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Jovians.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
#41 - 2012-06-12 06:40:30 UTC
Istvaan Shogaatsu wrote:
Here's a headscratcher for you Jovian theorists.

Remember the Jovian who blew himself up during a teleporter experiment of some kind, and required bits of him to be harvested from all over the galaxy?

What I'm wondering is... why would a dying race need teleportation so badly? Where are they going?

The Jove’s enemy do not use jump gates and warp drive to move around but teleportation. My guess is they are trying to get an understanding about how the technology works to develop a defence against it and use it themselves which is was the test was 10ish years ago. After all Jump drive jamming and gate jamming like we use is most likely ineffective against teleportation.
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
#42 - 2012-06-12 06:50:55 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
Not only that, but, where was his personality while his genetics were scattered all over New Eden? If the Jove are truly dying out, as some would postulate, is the Jovian disease technological in nature? We can assume that Jovian's are infomorphic..

Does the disease follow them into virtuality?

I have posted a lot of theories in the past how it could be a biological weapon. The Jove said the race they are at war with has a perfect understanding of the brain and genetics well in advance over the Jove. I have no proof it’s a biological weapon but with what we know it’s well within the possibility that infiltrators rigged the Jove genetic engineering team to cause the problem. Which in turned caused the collapse of the Jove empire and making the war much easier to deal with. But that is guess work with no facts to back it up.

The disease is in the mind and follows a Jove even after cloning so one would assume a cloned Jove copied into a data stream would still have the same problem copied into is digital self. As the Jove do not know where the problem lies I do not see how they could remove the bad data in the digital self. Again I cannot prove this but I see no reason why a infomorphic would be cured when the problem is copyed.
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
#43 - 2012-06-12 08:03:05 UTC
Eko'mo wrote:
Glad to see Pottsey posts again. On the old forums I literally read the sleepers thread daily, seemed like there was a new theory every day and that was generally considered to be amazing!

I'm interested in some of the sources for your Jovian observations, specifically combat weakness. If you look at the stats for their ships in game the Eidolon for example is no joke 8 Highs, Mid and Lows. Or are you saying they have the weapons but not the pilot skill to operate them?

Bit of both, I do admit in a few areas the Eidolon is good but if you gave it to any decent pilot it would tank and deal less DPS than most current day ships. Compare an Eidolon to say a Kronos. Half the weapons yet the Kronos would deal more DPS and tank more even with less slots and on top of that the Kronos would be more effective with some Electronic warfare. If it was a fight between an Eidolon or T2 ship my bets are on the T2 ship assuming pilot skills are the same and same access to modules between pilots.

Sorry I am short at time but there are two stories on the Battle of Vak’Atioth. If you do a combat analysis of the fight you would expect the Jove to have won with zero ship loss with the large amount of advantages they had

Instead the Jove lost 1/3 of the fleet. The fight was like sending a fleet into a typical lvl 4 mission with full Intel and brining in a mothership on your side, then losing 1/3 of your fleet. Sure you won and killed 100% of the enemy but that is not an impressive win.

Or to put it another how do we expect the Jove to stand up to a T2 pod piloted fleet with cap ships and no Intel when the Jove lose 1/3 of their fleet with the enemy fleet commander working for the Jove, full battle plans, time to prepare and knowing where the enemy fleet will strike, mother ship on their side with zero cap ships on the enemy side. Along with all the other advantages Jove had like the enemy having zero pod piloted ships and T1 or worse weapons and modules.

The way I see it if the Jove do that bad against such a weak enemy they stand no chance against any decent pod piloted fleet. Plus the few in game fights with Jove have the Jove as weak.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2012-06-12 11:19:24 UTC
Pottsey wrote:

The disease is in the mind and follows a Jove even after cloning so one would assume a cloned Jove copied into a data stream would still have the same problem copied into is digital self. As the Jove do not know where the problem lies I do not see how they could remove the bad data in the digital self. Again I cannot prove this but I see no reason why a infomorphic would be cured when the problem is copyed.


Which reminds me of how The Broker was infected by a disease that couldn't be cured, lurking in his data... I guess that's why some people theoritize that he may be jove. But in that case he wouldn't have been so surprised. So I'll say that he isn't jovian, but he maybe got the same disease.
Gen Fesslenski
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-06-12 11:36:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Gen Fesslenski
Pottsey wrote:
Roga Dracor wrote:
Not only that, but, where was his personality while his genetics were scattered all over New Eden? If the Jove are truly dying out, as some would postulate, is the Jovian disease technological in nature? We can assume that Jovian's are infomorphic..

Does the disease follow them into virtuality?

I have posted a lot of theories in the past how it could be a biological weapon. The Jove said the race they are at war with has a perfect understanding of the brain and genetics well in advance over the Jove. I have no proof it’s a biological weapon but with what we know it’s well within the possibility that infiltrators rigged the Jove genetic engineering team to cause the problem. Which in turned caused the collapse of the Jove empire and making the war much easier to deal with. But that is guess work with no facts to back it up.

The disease is in the mind and follows a Jove even after cloning so one would assume a cloned Jove copied into a data stream would still have the same problem copied into is digital self. As the Jove do not know where the problem lies I do not see how they could remove the bad data in the digital self. Again I cannot prove this but I see no reason why a infomorphic would be cured when the problem is copyed.


Not to get too involved in the story line but I would have to go one further for this to have actually worked. The Jovian Virus is Infomorphic in nature as has been stated, but it's also genetically written into every Jove now, and they are born and die with it. I suspect they don't even have records of when they actually first gained the virus and so its hard for them to backtrack and identify what caused it. Hence them giving pod tech to the Caldari and hoping they will naturally start playing with thier genetics when they are at the technological level for it. (giving the Jove an 'if all else fails then watch them evolve and see if and when they get it' plan)

What I postulate is that it is and infomorphic disease but its actual symptoms can be completely avoided if one is in an environment where it is unable to completely starve itself. Losing the will to live is all well and good but if you are in an environment where you cannot die then at the very least you can be studied and self study to see what the disease entails next as you are protected from its effects. When in a virtual environment your physical form can be drip fed and supported to make it live forever.
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
#46 - 2012-06-12 14:52:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Pottsey
KBTRIPSTA wrote:
When it comes to Templar One, I really wouldn't consider it 'canon' lore. It glosses over too much and assumes way too much that we as capsuleers could never find out. And isn't that what EVE is supposed to be about? Us as players, not the devs/CCP (I think it was a CCP venture?) telling us the exact story, which clashes with what we know and worked out in AJ? There is not a SINGLE piece of evidence that says 'these people were Jovian' in W-Space. The closest you get is that both races used polymer tech, but we use polymer tech, does that make us Jove now?

There was evidence in the old sleeper thread where theory’s on how there might have been Jovian offshoots from on the older now collapsed Jove empires. Some of the buildings are made up of Jove parts and when viewed from a bird’s eye view look just like Jove ships. There was also a lot of links between what the two races researched. Like the Jove lore had them researching Emergent Ideologies technology in the past but abandoned that line of thinking. wspace tech research is based around the same area’s further suggesting they are the old Jove. None of the evidence was enough by itself to prove they are old Jove but there was evidence.
Private Pineapple
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2012-06-12 16:00:06 UTC
This thread is very interesting to read, but I'm confused.

If you look at this page: http://community.eveonline.com/races/jove.asp

This quote in particular:

Quote:
But one fateful moment in their history made them lose this control for a few generations, and the results were catastrophic. By this time the Jovians had begun interfering with their basic instincts, curbing their aggression and sexual instincts and cultivating strange new ones instead. Since the Shrouded Days, as the Jovians call their momentary social eclipse, they have been trying to put the pieces together again, but their DNA-structure has in many ways been damaged beyond repair. The consequence is the dreaded Jovian Disease. Genetic in nature, it is not infectious to other races, but among Jovians it causes a depression so deep and serious that the victim loses the will to live, and death results within a few days or weeks.

Despite this, the Jovians escaped the chaos that followed the closure of EVE remarkably well. Within the space of only a few centuries they had recovered, and were once again running a hi-tech society. They settled in a number of systems and founded an empire lasting for nine millennia, but even if the Jovians are by far the most technologically advanced of the races of EVE, they have still not recovered the splendour of their first empire. The disease within them keeps them in a reproductive straightjacket, preventing them from increasing their numbers sufficiently for their current empire to flourish.


So I'm looking at these lines:

Quote:
Within the space of only a few centuries they had recovered


But how are they a dying race? This line is a bit ambiguous:

Quote:
The disease within them keeps them in a reproductive straightjacket, preventing them from increasing their numbers sufficiently for their current empire to flourish.


Doesn't "flourish" mean greatly increased population over the years? When I read the above line I took it as a "oh so they're at an equal population over time, so they arent dying...".

I have to be missing something.

.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#48 - 2012-06-12 16:17:22 UTC
The text you quoted is worded in a bit confusing way. What it means is that they recovered from the EVE closure is a very short time, then started having the great life... Until the Jove disease struck them, thousands of years later.

Since then, they seem to be barely mantaining their population thanks only to manipulated birth ratios, making just enough for the increased mortality in their files, and thus leaving them unable to reproduce at a speed higher than the one at which they die (needed to be able to expand).
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
#49 - 2012-06-12 19:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Pottsey
Qvar Dar'Zanar wrote:
The text you quoted is worded in a bit confusing way. What it means is that they recovered from the EVE closure is a very short time, then started having the great life... Until the Jove disease struck them, thousands of years later.

Since then, they seem to be barely mantaining their population thanks only to manipulated birth ratios, making just enough for the increased mortality in their files, and thus leaving them unable to reproduce at a speed higher than the one at which they die (needed to be able to expand).

That’s not 100% correct. The Elders bought down the fall of the first Jovian empire which lasted 9 millennia. Then after a long dark age just over 3000 years ago the 2nd Jove empire got united by Miko Bour. The Third Empire was founded half a millennium ago amidst the devastation of the Jovian Disease. During this fall the Jove left the Heaven constellation. To quote the game “Ever since the fall of the first empire the Jovian society have been in a slow, steady decline. Most blame the Jovian Disease for this and believe that the Jovians can only hope to turn the tide once a cure for the disease has been found.” Each new Jove empire has been smaller and less grander than the old empire.

That’s a common misconception about the wormhole as the Eve wormhole closing did not cause that many problems although it did not help matters at this point the big colonys could help the small ones survive. To quote the story

“the gates of EVE opened and operated perfectly for seven decades. Disaster struck once again. An unexplained phenomenon engulfed the Gates of EVE, rendering them inoperable. Restoration efforts proved futile due to the malevolent magnetic storm perpetually surrounding the gates. The results were swift and devastating. The fledgling settlements found themselves cut off from the old world, on which they were still heavily dependent.”

So it was not the wormhole shutting that caused problems but all the gates throughout kspace suddenly getting surrounded by malevolent magnetic storms 70 years after the wormhole shut. It was the lack of working gates that stoped the big colonys looking after the small ones that cuased all the problems.
Flair Tachyon
Toon Invasion Terror Squad
#50 - 2012-06-12 22:04:22 UTC
Pottsey wrote:
[quote=Qvar Dar'Zanar]“the gates of EVE opened and operated perfectly for seven decades. Disaster struck once again. An unexplained phenomenon engulfed the Gates of EVE, rendering them inoperable. Restoration efforts proved futile due to the malevolent magnetic storm perpetually surrounding the gates. The results were swift and devastating. The fledgling settlements found themselves cut off from the old world, on which they were still heavily dependent.”

So it was not the wormhole shutting that caused problems but all the gates throughout kspace suddenly getting surrounded by malevolent magnetic storms 70 years after the wormhole shut. It was the lack of working gates that stoped the big colonys looking after the small ones that cuased all the problems.


I believe you´re mistaken with the wording of "the gates of Eve". This probably refers to the twin gates (one on each side of the wormhole). Not to the smaller jumpgates.

Seventy years is an extremly short timespan to make colonies self sufficient if you consider that many planets needed to be terraformed first. It´s more likely that without acess to the advanced infrastructure of the terran sectors the colonies could not continue to help each other as more and more space/hightech equipment became unavailable due to lack of spare parts.

Just imagine a typical small village suddently be alone in the world. It´s surprising how many things suddenly become irreplaceble relics.
Qvar Dar'Zanar
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2012-06-12 22:51:41 UTC
It could be both, actually. They may be fooling us in one way or the other.
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
#52 - 2012-06-13 06:38:46 UTC
Flair Tachyon wrote:
[I believe you´re mistaken with the wording of "the gates of Eve". This probably refers to the twin gates (one on each side of the wormhole). Not to the smaller jumpgates.

You know over all the years I never thought of it like that. It could well mean that.
Gen Fesslenski
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-06-13 08:02:58 UTC
Where does it say 70 years. We know the WH to Earth is still surrounded by magnetic storms, so I guess the easiest was to tell whether it was just the WH or both WH and k-gates is to try and find out where it says that storms ended right?
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
#54 - 2012-06-13 11:25:02 UTC
Gen Fesslenski wrote:
Where does it say 70 years. We know the WH to Earth is still surrounded by magnetic storms, so I guess the easiest was to tell whether it was just the WH or both WH and k-gates is to try and find out where it says that storms ended right?

No idea on the new website which I hate with a passion same as the forums which I find a giant step back. The text used to be on the old website, I copied and pasted it from the manual but no idea where on the new website it got moved to.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#55 - 2012-06-13 18:02:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
It is the Eve Gates.. The storms are still present.. I think the Jovians built a ship capable of surviving the storms related to the Eve Wormhole and made the journey through it. Not having read any novels, I am going on second hand info, though..

It has been related to Macapher's prophecy about little brother making the sorrowful journey home and not being welcome..

And, yes, 70 years after the Gates were completed, they collapsed, destroying the New Eden system and tossing the colonies into chaos...

New Eden Timeline

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Dr Ted Kaper
Arondight
#56 - 2012-06-13 18:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Dr Ted Kaper
I dont think it would be reasonable for CCP to introduce Jove tech into the universe. They're technology (to scale with their ability to so easily hide and avoid other empires) would have to be incredibly strong. It would make anyone who has the tech too powerful. They can even prevent WH from exiting in their space. Turning to Sansha would also make sense to an advanced race with mental problems, they probably realized that if the Nation can undo basic instinct then they can redo instinct, and in return they provide Sansha with vastly improved technology... hence their ability to form wormholes.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#57 - 2012-06-13 19:28:44 UTC
Jovian technology is all over New Eden.. Capsule tech, boosters, T3... It is being introduced to us or rediscovered by us..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Dr Ted Kaper
Arondight
#58 - 2012-06-13 21:08:26 UTC
Roga Dracor wrote:
Jovian technology is all over New Eden.. Capsule tech, boosters, T3... It is being introduced to us or rediscovered by us..

I thought T3 was jovian-like because it originates from similar materials, but it is also the empires' reconstruction of jovian-like tech so not quite there yet. But i do see what you're saying so what i meant was direct jovian tech: cruisers, battlecruisers, and battleships. Currently only a shuttle and capsule are what we use, which are not intended for combat, mining, scanning, etc.
Roga Dracor
Gladiators of Rage
Fraternity.
#59 - 2012-06-13 21:50:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Roga Dracor
T3 is also modular and constructed with fullerenes, which mimics "Talocan" design, which might also tie them loosely to the Jovians, or vice versa..

Really what we are rediscovering is Terran tech.. But, semantics aside, the Jovians have seeded us with quite a bit of their hand me downs..

It's no use going back to yesterday, because I was a different person then, and it's a poor sort of memory that only works backward.
Alexzandvar Douglass
Motiveless Malignity
Deepwater Hooligans
#60 - 2012-06-21 11:45:33 UTC
They are probably afraid that if they open their borders the land grab by the major Alliances in EVE would be apocalyptic for their race.

The Ammarr could not come back when they killed them, Capsule Pilots don't have that problem. Not to mention many Alliances probably construct far more Capital Ships than the standard Empires due because the Alliances are not bound by arms treaties.
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