These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
Previous page12
 

Why T2 laser charges have so bad tracking?

Author
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#21 - 2012-06-08 22:23:57 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
Comparatively, lasers are the worse tracking turret. Make a petition to CCP and ask them why.

That would be an absolute waste of time. They're the worst tracking turret because they give the best tradeoff between optimal range and damage. Simply put they have the best damage projection of any turret.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#22 - 2012-06-09 19:45:04 UTC
Meditril wrote:

No need to do any rework, beam lasers are good as they are. Just check the facts in a comparision of a Beam Laser with an similar Arty:

Medium Beam Laser II:
Tracking Speed: 0.1
Optimal Range: 12 km
Fall Off: 4 km

280mm Howitzer Artillery II:
Tracking Speed: 0.066 (this is more than 30% less then the Beam laser!)
Optimal Range: 12 km
Fall Off: 8.75 km

As you can see the Artillary is even subpar to the Beam laser with regards to tracking. Arty can only gain a little bit because of high fall off. But fighting in fall off reduces your damage significantly. Especially if you take into account that lasors generally have more dps than projectiles this is a more than fair trade. So stop whining.


Vanilla stats on a weapon without even ammo loaded is not the way to look at them. Especially since tracking matters less, the longer the range and that falloff is a non-linear effect. We could do an analysis of these weapons on specific ships with the right ammo loaded, their engagement envelope, may even do some math. But it wouldn't end the discussion.

Let me ask this question:
While we all know the arty thrasher and the arty wolf are common and competitive fits, can you give one common and/or competitive ship/fit that involves the medium beam laser II?
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#23 - 2012-06-09 19:54:18 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
Meditril wrote:

No need to do any rework, beam lasers are good as they are. Just check the facts in a comparision of a Beam Laser with an similar Arty:

Medium Beam Laser II:
Tracking Speed: 0.1
Optimal Range: 12 km
Fall Off: 4 km

280mm Howitzer Artillery II:
Tracking Speed: 0.066 (this is more than 30% less then the Beam laser!)
Optimal Range: 12 km
Fall Off: 8.75 km

As you can see the Artillary is even subpar to the Beam laser with regards to tracking. Arty can only gain a little bit because of high fall off. But fighting in fall off reduces your damage significantly. Especially if you take into account that lasors generally have more dps than projectiles this is a more than fair trade. So stop whining.


Vanilla stats on a weapon without even ammo loaded is not the way to look at them. Especially since tracking matters less, the longer the range and that falloff is a non-linear effect. We could do an analysis of these weapons on specific ships with the right ammo loaded, their engagement envelope, may even do some math. But it wouldn't end the discussion.

Let me ask this question:
While we all know the arty thrasher and the arty wolf are common and competitive fits, can you give one common and/or competitive ship/fit that involves the medium beam laser II?



Because Small Pulse does better Deeps than Small Arty and Scorch has just as good or better range.
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#24 - 2012-06-09 22:57:33 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Because Small Pulse does better Deeps than Small Arty and Scorch has just as good or better range.


Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch: 11.5+2.5

280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor: 27+11
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II: 21.7+11

MPL with 50% range bonus: 16.8+2.5 (w/ 2*locus rigs: 21.9+2.5)
Izziee
University of Izziee
#25 - 2012-06-09 23:12:34 UTC
Cardano Firesnake wrote:
If you compare Lasers with Hybrid and Projectiles do you find them balanced?
I saw that lasers have great great optimal, so the DPS will be 100% at Mid range good compared to a projectile weapon that optimal is bad. But the Projectiles Weapon have more DPS, Mores Tracking, and do not need Power to shoot. So In Short Range lasers seems to be poor, if I well understood



I have both T2 systems. With projects you have your damage in falloff mainly, low alpha, ammo cost (Can get expensive!) and 10 second reload time.

The plus sides is that it's high dps, decent range (but again, fall off) decent RoF, decent tracking and a nice selection of ammo types.

Lasers (Pulse) are mid range, better alpha but less selectable damage, slower RoF, still decent DPS though, instant reload, and good range working in opitmal while not as good tracking. Being able to instantly swap from conflag to scorch and visa versa is a lot better than swapping from barrage to hail and visa versa.

Projectiles are very decent, but so are lasers, both have their ups and downs, that's what I call balance. You'd be hard pressed to have an exact balance unless you'd make them identical, then there wouldn't be any point in them except for looks, and kind of defeats the point.

It's not as if you can't train both either.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#26 - 2012-06-09 23:26:57 UTC
Maybe it's time I updated these old graphs

Anyway, the historical reason why lasers had “bad” tracking was that they had range instead, and didn't particularly need good tracking at that range to apply their damage.
Grimpak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2012-06-10 10:22:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Grimpak
Kuehnelt wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Because Small Pulse does better Deeps than Small Arty and Scorch has just as good or better range.


Medium Pulse Laser II, Scorch: 11.5+2.5

280mm Howitzer Artillery II, Tremor: 27+11
250mm Light Artillery Cannon II: 21.7+11

MPL with 50% range bonus: 16.8+2.5 (w/ 2*locus rigs: 21.9+2.5)



tbh the issue here is that people are comparing LR guns with SR guns here.


let's put this in a simpler way:

lasers track better on the LR bracket, while they track the worse on the SR bracket.
this is because LR lasers have the shortest maximum operability range and have the longest peak operability range on SR.

sure you can touch stuff with AC's the same way as you can do with pulses, but a 200mm AC will never outdamage a pulse at its (pulse) optimal because of falloff mechanics.



long story short: SR lasers are actually MR, and they are balanced around that. scorch just over-emphasises this to a point that people might think it's overpowered.

[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]

[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right

Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2012-06-10 11:15:50 UTC
Grimpak wrote:


let's put this in a simpler way:

lasers track better on the LR bracket, while they track the worse on the SR bracket.
this is because LR lasers have the shortest maximum operability range and have the longest peak operability range on SR.

sure you can touch stuff with AC's the same way as you can do with pulses, but a 200mm AC will never outdamage a pulse at its (pulse) optimal because of falloff mechanics.

long story short: SR lasers are actually MR, and they are balanced around that. scorch just over-emphasises this to a point that people might think it's overpowered.


For PvP, LR tracking doesn't matter and alpha is king.

For SR, both range and tracking matter. The laser might be top dps at its optimal but once the laser is in falloff, it dps drops faster than that of the AC. Inside optimal, the laser poor tracking will cause it's damage to drop off faster than that of the AC aswell. The advantage will go to the player that gets to decide range.

I'm still waiting for a viable medium beam laser II fit.

long story short: scorch makes SR lasers MR, which gives them a competitive edge. Apart from scorch, lasers are very subpar.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2012-06-10 19:16:23 UTC
Lunkwill Khashour wrote:
I'm still waiting for a viable medium beam laser II fit.
Good luck.
Pretty much all medium long-range turrets are awful, with some niche appeal for dedicated sniping ships (Zealot, Muninn, Eaglol…).

You can squeeze some alpha out of the 720s with a 'cane, but meh…
The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-06-10 22:46:44 UTC
Lasers require more thought into getting a good shot. A good shot is 'wrecking hit' good. Railguns can hit surprisingly well too.

That said, 'Motion Prediction V' is a turnkey skill, and manually piloting to drop transversal can be very rewarding. Use Scorch to soften them up as they approach so when they are on top of you, things are a bit more in your favour. If you haven't managed to get your guns on until short range you'll have a hard time turning it around.
Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2012-06-10 23:08:07 UTC
I"m working on Motion Prediction V now and was wondering, what is a good number for tracking speed to aim for?
Liam Mirren
#32 - 2012-06-10 23:10:39 UTC
Depends the laser type you fitted, the situation, PVE or PVP, what you're shooting, distance, angular and a whole lot of other stuff.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

The VC's
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2012-06-10 23:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: The VC's
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
I"m working on Motion Prediction V now and was wondering, what is a good number for tracking speed to aim for?


It really depends on what you are flying. I mostly fly frigates and I've found at close range 0.37-0.40 to be the minimum. At Scorch ranges hit quality starts dropping at less than 0.2.


It really does depend, on your ship and flying style. Other pilots may say something different. Put the 'angular velocity' column in your overview and resize it to 2 decimal places. Get your combat log up and try your guns out on some belt rats or a mate. It's worth experimenting with.


Example. A Tracing Enhancer makes more of a difference than a Heat Sink on a Punisher shooting Gatling Pulses in a brawl. (I've found)
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-06-11 06:52:16 UTC
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
I"m working on Motion Prediction V now and was wondering, what is a good number for tracking speed to aim for?


When flying Amarr in brawls, lowering your transversal and pulling range should always be your goal. IMHO manual piloting is key, just do 'something' since everything is better than fying in circles.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#35 - 2012-06-11 22:29:13 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Comparatively, lasers are the worse tracking turret. Make a petition to CCP and ask them why.

That would be an absolute waste of time. They're the worst tracking turret because they give the best tradeoff between optimal range and damage. Simply put they have the best damage projection of any turret.


I was being a precocious douche and atempting to be cute. I suppose that didn't come across well. I'll try harder next time.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#36 - 2012-06-11 23:37:28 UTC
Major Killz wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Major Killz wrote:
Comparatively, lasers are the worse tracking turret. Make a petition to CCP and ask them why.

That would be an absolute waste of time. They're the worst tracking turret because they give the best tradeoff between optimal range and damage. Simply put they have the best damage projection of any turret.


I was being a precocious douche and atempting to be cute.


Pretty much sums up the female half of the human race.
Previous page12