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Crimes for Unposted Policies?

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Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#81 - 2012-06-13 01:37:39 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
The Blood-Stained Stars arc is considered to be part of the New Player Experience (NPE).

I therefore can understand that the GMs might get tired of responding to "interference" petitions and start swinging the ban-hammer.
…in which case they need to make this rules-change clear and actually reference which rule they're enforcing when swinging that hammer.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
You can try to 'Rationalize Away' the issue all you want.
Yes, asking them to communicate rules changes is pretty rational. Why are you so upset that people are asking for it?



I don't usually find myself agreeing with DeMichael, and even less often find myself disagreeing with you, but in this instance he is 100% correct and you seem to be nit picking a few words here and there while overlooking the glaringly obvious, so I shall re-quote it.


Posted: 2012.04.26 20:13
GM Homonoia wrote:
Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master



See, it clearly says do not mess with rookies. It also says that the rule remains vague for a purpose, precisely the purpose that has been displayed in this thread, where people are asking for super accurate detailed sets of rules.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#82 - 2012-06-13 01:41:41 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
So what people are conveniently skipping over here is the problem that this supposed ruling makes all of the SOE epic arc systems off limits for any kind of can flipping, ninja-ing, and baiting. This means that the following systems have been added to the 'no touch zone' (even against non-noobs, if we follow the way the rookie systems are handled):

- Arnon
- Emsar
- Manarq
- Tar
- Larvier
- Ashokon
- Attyn
- Avyuh
- Hatakani
- Hek
- Lustrevik
- Tanoo
- Harerget

And a few others I can't recall off the top of my head. The point of the OP wasn't to question whether or not shooting someone who just started the game is lame (which it is), but the fact that the GMs are arbitrarily enforcing a very clear rule in places it doesn't belong. The GMs need to make clear their expansion of systems, or actually train their GMs.

If they do plan expanding this protection to all epic arc systems, they need to think twice about how much protection this will offer to the veteran players who run the arcs (and who are, incidentally, the majority of the people who actually run the soe epic arc).


1: Show info on character.
2: Is character less than a month old?
3: If yes go to 5, if not go to 4.
4: Gank them.
5: Find someone who isn't a noob.

See how stupidly easy that is? Follow those simple rules when you scan down someone running an SOE mission and you'll be golden.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#83 - 2012-06-13 01:42:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I don't usually find myself agreeing with DeMichael, and even less often find myself disagreeing with you, but in this instance he is 100% correct and you seem to be nit picking a few words here and there while overlooking the glaringly obvious, so I shall re-quote it.
No, he's pretty much 100% wrong because he has failed to understand the issue, as he always does.

The quote you're using is completely irrelevant. The question is, as always, whether or not they have expanded the rules about can baiting/flipping to new systems without telling anyone. If so, could they please stop doing those changes on the sly and actually communicate such rules changes, because they have far-reaching implications.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#84 - 2012-06-13 01:43:16 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:

GM Homonoia wrote:
Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master



See, it clearly says do not mess with rookies. It also says that the rule remains vague for a purpose, precisely the purpose that has been displayed in this thread, where people are asking for super accurate detailed sets of rules.


The question at hand is whether or not the rookie system rule, in which all can-baiting, ninja-ing, and can-flipping are COMPLETELY off limits - even against veteran players in that system. The OP wanted to know if the epic arc systems are now ruled as rookie systems, in which case all non-war related kills are outlawed. This is not about whether or not killing rookies is ok, but whether or not CCP decided to make a bunch of blatantly non-rookie systems, safe-zones.

Learn to read before you post.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#85 - 2012-06-13 01:43:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I don't usually find myself agreeing with DeMichael, and even less often find myself disagreeing with you, but in this instance he is 100% correct and you seem to be nit picking a few words here and there while overlooking the glaringly obvious, so I shall re-quote it.
No, he's pretty much 100% wrong because he has failed to understand the issue, as he always does.

The quote you're using is completely irrelevant. The question is, as always, whether or not they have expanded the rules about can baiting/flipping to new systems without telling anyone. If so, could they please stop doing that and actually communicate such rules changes, because they have far-reaching implications.



The rule is DO NOT SCREW WITH NOOBS. How exactly is that hard to understand? The rule he posted and that I re-quoted is relevant to any situation involving noob pilots, it is not just about noob pilots in starter systems.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#86 - 2012-06-13 01:44:24 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
1: Show info on character.
2: Is character less than a month old?
3: If yes go to 5, if not go to 4.
4: Gank them.
5: Find someone who isn't a noob.

See how stupidly easy that is? Follow those simple rules when you scan down someone running an SOE mission and you'll be golden.


Way to be dense. The rookie system rules prevent any form of flipping, ninja-ing, etc in those systems, NOT just against rookies.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#87 - 2012-06-13 01:44:53 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
The rule is DO NOT SCREW WITH NOOBS. How exactly is that hard to understand?
That rule is not the issue, how is that so difficult to understand?
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#88 - 2012-06-13 01:45:01 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
The rule is DO NOT SCREW WITH NOOBS. How exactly is that hard to understand? The rule he posted and that I re-quoted is relevant to any situation involving noob pilots, it is not just about noob pilots in starter systems.


That is not what's being questioned here. Seriously, pull your head out of your ass.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#89 - 2012-06-13 01:45:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutter Isaacson
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:

GM Homonoia wrote:
Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master



See, it clearly says do not mess with rookies. It also says that the rule remains vague for a purpose, precisely the purpose that has been displayed in this thread, where people are asking for super accurate detailed sets of rules.


The question at hand is whether or not the rookie system rule, in which all can-baiting, ninja-ing, and can-flipping are COMPLETELY off limits - even against veteran players in that system. The OP wanted to know if the epic arc systems are now ruled as rookie systems, in which case all non-war related kills are outlawed. This is not about whether or not killing rookies is ok, but whether or not CCP decided to make a bunch of blatantly non-rookie systems, safe-zones.

Learn to read before you post.



If you cannot tell the difference between a rookie and a veteran player using the very simple method of checking pilot info then you need more than rule clarification, you need glasses and possibly some form of medical intervention.

EDIT: Clarification. The rule regarding rookies is not just to cover rookie systems, but to cover the rookies themselves, hence the lack of any super detailed rules as Homonia made quite clear.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2012-06-13 01:46:22 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
I don't usually find myself agreeing with DeMichael, and even less often find myself disagreeing with you, but in this instance he is 100% correct and you seem to be nit picking a few words here and there while overlooking the glaringly obvious, so I shall re-quote it.
No, he's pretty much 100% wrong because he has failed to understand the issue, as he always does.

The quote you're using is completely irrelevant. The question is, as always, whether or not they have expanded the rules about can baiting/flipping to new systems without telling anyone. If so, could they please stop doing that and actually communicate such rules changes, because they have far-reaching implications.



The rule is DO NOT SCREW WITH NOOBS. How exactly is that hard to understand? The rule he posted and that I re-quoted is relevant to any situation involving noob pilots, it is not just about noob pilots in starter systems.

Exactly.

'The Plan' | California Eve Players | Proposal - The Endless Battle
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#91 - 2012-06-13 01:46:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
If you cannot tell the difference between a rookie and a veteran player…
…is completely irrelevant because that is not the issue.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Exactly.
You have already confirmed that you do not understand the rule being discussed — no need to confirm it even further.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#92 - 2012-06-13 01:48:57 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
If you cannot tell the difference between a rookie and a veteran player…
…is completely irrelevant because that is not the issue.



Tippia, generally I respect your opinion, I find the majority of your posts to be well thought out and intelligent. However, your complete inability to understand a very simple concept is causing my brain to overload. How is it you fail to understand that the rules regarding rookies are not just to cover them in the starter systems, but to cover them until they pass that magic 1 month mark?

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2012-06-13 01:49:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
If you cannot tell the difference between a rookie and a veteran player…
…is completely irrelevant because that is not the issue.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Exactly.
You have already confirmed that you do not understand the rule being discussed — no need to confirm it even further.

I'm lost, what is everyone actually discussing at this point.
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#94 - 2012-06-13 01:52:24 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
If you cannot tell the difference between a rookie and a veteran player using the very simple method of checking pilot info then you need more than rule clarification, you need glasses and possibly some form of medical intervention.

EDIT: Clarification. The rule regarding rookies is not just to cover rookie systems, but to cover the rookies themselves, hence the lack of any super detailed rules as Homonia made quite clear.


Quote:
Can flipping / baiting

This refers to the practice of (ab)using the Criminal Flagging System to cause a fight between yourself and an unsuspecting party in high-security space. See main article for more.

Can flipping is officially considered griefing only in Rookie Systems. Some people do it just for fun, without the actual intent to cause the feelings of harassment and frustration in the victim. It is, however, also a typical form of griefing in the classic sense.


Source

The rules regarding rookie systems are explicitly clear. Doing anything but killing war targets in rookie systems is considered griefing, regardless of whether or not the target is a rookie. This means if the player is 6 years old and dies to you can flipping in the rookie systems, you have violated the EULA and can be warned/banned. If they expand the list of rookie systems to include the epic arc systems, this ruling also includes all non-rookies in those systems.

So again, pull your head out of your ass before you post.
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#95 - 2012-06-13 01:53:25 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
If you cannot tell the difference between a rookie and a veteran player…
…is completely irrelevant because that is not the issue.

DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Exactly.
You have already confirmed that you do not understand the rule being discussed — no need to confirm it even further.

I'm lost, what is everyone actually discussing at this point.



The op got warned/temp banned for repeatedly killing a rookie who was running an SOE Epic Arc mission. What people are arguing over is whether or not there has been a rule change regarding rookies.

The answer is no there hasn't been any change, it is merely that some people cannot wrap their heads around the idea that the rules in place for protecting rookies do NOT just cover their activities within the starter systems, but also ANY activity they undertake inherent to being a rookie, such as the SOE Epic Arc missions.

They have been told more than once that messing with rookies, at all, is not a good idea, whether it is in starter systems or not, and that the rules are left vague so as to avoid the issue with people finding and abusing loopholes in those rules.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#96 - 2012-06-13 01:54:14 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:

GM Homonoia wrote:
Some rules are vague on purpose and they will remain vague. This is the 'reckless driving' equivalent. If I define the rules to the last dot someone will simply find a loop hole and use it. The rule is "do not mess with rookies", and if you are in doubt the answer is ALWAYS 'do not do it'.

Senior GM Homonoia | Info Group | Senior Game Master



See, it clearly says do not mess with rookies. It also says that the rule remains vague for a purpose, precisely the purpose that has been displayed in this thread, where people are asking for super accurate detailed sets of rules.


The question at hand is whether or not the rookie system rule, in which all can-baiting, ninja-ing, and can-flipping are COMPLETELY off limits - even against veteran players in that system. The OP wanted to know if the epic arc systems are now ruled as rookie systems, in which case all non-war related kills are outlawed. This is not about whether or not killing rookies is ok, but whether or not CCP decided to make a bunch of blatantly non-rookie systems, safe-zones.

Learn to read before you post.

To be fair OP just sounds annoyed he got a warning/ban.

He wasn't given it for can baiting in those systems, or for ninja looting, so no the rules do not appear to have changed and do not need updating. He was, however, intentionally targeting and harassing new players which there are rules concerning.

I'm sure if he'd been going after "regular" players in those systems CCP would not have intervened.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#97 - 2012-06-13 01:54:35 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
If you cannot tell the difference between a rookie and a veteran player using the very simple method of checking pilot info then you need more than rule clarification, you need glasses and possibly some form of medical intervention.

EDIT: Clarification. The rule regarding rookies is not just to cover rookie systems, but to cover the rookies themselves, hence the lack of any super detailed rules as Homonia made quite clear.


Quote:
Can flipping / baiting

This refers to the practice of (ab)using the Criminal Flagging System to cause a fight between yourself and an unsuspecting party in high-security space. See main article for more.

Can flipping is officially considered griefing only in Rookie Systems. Some people do it just for fun, without the actual intent to cause the feelings of harassment and frustration in the victim. It is, however, also a typical form of griefing in the classic sense.


Source

The rules regarding rookie systems are explicitly clear. Doing anything but killing war targets in rookie systems is considered griefing, regardless of whether or not the target is a rookie. This means if the player is 6 years old and dies to you can flipping in the rookie systems, you have violated the EULA and can be warned/banned. If they expand the list of rookie systems to include the epic arc systems, this ruling also includes all non-rookies in those systems.

So again, pull your head out of your ass before you post.


Dear god another person who does not understand. That is the rule for ROOKIE SYSTEMS. It is not the ONLY rule designed to cover rookies. Seriously, how can people be so thick?

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#98 - 2012-06-13 01:56:32 UTC
I don't really care for any special privileges or protection granted to new players simply because giving them the illusion that they are immune in hisec will simply come back to bite them when they get suicide ganked while mining in a Hulk or traveling in a shiny T3. I could see why prohibiting can baiting in starter systems is disallowed, but epic arc systems are quite the stretch.

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Adriel Malakai
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#99 - 2012-06-13 01:56:52 UTC
Cutter Isaacson wrote:

Dear god another person who does not understand. That is the rule for ROOKIE SYSTEMS. It is not the ONLY rule designed to cover rookies. Seriously, how can people be so thick?


What you do NOT understand is that the warning/ban the OP was discussing mentioned that the epic arc systems WERE NOW CONSIDERED ROOKIE SYSTEMS. What people want to know is whether or not CCPs definition of rookie systems has been expanded. Have you even read the OP?
Cutter Isaacson
DEDSEC SAN FRANCISCO
#100 - 2012-06-13 01:58:36 UTC
Adriel Malakai wrote:
Cutter Isaacson wrote:
1: Show info on character.
2: Is character less than a month old?
3: If yes go to 5, if not go to 4.
4: Gank them.
5: Find someone who isn't a noob.

See how stupidly easy that is? Follow those simple rules when you scan down someone running an SOE mission and you'll be golden.


Way to be dense. The rookie system rules prevent any form of flipping, ninja-ing, etc in those systems, NOT just against rookies.



Way to be dense for not reading 90% of this thread, or the part of my quoted post where i mention SOE missions, which do not take place ONLY in rookie systems.

-10/10 for literacy issues.

"The truth is usually just an excuse for a lack of imagination." Elim Garak.