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Trading and hauling

Author
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#21 - 2012-06-08 15:47:40 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Andy DelGardo wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:

Active tank. Roll


This may look stupid, but do the EFT math before u comment. The time is not the problem, since the orca will not die in seconds. The alternative is simply to put a second adaptive resist on it, but u get more EHP out of the new XL-shield booster. I mean those new modules, there recycle and boost values are immense and fit just right in those 20 seconds till concorde arrive. So yes on an orca new overloaded ancility XL-shield booster is better than a second adaptive resist. Thats mainly because the orca already have a large shield amount and adding a extender wont do any good.


The 3rd Invuln ads 13k EHP, costing the attacker an extra Nado in 1shot ganks. (>.7)

The booster does rep 1.1k EHP/s so vs 2 shot ganks it's equivalent, and vs 3 shot crews (.5 w/ implants) it's better.

Remember, time to CONCORD isn't relevant for Alpha ganks, it's time between volleys.

An LSE II adds 18k EHP, so it's better than both.

Just realized the above is with Extenders (which you should use if you're running high value cargo rather than using it as a mini-freighter and actually using the cargohold)

Without Extenders (No Expanders either, so the EHP totals are off, but not the differences):
Booster: 244 EHP + 13k EHP over the 13s between volleys, total 244k-257k-270k EHP
LSEII: 255k EHP
Invuln: 252k EHP

Since 3 Volley ganks are rare, for the most part, the additional EHP in higher sec areas will be better for you than the 2k extra EHP in 2 Volley areas.

EDIT: Didn't remember to OH the hardeners (did OH the booster) in these numbers, so I'm not sure what that does to everything.


[Orca, Tank Haul]

Reinforced Bulkheads II
Damage Control II

EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II <> Large Shield Extender II <> X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

flakeys
Doomheim
#22 - 2012-06-08 15:49:41 UTC
Sasha Matu wrote:
That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out : What does it cost to gank a mammoth, orca or freighter Smile

The reason why I'm in a hauler in the first place is because I'm not a combat pilot, so got little experience in ganking. And was hoping for some rough numbers to keep in mind when filling my hold.



One of my chars got his kestrel ganked a few months back in perimeter.That's an EMPTY kestrel, people don't need a minimum value for ganks these days .Blink

We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.

Andy DelGardo
#23 - 2012-06-08 15:57:48 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


[Orca, Tank Haul]

Reinforced Bulkheads II
Damage Control II

EM Ward Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II <> Large Shield Extender II <> X-Large Ancillary Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II


mhh guess my math is off than, some Orca haulers also fit a AB, so u can half your warp off time. Will redo my math and see where the problem is, guess my boost to EHP conversion is wrong since Pyfa wont show the boosted amount as more EHP.
Johnny Frecko
Violence is the Answer
Wormhole Society
#24 - 2012-06-08 16:04:26 UTC
as said above concord reaction doesn't matter in alpha strikes.

You must consider that the stock cycle time for a 1400 howitzer is around 40 seconds.
Even with max skills you get 16 seconds. that means that at best *some* of the gankers will get a 2nd shot.
(unless CONCORD has been spawned elsewhere already, ensuring 2nd strikes for all!)

Going back to the original point, a buffer is normaly better because you can't mis-fire it, you can't forget about using it, you can't use it too soon(or too late), it's just there.

If the gankers know you got something awesome they'll just bring an extra nado
if the gankers are stupid they will normaly fail.

but doesn't it cover pretty much all the options?
i'd stick to buffer :S
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#25 - 2012-06-08 16:11:42 UTC
Johnny Frecko wrote:
as said above concord reaction doesn't matter in alpha strikes.

You must consider that the stock cycle time for a 1400 howitzer is around 40 seconds.
Even with max skills you get 16 seconds. that means that at best *some* of the gankers will get a 2nd shot.
(unless CONCORD has been spawned elsewhere already, ensuring 2nd strikes for all!)

Going back to the original point, a buffer is normaly better because you can't mis-fire it, you can't forget about using it, you can't use it too soon(or too late), it's just there.

If the gankers know you got something awesome they'll just bring an extra nado
if the gankers are stupid they will normaly fail.

but doesn't it cover pretty much all the options?
i'd stick to buffer :S


OH brings a Nado's 1400s down to 13.7s. That's enough to guarantee a second shot in .6 and under.

But yeah, Buffer's usually better (and don't turn on your hardeners automatically; pre-heat them and only cycle them as they start locking you.)

http://blog.beyondreality.se/TTK-CONCORD

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Andy DelGardo
#26 - 2012-06-08 16:12:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy DelGardo
@RubyPorto

Yeah seems my numbers are off, overheated u get 270k EHP with 3x Resist vs 266k EHP with the booster over 13 seconds. Mhh i was pretty sure i calculated this right...

Oki so buffer still wins, have to refit my Orca than.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#27 - 2012-06-08 16:18:08 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Andy DelGardo wrote:
@RubyPorto

Yeah seems my numbers are off, overheated u get 270k EHP with 3x Resist vs 260k EHP with the booster. Mhh i was pretty sure i calculated this right...

Oki so buffer still wins, have to refit my Orca than and thx for 10k more HP :)


TBQFH, you could fill the Corp Hangars with Titan BPOs, not put a single mod on the thing, name the thing "Full of Titan BPOs," and AP all around HS and be perfectly safe. So my Orca fit is thus:

Only 180k EHP (less with my alt's lack of skills), but warps fast when I'm active.

[Orca, Hisec Hauling]

Damage Control II
Reactor Control Unit II

Prototype 100MN MicroWarpdrive I
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]
[Empty Med slot]

[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Large Cargohold Optimization I
Large Cargohold Optimization I
Large Cargohold Optimization I

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Andy DelGardo
#28 - 2012-06-08 16:25:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy DelGardo
I just redid my math and maybe i added a blue pill into my old calculations, cant remember. The new numbers are 270k vs 269.7k, so just 0.3k difference, without any implant or pill. Still not worth it since this is over 13seconds, vs the same EHP as buffer.

I use a AB, since with good skills u also just warp of after the AB cycle finishes.

Maxxing my orca is more a psychological thing, if i get attacked some day, i can at least say i did all i possibly could do, without having any regrets regarding the fit :p
Cutout Man
Doomheim
#29 - 2012-06-08 16:27:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutout Man
Here's an excellent comparison of orca/freighter. Its from last summer, so adjust prices accordingly, but the ratios should be about the same.
Quote:
A pilot can get into a basic Charon (assuming optimized skills, no implants) in 23 days. A pilot can get into a basic Orca (assuming optimized skills; no implants; no skills for mods) in 43 days. The Orca plan includes Mining Barge V, which is a stepping stone for Exhumers and Rorquals but a useless skill for anyone but miners. The freighter skill tree can be used for industrials, transports, and jump freighters, all of which are useful to a trader. The EHP of the Orca and max cargo hold are support skill dependent, so you'll need those skills too.

An Orca, maxed out with 2 T2 cargo expanders and 2 T2 and 1 T1 cargo rigs can haul 100.9k m3 in its cargohold, 40k in the corp bay, and 400k in its ship maintenance bay (ships must be assembled though). The ore bay is only good for ore. The total unrestricted cargo capacity is 140.9k m3,but it's misleading because large volume items like a BS are too big for the corp bay. A maxed out Orca you could carry exactly 2 packaged BS. The ship maintenance bay cannot hold an assembled BS. It can hold 1 BC. At most it could only hold 20 assembled frigates--the equivalent of 50k m3 if those same frigates were packaged.

Today an Orca is selling for 435 million. A maxed out Orca would cost ~1 billion total (580 mil for the 2 T2 rigs and 18mil for the T1 = ~600 mill in rigs). Using all T1 rigs lowers the price to ~490 million (500mill or more with fittings) and it drops the max volume of the main cargo hold to ~92k m3. The total volume of unrestricted cargo space is ~133k m3 and 400k m3 for assembled ships. Using the 50k m3 of packaged frigates measure mentioned above, thats roughly 183k m3. We'll round to 200k m3 even though the ore bay can only be used for ore. The Orca cost is roughly 2500 ISK per m3 of cargo space (much more for unrestricted space).

Today a Charon is selling for 815 million. A max volume Charon carries ~981k m3. It does not use mods or rigs and the pilot doesn't need skills for them. It can be used to move assembled ships using courier contracts. It's cargo hold is unrestricted space but cannot hold assembled cans other than GFCs (this can be side stepped with courier contracts). It can hold two assembled BS of most types. It can hold 19 packaged BS. The Charon costs roughly 830 ISK per m3 of cargo space.

The Orca's total hauling capacity is less than 25% of the Charon; it has restrictions on types of cargo per hold; it's unrestricted space is not sufficient to carry large items. It takes twice as long to train. It's skill tree is only good for mining specialization. It's skill tree doesn't actually include standard haulers.

If you trained 1 Charon pilot and 1 Orca pilot and then ran the Orca and Charon at max capacity for one trip each, the freighter would cost 25% less per m3 hauled and it would have taken less time to train.
Andy DelGardo
#30 - 2012-06-08 16:32:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy DelGardo
The article simply ignores the MAIN point of hauling in a orca, NOTHING will drop from corp/ore/ship bays! This is one of the most unique and best anti pirate protection in the game, for hauling in hi-sec! It simply makes no sense to destroy an orca, since u will only get the crappy cargo-hold drops.

On a site note scanning a contract will reveal the container, while scanning a orca does not. So u can assume that the container has shiny loot, while u will never know if the orca u just destroyed had billions in his corp hangar or nothing. If the pilot starts crying and ranting in local, u may assume he had shiny stuff Lol

Also the article don't even compares EHP, having 250-332k EHP vs 140k EHP on a charon makes quite a difference on how many tornado's u have to gather at one place at the same time. The other point is that a orca with AB/MWD will warp of in about 13 seconds, while the freighter takes 40 seconds, so depending on how many jumps u do the Orca will outperform the freighter on this silly m3/isk ratio. They don't even consider that a freighter is normally not 100% full, so your average freight volume is more important than what u could theoretically haul max.
Cutout Man
Doomheim
#31 - 2012-06-08 19:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Cutout Man
Andy DelGardo wrote:
The article simply ignores the MAIN point of hauling in a orca, NOTHING will drop from corp/ore/ship bays! This is one of the most unique and best anti pirate protection in the game, for hauling in hi-sec! It simply makes no sense to destroy an orca, since u will only get the crappy cargo-hold drops.

On a site note scanning a contract will reveal the container, while scanning a orca does not. So u can assume that the container has shiny loot, while u will never know if the orca u just destroyed had billions in his corp hangar or nothing. If the pilot starts crying and ranting in local, u may assume he had shiny stuff Lol

Also the article don't even compares EHP, having 250-332k EHP vs 140k EHP on a charon makes quite a difference on how many tornado's u have to gather at one place at the same time. The other point is that a orca with AB/MWD will warp of in about 13 seconds, while the freighter takes 40 seconds, so depending on how many jumps u do the Orca will outperform the freighter on this silly m3/isk ratio. They don't even consider that a freighter is normally not 100% full, so your average freight volume is more important than what u could theoretically haul max.

First, it doesn't matter how much EHP you have, gankers can still alpha you. Rough numbers = 5 tornadoes does 110k unmodified damage in two cycles, 60k in 1 cycle, which means that assuming 1 cycle, 10 - 12 for freighter gank, 20 - 28 for an orca, which is not a lot of ships). It's worth mentioning, having been a part of both freighter and orca ganks, that when gankers see an orca moving down the pipe to/from hubs, they're not fooled. They know you have something valuable that you want to hide. You shouldn't assume they won't pop you because the drop won't be good. Sometimes its enough to deprive people of something you can't have.

Second, the total m3 of the corp bay is 10k. If everything you want to haul will fit in there, you'd be better off in a cloaky hauler. It's cheaper, easier to train for, and, even better than the bays of an orca, it can't be locked, never mind scanned or popped. It also works in losec/nosec, a substanially more difficult endeavor for an Orca. The ship bay is only useful for assembled ships, max 20 frigs, so unless you're hauling collectible ships or fitted T3s (max 4), the value of the ships isn't significant enough to encourage a gank in the first place (if you're moving expensive mods by fitting those ships, they'll still fit in a cloaky hauler). Also, the cloaky hauler is orders of magnitude faster.

Third, if you want something unscannable, double wrap a courier package (20k in fees). If you're hold is filled with other stuff, it's nearly impossible for someone to determine whether you've got a double wrap at all.

Finally, don't forget that the training times in that article don't account for modules or advanced nav skills; that is just to sit in one and jump gates. Also don't forget that if you're planning to use it for it's intended purpose, you cannot simultaneously haul and vice versa. Ultimately, your hauling is capped by the Orca's total m3. If you're trading in something large volume (battleships), bulky in useful quantities (minerals), or bulky in quantities necessary to make the trip worth it (t1/t2 modules, T1 frigs, etc), you're going to end up in a freighter anyway. As mentioned in the original article, no haulers are in the orca training plan. If you need haulers for something else, you're going to have to train them up anyway.

So, to recap, the orca's only advantage is that loot doesn't drop from those bays. Is that worth more training, time, and ISK? Esp. when you'll have to train for and buy a freighter anyway?

side note: the isk/m3 is the cost to the hauler to buy his ship and haul a single load; it is not a measure of ISK earned over time. Since the m3 is calculated based on max volumes, the equation doesn't change with different align times. You're also going to need better align times in your orca to make the 6 - 8 trips necessary to haul the equal of one freighter trip.
Andy DelGardo
#32 - 2012-06-08 21:12:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy DelGardo
First of the corp bay is 40k not 10k. Than the freighter has 2 resist holes, which means u just need to split your gang team in 2 groups one alpha its shield vs 0% EM resist and the other vs 10% exp resist. This means a freighter has actually close to 100-120k EHP, so we talk about 7-11 for a freighter, while u need 25-30 for a fully tanked orca. So u argue that a "sane" pirate will gladly loose 25 tornado's just for the lul's, without any reward and thats the same than loosing 7 tornado's while u get loot?

Lets simply forget any number games, but it makes a logistical difference to gather 7 players online, which can make isk at the same time and location, compared to getting 25 players online for no reward at all.

Basically yes if your stuff is simply too large so it wont fit on a orca u simply have no other choice to use a freighter, in any other situation u simply would never ever use a freighter over a orca.
Also keep in mind that u can even insta-lock a blockade runner with remote boosts, this depends on luck, but is actually possible.

How u value/rate the "no isk" case for the orca, is up to u.

Just to make this clear, for low value high volume goods u use a freighter no doubt about this, thats why they exists, but i would never haul billions worth of goods in a freighter if i can use a orca instead and ofc if a 60+ pirate corp wants u dead and know where u are atm, ofc u are dead no doubt about this Twisted


PS: Also u can use the MWD/cloak "trick" on a orca, but not on a freighter.
Tesal
#33 - 2012-06-09 23:41:31 UTC
Sasha Matu wrote:
That's exactly what I'm trying to figure out : What does it cost to gank a mammoth, orca or freighter Smile

The reason why I'm in a hauler in the first place is because I'm not a combat pilot, so got little experience in ganking. And was hoping for some rough numbers to keep in mind when filling my hold.


100m for an industrial
2b for a freighter
An Orca can use the corporate hangar which can't be scanned so you can carry whatever you want.
Trollin
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-06-10 05:34:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Trollin
you told us to exclude fitting but depending on how you fit an orca it can have ~60k ehp or 250k ehp

basically at the point you are at
you need to do what you can with what you have

and when you can afford better move up

generalized questions only beg for trolling.

We are our own worst enemy.

Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2012-06-10 18:25:13 UTC
Here's a good rule of thumb about what ships of yours will get suicide ganked. If your ship has mass someone out there is looking to gank it. It doesn't have to be profitable for someone to gank you for the 'lulz' . Admittedly the cheaper your ship the more likely you are to get ganked for the hell of it. But people do gank orcas just because they can, any isk made is just a bonus to the tears. I had someone shoot at an empty Interon Mark V in highsec.
Ji'kahr
1st Kameiras Brigade
#36 - 2012-06-12 14:24:13 UTC
If you are worried about getting ganked, you can always carry a little less and train to fly a 'Battle Mammoth'.

http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/51447-Battle-Mammoth-A-Real-Man-039-s-Tank.html

If the gankers are smart, they will scan your ship fitting first, realize you are bait, and leave you alone. They are looking for easy prey. Some people that fly battle mammoths are looking to be the wolf in sheep's clothing that ganks high sec miners, so the gankers might just leave you alone.

If you are lucky, your battle mammoth might be a match for your gankers. When they engage you, just double web, scram and neut them until Concord arrives to finish them off. Now, bask in the warm shivery feeling of a killmail.

If you don't want to get into high-sec combat at all, ever...

-you might consider putting warp core stabilizers in some or all your low slots, or warp core stabs and nano-stabs to help with aligning time. Warp core stabs means you can't be warp scrambled, so you can get away.

-Put a 10mn afterburner in one of the mid slots. If you run into a gate camp, reselect the gate you just came through and burn back to gate. Kind of a last ditch effort, but you might make it.

-Put some neuts (power neutralizers) in the two high slots, which can drain the capacitor of a ship that you target. Stagger them for better effect.

-Safespots: There are some safespots you can make that would help you.

a) One of these is 'insta-undock'. At places where you frequent (such as trade hubs), get into a fast ship and undock. When you get to about 1000 km from the station, make a bookmark with your 'people and places'. Name this 'Insta-undock'.

b) Do the same for jump gates, especially choke points such as Niarja (on the way from Jita to Amarr). Take a fast ship, fly about 1000 km in a strait line from the gate, make a bookmark and call it 'Insta-warp'.

Now, if you are in a position where you hear the 'boop boop boop' sound of someone targeting you, or see the flashing red box of a silent targeter, or whenever you feel threatened, just right click in space and all your bookmarks are there. Warp to one, and you are free and clear.

Also, just before downtime seems like the safest time to be hauling stuff around.

Also, keep your hauler in an NPC corpo
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