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CCP - Drop the Mac Client - Open Letter to CCP & Apple
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Fabio Bittar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2012-06-07 17:59:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Fabio Bittar
To CCP,

(I'll be writing to Apple later)

I'll keep this short. You should drop the Mac Client. Customers see Eve Online on Apple's website and immediately feel like it's a quality product for the Mac, but it is not. It's not even an OS X application.

Fabio.
Solana Dal'Annae
Silverleaf Industries
#2 - 2012-06-07 18:36:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Solana Dal'Annae
Fabio Bittar wrote:
To CCP,

(I'll be writing to Apple later)

I'll keep this short. You should drop the Mac Client. Customers see Eve Online on Apple's website and immediately feel like it's a quality product for the Mac, but it is not. It's not even an OS X application.

Fabio.

I have a 4.5 year old Mac and it still runs EVE well, in MacOS X mind you.

There have been periods when things haven't worked great, but overall, this has been rare. I would be very sad if I CCP stopped maintaining the Mac version of the game.


Feel free to elaborate on why it being or not being a (extrapolating) native OS X application is important.
Fabio Bittar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-06-07 18:47:46 UTC
Solana Dal'Annae wrote:
Fabio Bittar wrote:
To CCP,

(I'll be writing to Apple later)

I'll keep this short. You should drop the Mac Client. Customers see Eve Online on Apple's website and immediately feel like it's a quality product for the Mac, but it is not. It's not even an OS X application.

Fabio.

I have a 4.5 year old Mac and it still runs EVE well, in MacOS X mind you.

There have been periods when things haven't worked great, but overall, this has been rare. I would be very sad if I CCP stopped maintaining the Mac version of the game.


Feel free to elaborate on why it being or not being a (extrapolating) native OS X application is important.


From what I've read in these forums, the Wine wrapper is maintained by a third-party, not CCP. Also, they advertise it as Mac software, or at the very least, they show you a Macbook Pro running Eve without saying it's a Windows application running through a Wine wrapper, which is misleading customers to believe this is native software. It is not, and it is not stable.

That's as elaborate an explanation as I can give you right now.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#4 - 2012-06-07 20:44:00 UTC
For me, this is very simple: In order to run Windows on EVE, I'd have to buy and install and maintain Windows. I have no other reason to do so, and absolutely no desire to do so.

The day I can't run EVE on a Mac--in a WINE wrapper, or however--is the day I stop playing.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Kilen Hurley
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2012-06-07 22:29:44 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
For me, this is very simple: In order to run Windows on EVE, I'd have to buy and install and maintain Windows. I have no other reason to do so, and absolutely no desire to do so.

The day I can't run EVE on a Mac--in a WINE wrapper, or however--is the day I stop playing.

SO TRUE!

Eve runs really good on my iMac, but it does start to feel a bit sluggish on my macbook air.

Why isn't eve a native mac application?
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#6 - 2012-06-07 23:04:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
The situation is even worse for me. My MBP is provided free by work, and they want all laptop users to always be using their company computer. As a result they allow game playing on it. But its also automatically backed up by the company backup system. That system cannot backup a bootcamp partition. So, unless required for work and there is no other option: no bootcamp. The result: Either there is some form of Eve on a Mac, or I would have to buy a computer for the singular purpose of eve, or I'd just stop playing (the likely outcome).

Also eve is quite playable for me. I hit one of the annoying bugs (freeze, sticky mouse) once or twice a week. I sure do not want it to go away.

But I also sure would like a native version of it. The graphics would be so much faster!

Edit: its not native now because it would be a huge development effort, and an ongoing effort to maintain it as expansions are rolled out. I'm not convinced CCP has done the economic trade study properly on if its worth it. A native version would attract and retain many more Mac users and could well pay for its development. Even the inde game "Aquaria" has both a PC and a Mac version, and it was written by a grand total of 2 people. It cannot be that hard.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
The Legendary Soldier
United.
#7 - 2012-06-08 10:18:34 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
For me, this is very simple: In order to run Windows on EVE, I'd have to buy and install and maintain Windows. I have no other reason to do so, and absolutely no desire to do so.

The day I can't run EVE on a Mac--in a WINE wrapper, or however--is the day I stop playing.


This.

It runs ok on my imac - i would like it to run better.

But I will not buy a windows computer, or install windows on my mac for any reason - even if that means I cannot play.

Need to place a high-sec POS? Premade corps for sale, or your corps standings boosted. Trading since January 2012. Many corps sold/boosted - see my thread: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=63128&find=unread
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#8 - 2012-06-12 15:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Kilen Hurley wrote:
Why isn't eve a native mac application?


Vincent touched on it, broadly; the specific answer is that they use Microsoft's DirectX for graphics, and OS X uses OpenGL.

The two are different, and DirectX tends to be a little farther ahead because it's not maintained by a multi-company standards committee, but the people on the DirectX board include game programmers who try to keep it from being too different because that makes their lives harder.

There are other options besides a WINE wrapper; there are plenty of companies that have experience porting games over, and robust DirectX->OpenGL translation layers (there are some other little bits that would have to change, but AFAIK nothing major). However, these probably cost CCP more money than TransGaming's solution, and it would mean a possible delay in the Mac client every time there was a significant change to the Windows client.

The ultimate solution would be for CCP to write their own OpenGL layer and ship a DirectX build to Windows and OpenGL to Mac (and Linux), but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

The real, ultimate solution to this is more Mac users playing EVE.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#9 - 2012-06-12 20:08:13 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
..............

The ultimate solution would be for CCP to write their own OpenGL layer and ship a DirectX build to Windows and OpenGL to Mac (and Linux), but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

The real, ultimate solution to this is more Mac users playing EVE.


Or one client with both DirectX and OpenGL calls, and the client just uses whichever one is appropriate for the OS.

Will OpenGL work on a PC? At all? Could CCP drop DirectX, do everything in OpenGL and have it work for everyone?

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#10 - 2012-06-12 20:56:25 UTC
Vincent Athena wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
..............

The ultimate solution would be for CCP to write their own OpenGL layer and ship a DirectX build to Windows and OpenGL to Mac (and Linux), but I'm not holding my breath on that one.

The real, ultimate solution to this is more Mac users playing EVE.


Or one client with both DirectX and OpenGL calls, and the client just uses whichever one is appropriate for the OS.

Will OpenGL work on a PC? At all? Could CCP drop DirectX, do everything in OpenGL and have it work for everyone?


It'll work if someone writes a driver for it, sure. The problem is that I don't know who does--I haven't given graphics programming a serious look in years--or whether it's free. DirectX is, of course, installed on Windows for free. Hard to compete with that.

Add in that OpenGL is usually playing catch-up on the features front, and sometimes by a year or two; that if a game company advertises a graphics job they're probably going to get 100 DirectX programmers for every OpenGL programmer for reasons that are older than EVE, and; that a significant majority of the EVE player base runs the Windows client.

CCP is a small company. Asking them to hire a fairly hard-to-find team of programmers to essentially duplicate the effort that their existing teams have already put in, on behalf of a stark minority of the player base, is a bit rich. It's just not going to happen.

In fact, I would answer this thread by saying that if you want a better Mac client, run the Mac client. The more visible we are, the more justified CCP is in catering to us.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#11 - 2012-06-13 10:20:51 UTC
Fabio Bittar wrote:
To CCP,

(I'll be writing to Apple later)

I'll keep this short. You should drop the Mac Client. Customers see Eve Online on Apple's website and immediately feel like it's a quality product for the Mac, but it is not. It's not even an OS X application.

Fabio.


How so incredibly egoistic from you.

If you have such big problems forcing you over the dark side fine, but don't push that crap upon us, or at the least me. I'm fine with the Mac client, tough it has some problems now, which I think they'll eventually fix as they have always done.

The day the Mac client goes the way the Linux client went, some part of me will die.
Doc Deeb
#12 - 2012-06-13 10:57:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Doc Deeb
Fabio Bittar wrote:
Solana Dal'Annae wrote:
Fabio Bittar wrote:
To CCP,

(I'll be writing to Apple later)

I'll keep this short. You should drop the Mac Client. Customers see Eve Online on Apple's website and immediately feel like it's a quality product for the Mac, but it is not. It's not even an OS X application.

Fabio.

I have a 4.5 year old Mac and it still runs EVE well, in MacOS X mind you.

There have been periods when things haven't worked great, but overall, this has been rare. I would be very sad if I CCP stopped maintaining the Mac version of the game.


Feel free to elaborate on why it being or not being a (extrapolating) native OS X application is important.


From what I've read in these forums, the Wine wrapper is maintained by a third-party, not CCP. Also, they advertise it as Mac software, or at the very least, they show you a Macbook Pro running Eve without saying it's a Windows application running through a Wine wrapper, which is misleading customers to believe this is native software. It is not, and it is not stable.

That's as elaborate an explanation as I can give you right now.


So software companies never use 3rd party components without telling you?... wake up and smell the roses.

I for one dont support this petition, if anything going by the global Mac sales there should be the complete opposite - a petition to improve the client and actually market it.

I have a 2008 24" iMac, only issues i face these days is the inability to extend it beyond 6Gb ram so i can tripple box again. Yes as solana stated there's been a few ups and downs along the way but i've been playing for 6+ years, i'd rather not see it come to an end because someone questions the authenticity of the code base.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#13 - 2012-06-13 19:27:45 UTC
Doc Deeb wrote:
So software companies never use 3rd party components without telling you?... wake up and smell the roses.


And certainly never for Mac games. I can't think of a single third-party port. *cough*

Doc Deeb wrote:
I for one dont support this petition, if anything going by the global Mac sales there should be the complete opposite - a petition to improve the client and actually market it.


Indeed. A few years ago, there were about 25 million of us. Now, there are 66 million. Now is not the time to throw in the towel.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Luh Windan
green fish hat bang bang
#14 - 2012-06-15 09:56:47 UTC
Dear CPP Please ignore the OP

Yes you could improve the Mac client I am sure and yes - I would love a native client - but it is far unuseable - I frequently run 2 or 3 client instances (for my 3 paid for accounts) on my iMac. Its a bit more unstable on my Macbook air but still good enough for me to play for long periods on it.

if the mac ciient was discontinued I would have to stop playing completely (I refuse to dual boot my machines - too inconvenient)



Rafael Argus
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2012-06-16 00:50:27 UTC
Fabio Bittar wrote:
To CCP,

(I'll be writing to Apple later)

I'll keep this short. You should drop the Mac Client. Customers see Eve Online on Apple's website and immediately feel like it's a quality product for the Mac, but it is not. It's not even an OS X application.

Fabio.


There is no way that I can support this at all. I purchased my first Intel-based Mac the day the EVE Online Mac client shipped, and have been playing EVE Online on various Macs ever since, with hardly ever a problem. (Mostly, Captains Quarters poor performance, but that affects Windows too, and the portraits issue have been my largest complaints.) I now run it on four different Macs, going back to a 2006 24" iMac running OS 10.7, to a 2011 27" iMac running OS 10.6. And a 2009 MacBook Pro running either 10.6 or 10.7.

I've only had one or two problems with updating the client, and usually, relaunching the launcher fixes the problem the first time. (Well, it always has, actually. And I've only had that problem once, across the 3 Macs I commonly use for EVE.)

Could the performance of EVE Online for Macs be better? You bet. Would I prefer a native Mac OS X client? You bet.

I'm sorry that a number of people have had very poor experiences with EVE Online on their Macs, but that hasn't been my personal experience, nor the experiences of a number of other players I know who usually use Macs.

CCP, please keep improving the Mac EVE Online client, I like being able to play this game. However, I do wish you had a larger, or more consistent presence on the Macintosh forum. You do need to be better at communications.
Christa Larne
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2012-06-16 07:26:15 UTC
+1 to the continuation of the Mac client, despite its limitations. After 4 years as a Mac user I would rather stick needles in my eyes than go back to a Windows machine.
asariss
Heroes of Somewhere
#17 - 2012-06-21 21:50:33 UTC
I Would just like to add that i got back into eve after seeing the apple website screenshot of eve, i thought it must run AMAZINGLY well for apple to endorse it like that. We where all wrong. Ugh

My main machine is a 2011 MPB 17inch fully loaded with a Radeon 6750 8 gigs of ram and a hybrid HDD. Not to mention a core i7 with 4 cores and another 4 hyper threads. Even with nothing but eve open the experience is pitiful. Im forever afraid of a dc because the client is unable to handle the items being drawn on the screen. Its almost as if its trying to play the game on 1 core and the intel 3000 graphics card my macbook is fitted with for power savings. Cry

My oldest PC from 2005 with 1/8 the specs beats my 3000 dollar laptop playing eve.... This is a major issue and something that has plauged this client since i started playing in 2009 Oops

Get rid of the mac client if your unwilling to resolve these massive flaws. As a mac person that truly pains me to say. Straight
Psichotic
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#18 - 2012-06-23 09:44:19 UTC
You will experience just as many bugs running Eve on a Windows machine.

What a ridiculous thread.
Lephia Phoenix
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-06-23 18:53:59 UTC
Please CCP keep the Mac Port alive!

We know we are a minor Base but we are not the AppStore Zombies what most of the other Users call us.
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#20 - 2012-06-24 01:48:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Invisusira
Psichotic wrote:
You will experience just as many bugs running Eve on a Windows machine.

What a ridiculous thread.

Bugs? Sure, probably. Basic performance issues? Absolutely not.

Edit: not saying they should drop the Mac client or any such nonsense; just plainly stating that it is factually inferior to the Windows client.

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