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Wait Hellmar what?
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St Mio
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-10-06 05:23:51 UTC
I heard that CCP is plotting to take over the world and that this is totally not a rumour. Roll
Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#42 - 2011-10-06 06:17:20 UTC
To me its quite clear that Hilmar is trying to make amends and find a way to get back into the good graces of the community, while simultanously reckognizing that as a manager of a business he can't simply close his eyes to what is taking place on the market.

Fundementally however this MT movement is less the future of the market and more the result of repeated failures in understanding how the MMO market actually works by developers.

Lets start at the begining. World of Warcraft was and is a fluke... say it with me people. Every MMO developer since the success of Blizzards WOW has been trying to capture that same wide audiance, as a result the games have been dumbed down and often simply trying to re-create that formula. What developers have failed to realize is that this market doesn't actually exist. World of Warcraft is what is often refered to as an "oddity in the market", something that happens for which there is no formula, no marketing strategy or answer to. It just happened and its success can only be attributed to a trend that took flight.

The next game on that chopping block is Star Wars Old Republic. Like many MMO's before it they spent unheard of amounts of money in an effort to create a game for "the massess" with some false sense of security that this market actually exists. It doesn't, the people who play World of Warcraft will not quit WOW to start playing this game. The result is that SWOTR will end up initially drawing fair numbers as a novalty, than slowly declining and eventually landing where Hilmar see's the future of MMO's going, the MT market. That however is not the future, but rather the place MMO's go to survive an otherwise certain death. It is not a victory to have your game free to play with an MT store, it is how we identify a failure. Yes financially these games that fail to bring in subscriptions recover thanks to a smaller audiance who likes the game and is willing to shell out the extra cash to play it, but this market is not the one they are after. Hence while surviving in this economy through MT after a failed attempt at being a subscription is hailed a victory and somehow attributed to being a future, it remains nothing more than the only option for a game developers game when they fail to meet their economic targets.

Saying MT is the future of MMO's is a traggic and very misguided notion. If your game is forced to be a MT game because you failed to successfully manage it as a subscription game, you have not succeeded, you have failed.

Its true that some games start out as MT games and they are very successful, but they are successful because they set that as a target, its a game designed for that audiance and its mechanics are built on MT as a foundation. There are a few exceptions but exceptions like Dungeons and Dragons Online are exceptions because even if they where not designed to be MT games intentionally they inadvertanly function well on that system. Its a coincidental design that worked.

Eve does not work with MT for one key reason that will never change. Its audiance doesn't like them. When CCP added the MT market they effectively added a feature to the game that Eve players see as insulting, its a feature for an entirely different market that does not exist within Eve. At this point however Eve players are indifferent because the MT market is meaningless, it doesn't affect anything. If the MT market ever does actually offer "pay to win items", the Eve community response will be definitively hostile. Think about it. The mere mention, that sometime, it might be possible that maybe they might add some gold ammo like items (even if it was just a rumor) all hell broke loose. What happens if they actually pull the trigger on it?

MT in Eve is a door that is forever closed. Openning it would be the equivilant of putting a gun to your head and pulling the trigger, I hope Hilmar and CCP's investors are smart enough to realize that. If the game fails as a subscription based game, it has failed. There is no "alternative methods" on which this game can succeed.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
#43 - 2011-10-06 06:37:24 UTC
Darth Skorpius wrote:
Ong wrote:
Removing subscription from the game would mean that they have to make a metric **** ton of money from microtransactions. The only way other games have done this is by doing pay to win.

What Hellmar is saying is that if the industry mostly goes that way (which it is) ccp will also do this. Which is what all the forum hurf durf and protests were about.


im completely forgot that turbine has starting offering lvl capped characters in thier ingame cash store and that you can buy the best gear possible with rl cash.

oh thats right, they dont offer either of those. and yet their revenue from lotro has increased by something like 400% since the introduction of a cash store. f2p and cash stores do NOT mean pay 2 win, turbine has proven you can make a shitload of money from selling virtual clothes that have a different colour pattern, so long as the prices are reasonable. and yes they offer some convienence items like travel skills but nothing that gives anyone an advantage over someone who invests time in actually playing.

ccp should take some notes from turbine, they could learn a lot about how to run the nex store


You have actually looked through the list of items for sale in LOTRO's item shop haven't you? So you believe that purchasing buffs, debuffs, skills, consumables, items, etc from Turbines cash shop doesn't give an advantage?

Ok then, if CCP added skills, boosters, ammo, components, etc to the Nex store that wouldn't be P2W? I think there might be a few people who would disagree with you on that one.

Nex (Cash Shop) / Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future.

Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
#44 - 2011-10-06 07:16:44 UTC
Ramacliv wrote:
I read the same lines and my immediate reaction was much the same as the OP. In one line he says we have no plans for anything but vanity items unless the industry undergoes drastic changes. However unquoted here was the scary part where he says the industry is changing from subscription based games. So in one place you give us what will cause you to change what is the current plan and then say later on that those conditions are close to being met???

Funny thing is I can no longer find the original of this document. I am still looking for it and when I do I will edit it and add the quote.

Found it and please read all of this I bolded the parts that make me concerned.
"
We also didn’t do enough to assure you that this wasn’t the beginning of a “pay to win” scenario in EVE. Let me be blunt: Unless the MMO business changes radically, our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope and focus on vanity items, or as we said after the CSM visit this summer: The investment of money in EVE should not give you an unfair advantage over the investment of time.

Though the introduction was clearly flawed, our plans for virtual goods are intended to make your playing experience better, not to disrupt it. From a strategic perspective, we had to take these first steps because monthly subscriptions are increasingly becoming a thing of the past. The culture of online gaming is changing, just as the notion of digital ownership did with music. If we don’t evolve our technology, our game design and our revenue model, then we risk obsolescence, and we just can’t allow that to happen to EVE or to our community."

Tough choice for CCP as to what to do. Personally I think going full F2P would be detrimental to the game and would completely change the dynamic of it. By it's very nature, I can't see a F2P/cash shop model working in a PvP sandbox game.

Hilmar wrote:
If we don’t evolve our technology, our game design and our revenue model, then we risk obsolescence, and we just can’t allow that to happen to EVE or to our community.

I'm not sure why people are saying that an eventual change in the pricing model is just 'rumour' and other such things, because Hilmar is telling you right there in black and white where the game is headed on that front.

Hilmar wrote:
Though the introduction was clearly flawed, our plans for virtual goods are intended to make your playing experience better, not to disrupt it.

So paying $70 for a monocle, or for any of the other overpriced Nex items makes my play experience better how exactly? Paying ridiculous prices for digital items is a game feature now?

Nex (Cash Shop) / Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future.

Kryss Darkdust
The Skulls
#45 - 2011-10-06 07:37:15 UTC
Quote:
So paying $70 for a monocle, or for any of the other overpriced Nex items makes my play experience better how exactly? Paying ridiculous prices for digital items is a game feature now?


As shocking and silly as it may seem to a lot of Eve players, there are literly millions of dollars being spent every year on virtual, cosmetic items in countless games and the prices are no more or less ridiculous than the monicle. Hilmar simply has identified this as a part of gaming by looking to other games as examples. His failure is his belief that any of these people actually play Eve, I'm sure their are a few lurkers but by and large Eve players are about finding ways to "not pay", rather than pay. PLEX has openned that door by allowing guys like me who know how to make billions in game to essentially pay for free. You think if I'm avoiding a 15.99 charge to play the game, I'm going to shell out 70 bucks for a cosmetic item? **** no. I wouldn't pay for that **** if I was a billionare.

My attitude I find is generally shared by the large portion of the community, which is why I play Eve, I find the community to be an appropriatly place for me as I see them as my peers (even if they are trying to kill me in game all the time).

I think what he is saying here is that the whole point of the NEX store was to give those players interested in dressing up their avatars to show off their looks to other players, a way to do that. The problem is that the monicle is the only item game that Im aware of that is actually visible by anyone else but you. Since incarna is a solo game still, the whole NEX store was simply premature and I think thats what he was trying to identify as the problem and I agree with him. While the large portion of the community will still never buy a monicle, once Incarna is what its suppose to be WiS, people will likely play dress up space barbie because their is in fact a market their for that, however smaller it is in Eve. More so however it is something that may actually attract a lot of new players because their are a lot of people out their that would pay 15.99 to be able to play Eve so they can spend 70 bucks on monicles and walk around in space stations running virtual stores and playing space barbie. As foreign as that may seem to current Eve players, this market actually does exist and its quite massive.

My point is that Incarna as a concept, if executed properly does actually have a lot of potential, even if the target of that potential is not the current player base.

The reality of Eve is that, if you don't love it like it is today, you should probobly go ahead and unsub. 
Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#46 - 2011-10-06 07:37:23 UTC
Face it guys, if Hilmar/CCP issued a blag saying 'Eve wil be totally free to play with no pay to own items, fully free forever and we will also give eah player some extra stuff' people like the OP would still whine and bleat and try to cause drama.

Its just people trying to be relevent, probably due to failing real life so hard.

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#47 - 2011-10-06 07:46:49 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Apparently the only acceptable statements from CEO's are concrete promises that can never be violated under any circumstances.

And why not? It's completely reasonable to expect all corporations to be able to predict the future, tell you exactly what will work and what won't, promise their customers a blanket course of action irregardless of changing external factors, and than deliver their products on time, in exactly the form customers demand, at their price point, and still beat their competition.

How dare you admit the possibility of changing your plans, Hellmar, how dare you. :-P


This is not just empty quoting. I support this 100% and OP is annoyinckx

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#48 - 2011-10-06 08:27:42 UTC
Kryss Darkdust wrote:
My point is that Incarna as a concept, if executed properly does actually have a lot of potential, even if the target of that potential is not the current player base.

And we will call them... Victims Bear

They have to undock SOMETIME... Perhaps being a virtual fashionista will be profitable enough for them to pay bodyguards or something tho Shocked

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Mirime Nolwe
Mantra of Pain
#49 - 2011-10-06 09:20:48 UTC
I´m happy with this behavior from the CEO of CCP, still, my trust will not be gained with a few words. As he says in the blog, a lot of players follow the meme he have created "look at what they do and not what they say". So, i will be waiting with Plex's (while i have the isk for it) until i see real changes in game and CCP position.

Anyway, this is a start. It seems arrogance is behind, we need CCP to be humble and passionate about EVE like they have been since 2003. Start working and showing that you love this game as much as we all do.
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#50 - 2011-10-06 09:26:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Miilla
Bread and Circuses the new old PR, seems to work.

Now we dare not criticise CCP or we will be called unpatriotic.

It worked for the Herman Göering and it is working on the forums tool


IN other words, nothing is going to change, they are still pushing their direction with Eve (the Prototype for World of Darkness - THEIR SELF ADMISSION in their interviews), they also will follow what the rest of the MMO industry is doing and FREE TO PLAY will come. No change in CCP direction here EXCEPT.......

Quote:

"Bread and Circuses" (or bread and games) (from Latin: panem et circenses) is a metaphor for a superficial means of appeasement. In the case of politics, the phrase is used to describe the creation of public approval, not through exemplary or excellent public service or public policy, but through the mere satisfaction of the immediate, shallow requirements of a populace


You are being given mere satisfaction of immediate and shallow requirements
Hint: SHIP SPINNING and Incarna being called a "side game" and NEX being said (for now) vanity only


Let me just put this PRESS INTERVIEW from CCP here...

www.wodnews.net/Home/tabid/41/ctl/ArticleView/mid/401/articleId/69/New-WoD-MMO-info-from-The-Grand-Masquerade.aspx

Quote:

Incarna is actually considered a prototype, the rendering engine that will ship with the MMO will be much more advanced.


Right now they will say anything and give SMALL appeasements to keep the money flowing to World of Darkness and the prototype continually being tested (by YOU).
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#51 - 2011-10-06 09:27:46 UTC
Miilla wrote:
Bread and Circuses the new old PR, seems to work.

Now we dare not criticise CCP or we will be called unpatriotic.

It worked for the Herman Göering and it is working on the forums tool

AttentionQuit being unpatriotic! Bear

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Jashmyne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2011-10-06 10:04:57 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
uh basically if it becomes impossible to support the game via subscriptions they will go pay to win, just like LOTRO and all the other MMO's that started to fail, then they went pay 2 win

Guess you missed the post a few steps above you or you are just ignoring that post and want to continue speaking out of ignorance.
LOTRO is not Pay 2 win, their shop offer no items that give you any advantage over other people. Most of their items except for some store exclusive mounts and outfits can be purchased in the game using in-game money or crafted. The shop is pretty much there just for convience, for the players that can't be arsed to craft or simply forgot to stack up on health potions or power potions.
And CCP were go F2P then looking at Turbine and how they did it would be a good choice as their model is considered to be the best free to play model around just because it offers no advantages at all.
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#53 - 2011-10-06 10:11:08 UTC
NCSoft and Guild wars seems to be doing well.. without subscriptions and vanity only items

CCP just want to be BIIIIIGGGGGG, probably too big for their own good.
Darth Skorpius
352 Industries
#54 - 2011-10-06 10:25:58 UTC
Jashmyne wrote:
Herping yourDerp wrote:
uh basically if it becomes impossible to support the game via subscriptions they will go pay to win, just like LOTRO and all the other MMO's that started to fail, then they went pay 2 win

Guess you missed the post a few steps above you or you are just ignoring that post and want to continue speaking out of ignorance.
LOTRO is not Pay 2 win, their shop offer no items that give you any advantage over other people. Most of their items except for some store exclusive mounts and outfits can be purchased in the game using in-game money or crafted. The shop is pretty much there just for convience, for the players that can't be arsed to craft or simply forgot to stack up on health potions or power potions.
And CCP were go F2P then looking at Turbine and how they did it would be a good choice as their model is considered to be the best free to play model around just because it offers no advantages at all.


eaxactly. 90% of whats in the lotro store is available ingame, the rest is for lazy people that dont want to grind for 6 hours to complete a deed or to cut down on travel time, and even the travel items in the store are pointless for an entire class and partly (or even mostly) for another. at no point do you have to buy anything to avoid falling behind and at no point will buying anything availble give you an advantage over anyone else. the only people who have ot use the store are those not paying a subscription fee in order ot unlock regional quest packs, which is kinda like if ccp were to restrict trial accounts to the forge region

also, lotro never started to fail, on my server there had been a steady increase of players since the game launched in 2007 and many other servers reported the same thing. it went f2p because it worked so well with ddo (which was actually failing) that as a bussiness turbine couldnt ignore the idea of using the same model with lotro, which is more of a hybrid model than a purely f2p model

Follow my Adventures in New Eden!
Jashmyne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2011-10-06 10:56:20 UTC
Darth Skorpius wrote:

also, lotro never started to fail, on my server there had been a steady increase of players since the game launched in 2007 and many other servers reported the same thing. it went f2p because it worked so well with ddo (which was actually failing) that as a bussiness turbine couldnt ignore the idea of using the same model with lotro, which is more of a hybrid model than a purely f2p model

Laurelin ?
Azahni Vah'nos
Vah'nos Family
#56 - 2011-10-06 11:09:24 UTC
Jashmyne wrote:
Herping yourDerp wrote:
uh basically if it becomes impossible to support the game via subscriptions they will go pay to win, just like LOTRO and all the other MMO's that started to fail, then they went pay 2 win

Guess you missed the post a few steps above you or you are just ignoring that post and want to continue speaking out of ignorance.
LOTRO is not Pay 2 win, their shop offer no items that give you any advantage over other people. Most of their items except for some store exclusive mounts and outfits can be purchased in the game using in-game money or crafted. The shop is pretty much there just for convience, for the players that can't be arsed to craft or simply forgot to stack up on health potions or power potions.
And CCP were go F2P then looking at Turbine and how they did it would be a good choice as their model is considered to be the best free to play model around just because it offers no advantages at all.

The LOTRO system is the equivalent of having a ship for sale in the Nex store and you telling me it isn't an advantage because I could make one.

They are completely different games, in LOTRO, being themepark PVE orientated it doesn't have any bearing if items, buffs, damage reducers, etc are sold in their cash shop. Now apply a similar thing to EVE, a sandbox PvP based sovereignty game, still think it wouldn't be an advantage?

Oh and btw if you do some research you will notice the forum posts about LOTRO becoming P2W have been squashed remorselessly for quite a while now by the forum moderators. Turbine even removed their own post saying the item shop was only for convenience and not for advantage.

Nex (Cash Shop) / Aurum - removing sand from the sandbox since Incarna. Currently the only use for aurum is to buy virtual items in the in-game store, but Cockerill expects to expand its uses in the future.

Jashmyne
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2011-10-06 12:02:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Jashmyne
Posts about LOTRO being a P2W game is no doubt being posted by the same type of people who are posting the same nonsense here. CCP allows such posts, the moderators at LOTRO see it as trolling and deal with it. I have been a moderator for gaming forums and in all those forums we did the same against posts that were considered trolling. Different forums different rules.

As for the rest, LOTRO has PVP which brings advantages to PVEers if their team does well so PVP is a useful feature in LOTRO which many people take part in. But no items in the shop brings any advantages in PVP unless you count healing potions which can be bought or crafted by any average joe which you can't spam due to cooldown when used.
And the new expansion pack brought no such items either. Just more vanity clothes, furniture, mounts and travel points.

As for buying ships in Eve Online with real-life money, how do you think I got my ships ? By grinding my butt off ? Hell no, I bought a few plex using real money, sold it at the market and used that money to buy my ships and fittings(which is how I got my outfits as well, I didn't use any Aurum for that). As long as it's a pre-existing ship then CCP can put them on the shop as much as they want as long as they are obtainable for the market as well using ISK. They can put reskins of a existing ship exclusivly on the cash shop for all I care as such a move would not bring any advantages to anyone.
Alex Sinai
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-10-06 12:15:01 UTC
Ong wrote:
Sorry did I read between the lines and take theses quotes from Hellmar's blog correctly?

"Unless the MMO business changes radically, our virtual goods strategy for EVE Online will remain limited in scope and focus on vanity items"

"Though the introduction was clearly flawed, our plans for virtual goods are intended to make your playing experience better, not to disrupt it. From a strategic perspective, we had to take these first steps because monthly subscriptions are increasingly becoming a thing of the past"

I take from these that right now you wont, but in the future you might do 'pay to win'

And I'm meant to be grateful and applaud Ugh



Exactly the thing that caught my eye in that blog.
I was happy and my confidence in CCP was restoring while i was reading until i hit that part. So, no P2W but P2W in future. CCP CEO seems unable to understand that these $ signs in his eyes that he sees in P2W model are very far from fitting EVE player base and will never be successful in EVE in long term. He saw the great exodus and made a good job in understanding most of the reasons for it. What he missed is that P2W model he would love to see also being a very important reason for exodus.

I will give my own example.
I was training an alt on trial thinking to pay for subscription of it or not since i wasn't sure if the game going to go P2W or subscriptions. Now i'm sure the game going to switch to P2W model in a year or so or even go subscriptions + p2w. So i let that alt run out of trial and not paying for it. That's another 15$ a month missing from CCP wallet.

Why I play EVE and not Star Trek? One of the biggest reasons is their business model. I don't like paying subscription and having shop in game. Thus disregarding me being a very big fan of Star Trek universe I will never play that MMO. Because of their business model.

CCP CEO hits his own mistakes again and again. Will it take another plunge of players for him to understand that EVE and P2W will never go together? And if he decide to change the player base, well it wont be the same EVE and will probably close in a few years. Stop even thinking about that already. Its stupid and you saw it is stupid. Its either long term stable cash flow or fast cash and closure. EVE will never be WoW and not supposed to be. CCP will never become Blizzard and to be blunt don't have the potential to become that. Stop trying to make it what it can't and won't be.

Don't let them fly safe!
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#59 - 2011-10-06 12:17:59 UTC
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
This is called selective copy pasting and creating rumours out of thin air :)



Which is basically what all the idiots on these forums, hell the entire internet, do all the time. Ignore them and move on.
Miilla
Hulkageddon Orphanage
#60 - 2011-10-06 12:20:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Miilla
Dorian Wylde wrote:
Grey Stormshadow wrote:
This is called selective copy pasting and creating rumours out of thin air :)



Which is basically what all the idiots on these forums, hell the entire internet, do all the time. Ignore them and move on.



How about this for selective copy pasting creating rumours out of thin air?



www.wodnews.net/Home/tabid/41/ctl/ArticleView/mid/401/articleId/69/New-WoD-MMO-info-from-The-Grand-Masquerade.aspx

Quote:

Incarna is actually considered a prototype, the rendering engine that will ship with the MMO will be much more advanced.



This quote ranks up there next to Bill Gates admitting that Vaccines and health care are used to reduce population :) Yes I can link that video with HIS words at the TED presentation. Actually, here it is :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDEkPcoth8E