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Are faction missiles worth it for lvl4s?
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Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#21 - 2011-10-06 05:19:29 UTC
Capn Orgasmo wrote:
Nothing beats t2 launchers and t2 missiles, if you are flying a tengu with t1 launchers then you are doing something very wrong.


As long as you mean DPS on paper and not actual mission completion time, you are right.

Don't try to teach the theory class if you haven't done the lab.

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#22 - 2011-10-06 05:27:55 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
But the OP asked if they were worth it. This is where we disagree. So let's look at some numbers. CN Heavy missile launchers are somewhere around 60M each X 4 = 240M. Recovery of that 240M will come only from the difference in DPS between T2 and Faction launchers, in this example. That 240M upgrade will have to be amortized based upon the extra ISK from the difference in DPS. This is not a linear function as many factors contribute to mission completion times. And please don't confuse amortization with simply making 240M isk as that is not true cost accounting.

But faction mods are very cool and this is a game. If you want CN Heavy launchres, buy them. But are they worth it for L4s? The time horizon of that investment far too long to cost justify it. It would tie up cash, with a very slow return. If you are a multi-billionaire, none of this matters cuz you would just buy the faction launchers and play the game.


Actually, that's not right either. The only cost you have to account for with the CN launchers is opportunity cost of the non-liquid capital, as the launchers don't depreciate. If that 240mil makes you more money while invested in launchers than it would, say, a pirate cruiser hull, you've made a profit. If that 240mil would have been better spent on Technetium that would have appreciated more than the amount by which you beat T2 launchers, you've incurred an opportunity cost.

But meh, accounting.
grumpyguts1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#23 - 2011-10-06 20:21:22 UTC
Urgg Boolean wrote:
Goose99 wrote:
This is wrong. Gun and launcher balancing are different. Even with specialization 5, faction launchers will achieve higher dps than t2 launchers when using the same t1/faction ammo. In missions, you don't expect to lose your boat, and faction launcher prices has remained stable for years. However much you paid for them, can be sold later at the same price. They are not consumed, and can only bring in isk for you meanwhile.

I'm perfectly happy to admit I'm wrong. First off, I said you can get more DPS from the more expensive setups, like faction launchers. So on that point I think we agree.

But the OP asked if they were worth it. This is where we disagree. So let's look at some numbers. CN Heavy missile launchers are somewhere around 60M each X 4 = 240M. Recovery of that 240M will come only from the difference in DPS between T2 and Faction launchers, in this example. That 240M upgrade will have to be amortized based upon the extra ISK from the difference in DPS. This is not a linear function as many factors contribute to mission completion times. And please don't confuse amortization with simply making 240M isk as that is not true cost accounting.

But faction mods are very cool and this is a game. If you want CN Heavy launchres, buy them. But are they worth it for L4s? The time horizon of that investment far too long to cost justify it. It would tie up cash, with a very slow return. If you are a multi-billionaire, none of this matters cuz you would just buy the faction launchers and play the game.


4 launchers ShockedSadQuestionQuestionQuestion I pray this was a mistake...
BearJews
Order of Extrodinary Gentlemen
#24 - 2011-10-06 21:15:15 UTC
Use t2 with t2 ammo. make sure you get t2 rigs for the tengu and implants, then you don't have to worry about spending on faction. Secondly, whoever says wasting your 10 seconds to reload to precision isn't 100% right. On some missions, like lets say grusta extrava, killing all the frigs first then killing off the rest is a LOT faster than doing it according to the trigger, so what i do is switch to precision, 1-2 shot each of the frigs (there are going to be like 15-20 that you will have to kill), then switch to furies and take out the cruisers and up. The t2 with implants, skills, and t2 rigs are more than enough to take out those cruisers and up very quickly.

Go with t2 they are most cost effective when you are fitting your ship and your character right.
Urgg Boolean
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2011-10-06 21:23:34 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Urgg Boolean wrote:
But the OP asked if they were worth it. This is where we disagree. So let's look at some numbers. CN Heavy missile launchers are somewhere around 60M each X 4 = 240M. Recovery of that 240M will come only from the difference in DPS between T2 and Faction launchers, in this example. That 240M upgrade will have to be amortized based upon the extra ISK from the difference in DPS. This is not a linear function as many factors contribute to mission completion times. And please don't confuse amortization with simply making 240M isk as that is not true cost accounting.

But faction mods are very cool and this is a game. If you want CN Heavy launchres, buy them. But are they worth it for L4s? The time horizon of that investment far too long to cost justify it. It would tie up cash, with a very slow return. If you are a multi-billionaire, none of this matters cuz you would just buy the faction launchers and play the game.


Actually, that's not right either. The only cost you have to account for with the CN launchers is opportunity cost of the non-liquid capital, as the launchers don't depreciate. If that 240mil makes you more money while invested in launchers than it would, say, a pirate cruiser hull, you've made a profit. If that 240mil would have been better spent on Technetium that would have appreciated more than the amount by which you beat T2 launchers, you've incurred an opportunity cost.

But meh, accounting.

You are right, of course. I really didn't want to go off the deep end with accounting detail.

I just want to make sure people don't think that better DPS = faster mission completion time = better profits. It's not linear in that way. It's more like :: better DPS = faster killing which may or may not equal faster mission completion and/or more profits - depending on many factors.

But I stick to my original number crunching and maintain an opinion that faction launchers and ammo don't pay out well enough to justify costs for L4s. Now, CN Ballistic controllers? Yeah, buy those and/or build up LP and acquire tags. Those are worth it while you are working on your first 10 billion.

Just my opinion. I'll STFU now.
Capn Orgasmo
Dmacks Minnions
#26 - 2011-10-07 11:45:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Capn Orgasmo
Cipher Jones wrote:
Capn Orgasmo wrote:
Nothing beats t2 launchers and t2 missiles, if you are flying a tengu with t1 launchers then you are doing something very wrong.


As long as you mean DPS on paper and not actual mission completion time, you are right.

Don't try to teach the theory class if you haven't done the lab.



Ive been running missions in a tengu for a year now.

Furies = BS, BC
Standard missiles = Frigs, destroyers, cruisers.

Its a well known fact that it takes considerably longer to kill a battleship with standards over t2 missiles
"and what about faction?" I hear you ask.

Well They cost about 1k a pop, Compared to the 450isk for furies. which lowers your income considerably.

"but we can use lp to get cheap missiles"

Yes but then we are losing out on potential profit from the lp store.


Dont lecture me about theories vs labs.
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