179 - 2012-06-13 11:25:34 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:


Feel free to check my kills. No I do not like people that kill new players. However I think it is better to tackle the problem at the root instead of treating the symptoms.

Before the rookie enters his first ship the basic gameplay mechanics should be explained. Otherwise everybody will leave them alone in the rookiesystems, but once they are ready with the epic arc they will get griefed. Is that better?


Then i suggest you post this idea in the Ideas and sugestions part rigth here on the forum and maybe CCP will implement those lecures in the First steps tutorial.

But more important would be if people would stop beeing the F***tards they want to be and stomping on the Newbies like they did and still do, CCP wants new players but if the older players behave like crap to those new players you can't expect CCP staying still and watching until the negative publicity keeps more players away from eve i f you get what i want to point out.

mfg

Andre Jean Sarpantis ( Roleplayed nephew From the Serpentis Founder )
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#180 - 2012-06-13 11:25:54 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I don't think it's so much that Hek or any of the other systems are going to be re-classed as rookie systems, but that the rules set up for rookie systems will also ensure the safety of rookies who are sent to non-rookie systems as part of their NPE.
Yeah, see, that's still not the same thing, and that's where the entire problem lies:

The rookie system rule does not just ensure the safety of rookies — it ensures the safety of everyone. That's why reclassification of systems is a bad idea. It's also why referring to that rule outside of the actual rookie systems is a bad idea: because if we're just talking about the “don't mess with rookies” policy, then it's not the rookie system rule. Finally, having two separate rules is also a bad idea because then it comes down the rules-lawyering about when someone is considered a rookie and not — that differentiation will suddenly make all the difference in these not-actually-rookie-systems.