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Cruise or Torp Tech 2 Level 4 Missions
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Mearog Cruinniu
Doltvragon Industries
#1 - 2012-06-08 13:31:38 UTC
Good morning,

I was hoping that someone could tell me if I could use Torpedo instead of cruise missiles on level four missions? I would like to have the training for tech 2 torps so I can better fit a stealth bomber at the same time bring more firepower to level 4 missions. Also, what are the downsides to using torpedo's instead of cruise missiles?
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#2 - 2012-06-08 16:24:07 UTC
Mearog Cruinniu wrote:
Also, what are the downsides to using torpedo's instead of cruise missiles?


Do you want the short list, or the long?

Range.
Damage application.
Range.
Fitting requirements (try coming up with a viable torp Raven for starters)
Damage application.

Maybe range isn't as much of a problem on SBs (which get huge range bonuses), but it is with other ships.
Spineker
#3 - 2012-06-08 17:37:23 UTC
Mearog Cruinniu wrote:
Good morning,

I was hoping that someone could tell me if I could use Torpedo instead of cruise missiles on level four missions? I would like to have the training for tech 2 torps so I can better fit a stealth bomber at the same time bring more firepower to level 4 missions. Also, what are the downsides to using torpedo's instead of cruise missiles?



If you are running Caldari missions without T2 Jave Torps there are going to be missions you can not complete because some ships will be out of your range. Even with Jave Torps you need good support skills to reach out to the near 60km range.

Torps if you are in range are devastating against big fat rats. Smaller rats of course are a pain in the ass.

Golem is a fantastic Torp Ship with the correct skills. Going to need drones with either weapon system
Lipbite
Express Hauler
#4 - 2012-06-08 18:01:00 UTC
I have Rattler and torps wasn't used like 2/3 of time despite ship range bonus. After drone modules implementation torps are useless like 100% of time.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#5 - 2012-06-08 18:35:17 UTC
Torps are fine against BSs -- if you can double paint and web each of them and make sure they are in range all while being able to tank after using all those mids on damage application. And even then they'll still struggle against anything smaller.

If you want to play around, here's a spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhzdGHNl5YBQdEJkRWxSVzg2bzA1RXlpOXptMjc3S0E

Pull NPC info from Chruker's site:

http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_ships.php?supergroup=9&return_to=

The top damage line is without ewar effects, the second is with. You can add ewar across the middle; make sure you do it from the first slot to the last to account for stacking penalties (and because I'm too lazy to make the UI any prettier at the moment).

Bottom line: 921 DPS from CN torps becomes 339 without ewar. With just two painters it gets up to 597. And now your Raven has four mids left.

At the same time, a Raven with cruise doing 520 DPS (CN missiles again) will apply all of its damage without a painter to that same battleship and get 325 against a cruiser with one painter (where the torps are putting down 267 DPS with two painters).

And again, that's all before you realize the torps are only going ~28km.
Spineker
#6 - 2012-06-08 22:51:46 UTC
Bottom line after all this talk. If I could do over I would rather put all those points from torps into something else. I would not train them again even though my Golem was badass until I finally tried a tengu. Sadly never went back I would still use the Golem sometimes but slowly but surely until never used Golem. Have Marauder V also Straight
Klymer
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2012-06-09 00:27:21 UTC
The only reason I trained T2 torps was for my stealth bomber.


Dato Koppla
Spaghetti Militia
#8 - 2012-06-09 00:51:19 UTC
Torps in L4s only work on Golems, even then not very well. Stick to a cruise CNR.
Kalli Brixzat
#9 - 2012-06-10 04:08:56 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
Stick to a cruise CNR.


Pretty much that. For mission ships using missiles, nothing does it better
drdxie
#10 - 2012-06-10 08:58:29 UTC
As said above , train for T2 cruise. To fit T2 torps on a bomber with a bomb launcher, BCS's and any form of speed mod and tackle/ewar is not easy. I can use T2 torps, but never fit them on my bomber, but I am in null and use teh bombs. It may be different if you not planing on fitting a bomb launcher

Caldari Loving needed.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1608277&#post1608277
barvo
The Order Of Entropy
#11 - 2012-06-10 12:11:12 UTC
Kalli Brixzat wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Stick to a cruise CNR.


Pretty much that. For mission ships using missiles, nothing does it better


At risk of derailing this, I've been kind of in and out of missions over the years but I've always believed that nothing did it better, full stop, than a cruise CNR. Is there something else out there for missions that's better now? Paladin maybe? I always had issues with turret BS's in missions, with range/tracking balance seemingly impossible to get right (for me at least).
Exploited Engineer
Creatively Applied Violence Inc.
#12 - 2012-06-10 12:36:57 UTC
barvo wrote:
[quote=Kalli Brixzat]At risk of derailing this, I've been kind of in and out of missions over the years but I've always believed that nothing did it better, full stop, than a cruise CNR. Is there something else out there for missions that's better now? Paladin maybe?


Machariel
Vargur
Tengu
Nightmare (against Sansha/Blood)
barvo
The Order Of Entropy
#13 - 2012-06-10 12:54:30 UTC
Hmm - thanks.
Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-06-10 19:56:18 UTC
Exploited Engineer wrote:
barvo wrote:
[quote=Kalli Brixzat]At risk of derailing this, I've been kind of in and out of missions over the years but I've always believed that nothing did it better, full stop, than a cruise CNR. Is there something else out there for missions that's better now? Paladin maybe?


Machariel
Vargur
Tengu
Nightmare (against Sansha/Blood)


Neither of those is better by default, they should be considered sidegrades, as they all have their weaknesses and advantages. I'd consider Mach, Tengu and CNR about equal.

The main advantage of the caldari missile line is that you have a ship for everything - a great tank, a great explorer, a badass mission runner, even a very capable Goonblob ship - and that's just the Drake! ;) The downside to this is, missiles are their own school - if you want to reroll an amarr or a winmatar ship, you'll need to learn all the support skills from scratch - so for new pilots, training caldari missile boats, then going into a Vargur or Machariel is a royal pain in the behind.

But to stay on topic and answer the OP's question: paper dps isn't everything. While torpedoes look great in EFT, actually using them is a pain. Unless you're planing to fly a stealth bomber, you'll be better off with Cruise or Heavy Missiles, depending on what you want to do.
Kalli Brixzat
#15 - 2012-06-11 18:04:27 UTC
barvo wrote:
Kalli Brixzat wrote:
Dato Koppla wrote:
Stick to a cruise CNR.


Pretty much that. For mission ships using missiles, nothing does it better


At risk of derailing this, I've been kind of in and out of missions over the years but I've always believed that nothing did it better, full stop, than a cruise CNR. Is there something else out there for missions that's better now? Paladin maybe? I always had issues with turret BS's in missions, with range/tracking balance seemingly impossible to get right (for me at least).


For a missile boat mission ship, the CNR and Tengu are probably going to give you your best results. Yes, the Mach and Vargur with proper skills and mods will give you fast completion times, but those aren't missile boats.
drdxie
#16 - 2012-06-11 20:46:15 UTC
Its also going to depend on your play style. if you like to be constantly piloting your ship to get the best applied dps, then the mach is good, never used a vargur so no idea how well it works. The mach requires a lot of piloting. I prefer the NM with beams for em weak and tengu for everything else.

Caldari Loving needed.. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1608277&#post1608277
Kalli Brixzat
#17 - 2012-06-11 20:58:46 UTC
drdxie wrote:
tengu for everything


I agree... Twisted
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-06-12 03:40:26 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:

I'd consider Mach, Tengu and CNR about equal.


Shocked



Aaa man thanks for the morning laugh :D
Spineker
#19 - 2012-06-12 18:11:46 UTC
Klymer wrote:
The only reason I trained T2 torps was for my stealth bomber.





Ahh true yes and SB can be used for poaching in the outback 0.0 sov space Smile
Euripedies
Hot Droppin Cherry Poppers
#20 - 2012-06-23 03:47:45 UTC
T2 torps and Covops V along with all the other missiles skills of course, makes for a badass stealth bomber. I cant imagine using for a lvl 4 though, takes forever to kill the frigs. and one lucky shot from a Battlecruiser and down you go. get webbed once and you're done I think. Anyway, for doing lvl 4 faction war missions definately yes. The stealth bomber is the killer in the shadows, zooming thru low sec, who cares about ships on gates. let them try to target me. Im in a friggin frigate. But hi sec lvl 4's, no, too much effort when you could just get a raven, fit with cruise missiles, orbit at 60 km and fling cruise missiles at everything til it stops moving. use your warriour II's to kill annoying frigates.