Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Sounds strange, since you've added in no real counter except saying others have pointed out faults in the system I described.

Every point you guys have pointed to have been countered by me, if you don't like the reasoning, then I ask if you have a better idea.

As for applying real life mechanics and game play, Eve in its conception is meant to mirror real world dynamics. Banking is merely one facet of the issue.

If you really believe money laundering is the only outcome of this system, then why even make a point in the first place. Seems like you are scared of adding this dynamic for the ramifications it could mean.

A dedicated banking system is something that players have to put real time into, I am not saying it will occur only through CCP. You need a player base to move towards integrating it and putting in real time into its maintenance.

Unlike the other half thought out ideas, mine happens to be a hollistic approach that relies on both developer and player interaction to make it successful.

Hulkageddon, drone poop, mineral inflation. Goonswarm actively encouraging the continuation of hulkageddon with moon mining abuse.

Trust me, Eve's economy is heading the same way if PvPers have their way with the sandbox.. erm.. i mean pvp fortbox.

Wait, you want a system which forces me to give my iskies to somebody else? In EvE - Online? ..srsly?

Don't know what you're smoking, but please gimme a share, I want to try it myself.

Firstly, inflation is only a problem if money is secure the entire time. If a bank fails due to the scams that are running rampant, then in essence the isk is destroyed up to the insurance value for the account. In this system, each bank account, on further thinking, should be able to purchase additional monthly protection toward a certain level of protection with a set maximum level of protection. If you don't come online enough, then fine, insurance charges will eat up a portion of your isks if you bought it. If you don't buy insurance, then if the bank fails, you lose all the money deposited within it, minus the CCP small account guarantee. That's how modern banks work as you know for larger depositors, they can buy additional insurance beyond FDIC protection limits.

It is also true for how the ship insurance system is supposed to work; although good industrialists have been able to make some profits by scamming it in the past, which was mostly fixed.

In this way, I have created a new isk sink to offset the interest faucet, if players have to buy insurance to protect their accounts and isk. They can get interests to offset as well if the bank are running effectively and even make a goodl deal of profit if the banks are able to have higher interest than costs of insurance, but in the end, it breaks up your entire notion of inflation.

CCP can set up the insurance costs based on how much is being insured. Meaning NPC banks will usually costs you money to deposit, while being safer. An NPC bank can go belly up as well due to in-game issues, i.e. faction warfare and the new rules of engagement that CCP has proposed for the upcoming patch or simply put CCP wants to create deflation.

I know you might say, "wait won't this mean I can borrow money, default, then play the old insurance stealing game like old times with ships again?"

Not exactly, as insurance on accounts beyond the CCP minimum will have to have a time limit before being active, like 6 months. So even if you buy insurance for 1 billion isk in your own bank, then you collapse it immediately, you won't get more than the minimum CCP protection and lose a majority of your money. For 6 months, if you attempt this scam, I can tell you that regular PvE and industrialist can make that amount easily in building ships, running complexes, and doing wormhole sleepers. Even if you collapse the bank for insurance, you won't be optimizing your isk/time rate like the others.

This idea favors the industrialists and PvE, while penalizing scammers.

You won't have inflation if money supply can be shocked internally into deflation by people.

Second, The scamming issue is going to be hard one to chew, but I'll bite.

Each bank needs to have a set minimum amount of depositors and they need to have at least been active for 1 year in order to be set up. Corporations right now can be set up by one person or one person + alts. You might still be able to use a dozen alts, but if I set the minimum to 20 depositors, then you will need to buy atleast 20 plexes over 12 months before you can even start a bank (You really have that many billions of isk lying around, to run a scam). Time and resources will be your worst enemy, unless you are one of the richer Eve player alliances, who can afford to waste that much money.

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Are any of these beyond CCP to create or control? No, they are well within the powers to regulate. Setting up a minimum amount of players to incorporate has been something that should have been done years ago, but CCP did not do. Keeping an insurance system in place with monthly costs is well within CCP's control and will offset inflation, unless the bankers are smart with their investment and actually loan money to trusted players with good collateral and repayments. Then, you make money with your deposits in a player owned bank, if not then, you lose money in an NPC bank at the whim of CCP's in game lore, like a war between the Gallente and Amarr for instance driving up insurance values and causing you to lose money unless you invest it into the market to help the war effort (Tie in to faction warfare issues, possible).

This system rewards people who need money, wants to make money, and who wants to get items faster.

There is no fair and perfect capitalist system, just as any other economic model. However, it is better to open the door for people to try to make it work rather than stand and be scared of what it might unleash.

This system needs both sides to make it work, people with an eye to invest money and CCP to set up rules to get it there.

You seem to like my isk-collateral system at least, so why not move one step further and go for full Banking system.

Probably won't, because there are no fail safes in the system, nor any prohibitions at the moment to counter an easy scam, where there is not even insurance against what I had said earlier.

Your point completely fails to take in the facts that insurance is the fundamental barrier that prevented the US banks from completely defaulting on accounts after the 2007-8 financial crisis or else everyone's deposits would have been taken.

Aside from the obvious difference between my model for eve and the US model, my regulations are simple and straight forward, the tax that you fail to see is inherent in the Insurance system and something modern economists have argued for against "static" currency sitting bank reserves today, i.e. a tax on static funds. Right now in the real world major corporations have several trillion dollars in reserve sitting as static cash, more than the paltry US government stimulus could ever muster under President Obama's failed attempts to recover.

Basically, if you read economic papers, the concept is a tax on capital reserves that are not being used for any productive value.

In eve, CCP can establish a permanent insurance system deducting out isk on bank accounts to reduce the money supply, while providing a service for how much you are protecting that money against theft. In this way, I am keeping "interest isk faucet" as you call it offset against the insurance costs at NPC banks, which would be safer than player owned banks nonetheless.

Only private banks can have higher interest returns than insurance costs; thus implementing my concept of a higher investment within Eve and a creation of more potential for players.

As for money disappearing, I have already explained the insurance and the difference between it and what is lost on an individual. As for the scammer's cash, they cannot steal too much before they are discovered with the other areas I outlined on transparency using API data adjustment from CCP (very doable if you have ever been charge of separate corp wallets) and Reserve requirement in any case.

Don't forget in all of this, I have a reserve requirement is in effect, if a bank fails due to loans, it won't be due to 1 loan or 100 loans, you will need to deplete the bank over a period of months before depositors figure what you are doing due to the deposit reserve that would be set up in my system aka the reason why you would never be able to take out 100 billion isk for 1 Tritanium. You can invest 100K for 1 Trit until you hit 1 billion isk outstanding, then you won't be able to borrow anymore. Every bank in the world has a maximum loan reserve rate, so I don't see why this formula will not work. Scammers are notoriously short sighted. Even if they can scam a few billion, they'll be not be able to do it as long as capital requirement exists.

That disproves you theory.

As for why we need new rules now and why there are no new banks start ups-

Can I ask you a few questions on why it is not possible now:

1. How can you view what is in the Bank's depository accounts?

2. Where can I get a list of the Corporation's founding members?

3. What type of insurance is covering these deposits?

4. What assets are present inside the Banking Corp and what have they invested or bought?

Even in real world businesses, you would get regular 10-K filings and know what the companies have on their books to investors, you would have a list of corporate directors and histories, an insurance on your accounts, and even something as simple as a total of your account balances.

At the moment, Eve has none of that, so how can you say that you can start a bank right now in Eve and not be tempted to cheat people out of their money.

You're way is based on an outdated concept that does not work in Eve, my way is imperfect, but at least I have ways to secure all the problems, even if certain leaders are crooks.

PS: Also, my limitation idea on insurance prevents your issue, if you haven't noticed isk/time ratio, a PvE or industrialist will always make more money than a scammer after the time has passed and their plexes are paid for, making robbing a bank impossible.

Look back up for my reply to your counter, Insurance is what economists have been pining for in the world for the last few years to get rid of excess static cash savings. That will deflate the eve economy, if money supply without investment is being pushed down after it hits a certain point to insure the accounts against bank failures versus interest payouts.

I also countered you on the theft thing again, read the top, a Capital Reserve Policy prevents scamming everyone's money.

Who set's the insurance premiums? Are you going back to "CCP to hire an insurance company to manage Virtual Game economy" argument again? Or you think that periodic tuning by the 1 CCP economist is sufficient? How would you determine that 'too much floating money is not getting invested?' when you have no equity/bond market? EVE is a SPOT commodity only economy you know. No futures, no options, no OTC, no exchanges.

We're talking in circles:

I don't think currently an Eve bank can be created as there is no insurance on accounts to give a minimum level of protection against scams.

You don't think my insurance system can work sufficiently as CCP should not be the one determining the rates (Excuse me, but isn't that a non-real world example of how Eve can be better than the world economy, because we can play with Deus Ex Machina mechanics). Also, doesn't an insurance inspired taxation system offset the risk of interest based isk faucets. It gives CCP more flexibility over monetary policy.

You have also not answered any of my questions about how the banks of Eve currently can work without transparency, without insurance, without listings of members, and without holding records. Your entire idea is much more flawed than what I have conceived, as players don't have any visible knowledge of what is in their hands or in their banks.

Also, why can't eve premium rates be set against each player's balance as intended by modern economist trying to end the problem of an economy with cash reserve fever like Eve? Won't it give the player's incentive to invest their money rather than sit there and lose it over time to insurance charges, which can be used to offset the losses for banks.

Also, when you hit the capital requirement, your bank won't automatically default until it hits a point, when there is no operating cash or reserve. In this case, you can't make a run for the banks, even if the you had 100 goons depositing, then taking it all out without depositors noticing. It's why transparency is so important and why currently any Bank in Eve is doomed if scammers are running it.

I don't think you can have a legitimate banking corp in eve without rules and regulations, along with insurance to maintain that they work.

NPC Banks are not meant to be good places to put your money, they are merely for starting out, they won't be able to loan out money like a player bank, small loans perhaps not exceeding 50 million for your first ships or miners, nothing more.

I am not advocating an NPC bank only in high sec thing, player owned banks will exist in high, low, and null sec.

You're advocating this point:



Come on, the current banking model is deeply flawed and prone to scams constantly. Your weren't advocating for my points until I went into details on why they worked.

Currently without the things I listed, no bank in Eve is secure or even remotely worth depositing into. You need to have adjustment from Corporate incorporation, API fixes, and an insurance system to make this worthwhile for everyone, including CCP in their fight against inflation.

We have debated as much as we could,

Three game changes are needed in my view beyond api

1. Insurance is absolutely necessary, along with its costs acting as an isk sink to counter interest accumulation.

2. New incorporation and operating rules for banking corps, reserve requirement is a definite.

3. The New isk collateral system that you seem to agree with me on in practice of player owned banks.

Npc banks are optional, they were meant mostly for relatively younger players to get enough money for their first drakes or hulks, not the financing of Pos or other big ticket items.