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Lasers
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Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2012-06-13 07:34:12 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Gitanmaxx wrote:
If a weapon system was good why does almost every single amarr ship under BS end up being fitted with anything but lasers and better for it? Even on bonused ships?


Autocannon Zealot! Arty Harb! Blaster Slicer! New FOTM, you found it here guys!


Arty baddon! Oh, wait.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#42 - 2012-06-13 08:00:50 UTC
This is not a problem of lasers either, it's a problem of capless projectile guns. This is OP. They should consume some cap, even at a very low level.
Deerin
East Trading Co Ltd
#43 - 2012-06-13 08:27:32 UTC
It is much simplier:

Pro:
Has Scorch

Con:
Devours Cap

....and that's it. Everything else is irrelevant. IF anything needs a slight boost I'd maybe look at the beam lasers.

I believe that the OP underestimates the power of scorch by a large margin. On sub-bs fights there is a WTFBBQ zone within 13km where you can get webbed scrambled neuted etc. IF you can project good damage beyond 15km range without problems, then you have a chance to decide how the battle runs.....and this is actually all what this game is about.

Scorch just lets you do that better than any other weapon system in the game. Missiles deal low damage, long range weapons deal low damage and have tracking issues, autocannons and blasters are already in falloff and cannot use their full damage potential, drones can be killed.
Tor Gungnir
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2012-06-13 08:31:17 UTC
Deerin wrote:
It is much simplier:

Pro:
Has Scorch

Con:
Devours Cap



Pro:
The prettiest weapon system.

Con:
Has very confusing names for the different turrets.

Space. It seems to go on and on forever. But then you get to the end and a gorilla starts throwing barrels at you.
Maeltstome
Ten Thousand Days
#45 - 2012-06-13 10:40:39 UTC
Cameron Cahill wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:


Cane with ACs can hit for full damage @ 33km.


It never will



The guy is smoking crack. 33km opti AC's? Queue the tololol guy...
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#46 - 2012-06-13 11:32:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaikka Carel
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Soon Shin wrote:
The problem are mostly the ships.

If amarr ships and weapons are great as people claim how come Drakes and Hurricanes see far, far more use than Harbingers ever do? In the top 20 ships http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20 the Drake and Hurricane are on the top of the list, while Harbingers don't even appear on half the numbers.


Because Top 20 placement is almost purely determined by a ship fitting into one of the popular nullsec fleet doctrines.


Which also shows how good Harbinger is compared to them. We can run logical circles like this forever.

Why there's no doctrine that would use the pros of lasers and counter their cons at the same time? Not enough first? Too much second? I dunno.. but the fact remains the fact. Unless this whole statistic is a big damned lie.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-06-13 12:35:08 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Autocannon Zealot! Arty Harb!


Zealots use 650s. Harbinger with 650s outdamages pulse Harbinger.

Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Arty baddon! Oh, wait.


Just proves how bad lasers are when Abaddon is better with projectiles.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#48 - 2012-06-13 14:02:24 UTC
True, you see soo many zealot or abaddon with arty, I don't even know why pulse or beam lasers are still produced...

Oh, and of course oracle are a legend because it would have to use arty to be useful but cannot fit them.

Though you should tell some 0.0 entities about that because I see quite some pulse baddon which may not have been told that they should use arty.

About statistics, they only show what people prefer, not what is good or working. When you have to take 30 to a 100 people with you, you need that these people have the right skills, that they have the right ship, and that they are not too afraid of going along with you. That make inventing a new doctrine pretty difficult.

If anything, these statistics show that the drake and hurricane are very effective, not that the harbinger is bad.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-06-13 14:44:45 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Though you should tell some 0.0 entities about that because I see quite some pulse baddon which may not have been told that they should use arty.


Two words: Pandemic Legion
Haulie Berry
#50 - 2012-06-13 15:48:22 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Cameron Cahill wrote:
It never will


Unfortunately, I don't have a screenshot to prove it but I've done one 600+ dmg volley with 425s at 33km. Ok, not full damage, but close enough.

Stats were:
- Range with Barrage: 3,9+27 km
- 2x Gyrostab II and 2x TEs used
- No damage rigs or projectile damage implants


I kind of feel like maybe your understanding of optimal and falloff is inadequate.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-06-13 15:51:21 UTC
Haulie Berry wrote:
I kind of feel like maybe your understanding of optimal and falloff is inadequate.


Then please explain how I can hit for over 600 damage at 33km with 425s. Yes, I know it shouldn't even be possible but it happened.
Tomcio FromFarAway
Singularity's Edge
#52 - 2012-06-13 16:28:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tomcio FromFarAway
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Haulie Berry wrote:
I kind of feel like maybe your understanding of optimal and falloff is inadequate.


Then please explain how I can hit for over 600 damage at 33km with 425s. Yes, I know it shouldn't even be possible but it happened.


"'wreaking hit"

From time to time your guns can score a special hit called "wreaking hit". Chances are very low of course and if I remember correctly it has 3x damage mod.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-06-13 17:16:37 UTC
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
"'wreaking hit"

From time to time your guns can score a special hit called "wreaking hit". Chances are very low of course and if I remember correctly it has 3x damage mod.


But it was out of the range hit. Would be like winning in lottery. And I never win in lottery.
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-06-13 17:31:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Mfume Apocal
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Zealots use 650s. Harbinger with 650s outdamages pulse Harbinger.


You keep saying this, it's not true. I've never seen any fleet composed of arty Zealots. A pulse Harb literally does twice the DPS of a (hypothetical) 650 arty Harb.

Care to point out how you fit this magical arty-Harb that outdamages any kind of pulse Harb? Or a BR on all these Arty Zealot fleets I seem to be missing?

Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Arty baddon! Oh, wait.


Very few people use arty abaddons anymore. My alliance never really used them; NCdot, RZR, PL, they all use(d) pulse Abaddons. I'm actually having trouble thinking of anyone major who still does. They "made sense" back when jumping into 1000 dudes at range on a gate meant you only got 3 shots an hour, regardless of turret type.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2012-06-13 17:51:43 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Zealots use 650s. Harbinger with 650s outdamages pulse Harbinger.


You keep saying this, it's not true. I've never seen any fleet composed of arty Zealots. A pulse Harb literally does twice the DPS of a (hypothetical) 650 arty Harb.


Pulse Harbinger: 557 with Conflag, no implants
Arty Harbinger: 307 with Quake and stupidly long range for short range ammo, no implants
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2012-06-13 17:57:33 UTC
Call me crazy, but that looks a lot like less DPS with artillery...?
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#57 - 2012-06-13 17:58:17 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Tomcio FromFarAway wrote:
"'wreaking hit"

From time to time your guns can score a special hit called "wreaking hit". Chances are very low of course and if I remember correctly it has 3x damage mod.


But it was out of the range hit. Would be like winning in lottery. And I never win in lottery.


Actually, of your shots that hit a higher percentage will be wrecking if you're outside of optimal, eventually reaching 100% of all shots that hit as falloffs multiply. It's just that more hit in optimal, and the ones that hit but don't wreck in falloff are of lower quality.

No, I'm not making this up.
Alara IonStorm
#58 - 2012-06-13 17:58:42 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Zealots use 650s. Harbinger with 650s outdamages pulse Harbinger.


You keep saying this, it's not true. I've never seen any fleet composed of arty Zealots. A pulse Harb literally does twice the DPS of a (hypothetical) 650 arty Harb.


Pulse Harbinger: 557 with Conflag, no implants
Arty Harbinger: 307 with Quake and stupidly long range for short range ammo, no implants

So what you are saying is that I can less damage at a shorter optimal range then Scorch if I go 650mm Guns with no room for close range improvement like with Navy Multi-Frequency and doing no damage of consequence with any longer range projectile ammo. All while being less accurate to boot.

Where do I not sign up.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-06-13 18:05:02 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Call me crazy, but that looks a lot like less DPS with artillery...?


Pulses don't do "twice the DPS", especially at 30km.
Hurtado Soneka
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#60 - 2012-06-13 18:13:59 UTC
OP obviously doesnt realise lasers are OP Roll