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[Proposal ] The Removal of Ice from High Security Systems

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Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2011-10-04 18:23:32 UTC
roidspliter wrote:
ok so I wake up and this is the eve mail I find when I log on.

Greetings:

You have been identified as one of the unfortunate miners who has suffered the loss of his ship within the last 24 hours of Goonswarm's ongoing effort to stop the environmental destruction of New Eden and ensure that the faulty belief that ice mining is a profitable enteriprise ends. We are sad to see that you were caught up in our effort, but we do hope that you understand this was nothing to do with you in particular, but more to do with your chosen profession. We Goons are environmentalists.

That said, this is a one time offer.

If you will pay 500,000,000 isk you will be protected from further destruction. This one time payment will protect you in only ONE system, so make sure you point out which system you ice mine in when you reply!

Payment is immediately noted in our Goonswarm public boards and all Goons currently participating in the effort to eliminate miners will be notified immediately as well via evemail and notification on our internal Jabber system.

In your payment's comment line, please ensure you note the system you are mining in. Once paid? Mine to your heart's content and enjoy the upwardly mobile price of Oxytopes.

Thanks,

Venus Vermillion,
Goonswarm Recruiter and public representative.

Does anyone else find this mildly disturbing!!!
This is the alliance that is suppose to be looking out for all of us in the CSM. Its this kind of crap that makes me want to cancel all my accounts



You came here expecting us to respond with sympathy?

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Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#22 - 2011-10-04 18:54:03 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
roidspliter wrote:
ok so I wake up and this is the eve mail I find when I log on.

Greetings:

You have been identified as one of the unfortunate miners who has suffered the loss of his ship within the last 24 hours of Goonswarm's ongoing effort to stop the environmental destruction of New Eden and ensure that the faulty belief that ice mining is a profitable enteriprise ends. We are sad to see that you were caught up in our effort, but we do hope that you understand this was nothing to do with you in particular, but more to do with your chosen profession. We Goons are environmentalists.

That said, this is a one time offer.

If you will pay 500,000,000 isk you will be protected from further destruction. This one time payment will protect you in only ONE system, so make sure you point out which system you ice mine in when you reply!

Payment is immediately noted in our Goonswarm public boards and all Goons currently participating in the effort to eliminate miners will be notified immediately as well via evemail and notification on our internal Jabber system.

In your payment's comment line, please ensure you note the system you are mining in. Once paid? Mine to your heart's content and enjoy the upwardly mobile price of Oxytopes.

Thanks,

Venus Vermillion,
Goonswarm Recruiter and public representative.

Does anyone else find this mildly disturbing!!!
This is the alliance that is suppose to be looking out for all of us in the CSM. Its this kind of crap that makes me want to cancel all my accounts



You came here expecting us to respond with sympathy?


Not one to side with Drake... but sympathy can be located in the dictionary somewhere between **** and syphillis.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
roidspliter
Vellorium Industries
#23 - 2011-10-04 18:54:21 UTC
Nope I never look for Sympathy. In my opnion it is what it is. I just want to bring it to light, I think people should know the corruptness of the CSM
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#24 - 2011-10-04 19:02:48 UTC
roidspliter wrote:
Nope I never look for Sympathy. In my opnion it is what it is. I just want to bring it to light, I think people should know the corruptness of the CSM


If you actually did a little research, there is a distinctive reason they're doing it. It is to limit the ability to use Gallente supercaps (i.e. the Nyx-class Supercarrier is a current favorite). Crippling the market on fuel for these behemoths is a valid means of warfare. It's called cutting supply lines. If Goonswarm Federation controls the ice, they'll be able to wait until the fuel supply of their enemies dwindles, and/or put it on the market at such a markup that it'll force their enemies to find alternatives.

If I were you, I'd find a way to profit from this. Like find the cheapest Oxygen Isotopes on the market, buy in bulk, immediately mark up, and resell.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Karim alRashid
Starboard.
#25 - 2011-10-04 19:16:53 UTC
roidspliter wrote:
Nope I never look for Sympathy. In my opnion it is what it is. I just want to bring it to light, I think people should know the corruptness of the CSM


What corruption, dude, it's just an ordinary scam. Roll

Pain is weakness leaving the body http://www.youtube.com/user/AlRashidKarim/videos
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2011-10-04 19:19:59 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
roidspliter wrote:
Nope I never look for Sympathy. In my opnion it is what it is. I just want to bring it to light, I think people should know the corruptness of the CSM


If you actually did a little research, there is a distinctive reason they're doing it. It is to limit the ability to use Gallente supercaps (i.e. the Nyx-class Supercarrier is a current favorite). Crippling the market on fuel for these behemoths is a valid means of warfare. It's called cutting supply lines. If Goonswarm Federation controls the ice, they'll be able to wait until the fuel supply of their enemies dwindles, and/or put it on the market at such a markup that it'll force their enemies to find alternatives.

If I were you, I'd find a way to profit from this. Like find the cheapest Oxygen Isotopes on the market, buy in bulk, immediately mark up, and resell.



Tin foil Hat really clashes with your fashion sense.


Honestly they're doing it because they can.

And disrupting Super Caps by cutting off "Fuel"?

Reaching at best.

goonswarm has been ganking mackinaws for as long as I can remember.... and its always something they get a kick out of and manage to pull in a profit when they get someone to fall for a scam.

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Goose99
#27 - 2011-10-04 19:20:35 UTC
Jack Carrigan wrote:
roidspliter wrote:
Nope I never look for Sympathy. In my opnion it is what it is. I just want to bring it to light, I think people should know the corruptness of the CSM


If you actually did a little research, there is a distinctive reason they're doing it. It is to limit the ability to use Gallente supercaps (i.e. the Nyx-class Supercarrier is a current favorite). Crippling the market on fuel for these behemoths is a valid means of warfare. It's called cutting supply lines. If Goonswarm Federation controls the ice, they'll be able to wait until the fuel supply of their enemies dwindles, and/or put it on the market at such a markup that it'll force their enemies to find alternatives.

If I were you, I'd find a way to profit from this. Like find the cheapest Oxygen Isotopes on the market, buy in bulk, immediately mark up, and resell.


If you can rub two brain cells together, you'll notice the BS in their excuse to be goons.

Any entity that can afford moms won't be bothered by jump fuel prices going up a few times. Exploiting game mechanics for lulz is a valid means of being goons.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#28 - 2011-10-05 11:04:16 UTC
Vile rat wrote:
Removing the ability for cheap 'robotic' labor to take our jobs and push the prices down so far that it's not really worth it for people to do when actually sitting at their computer while playing the game = a good thing!


Indeed! Take the work away from the cheap hisec robotic labour and give it to the cheap null sec "exuberantly mining for 18 hours a day" labour.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Ice Dealer
Ice Dealer Corporation
#29 - 2011-10-05 16:19:48 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
lets see, goons are targeting blue ice, high sec mining.


within 24 hours the price has gone from 400 per isotope to nearly 3000 per isotope.....

so............ if this isn't a reason on why NOT to remove it, then i dont know what is.


I decided to wait a few days, as it would help drive my point home.
Oxygen Iso Prices at time of this post: Jita Sell order 898.99isk

Ice Dealer wrote:

From my mathematical simulations, I would expect Iso's to equalize around 900isk-1100isk per, six months to one year after implementation.


It's been only 6 days and "3000 per iso" is no longer. Although I've only seen it as high as 1200, but what do I know, I only exclusively trade Ice Product.

So lets talk less about "Moer tears, omg quit my accounts goons scammed me" and more about what the causes and effects are of our high iso prices.

Yes, I've read the reports on why goons did this. Goons gunna Goon.

So, why have they been hovering around the 900 mark for the past few days?

According to this: http://killboard.goonfleet.com/
They still have been killing macks.
So the supply still has a broken leg.

But why is it not over 10k / unit by now if all of the supply has been cut?
There must be another supply.
Low Sec? Null Sec? Quite possibly both.

Those that are not bots, are nutting up, getting corpies together, and going to low/null to cut ice.
Others that are not bots but havent nutted up, are crying because they can't AFK play the game.

No one likes change, I get that. However think about this long and hard, as you quite possibly may like what you see!
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#30 - 2011-10-05 16:29:27 UTC
Ice Dealer wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
lets see, goons are targeting blue ice, high sec mining.


within 24 hours the price has gone from 400 per isotope to nearly 3000 per isotope.....

so............ if this isn't a reason on why NOT to remove it, then i dont know what is.


I decided to wait a few days, as it would help drive my point home.
Oxygen Iso Prices at time of this post: Jita Sell order 898.99isk

Ice Dealer wrote:

From my mathematical simulations, I would expect Iso's to equalize around 900isk-1100isk per, six months to one year after implementation.


It's been only 6 days and "3000 per iso" is no longer. Although I've only seen it as high as 1200, but what do I know, I only exclusively trade Ice Product.

So lets talk less about "Moer tears, omg quit my accounts goons scammed me" and more about what the causes and effects are of our high iso prices.

Yes, I've read the reports on why goons did this. Goons gunna Goon.

So, why have they been hovering around the 900 mark for the past few days?

According to this: http://killboard.goonfleet.com/
They still have been killing macks.
So the supply still has a broken leg.

But why is it not over 10k / unit by now if all of the supply has been cut?
There must be another supply.
Low Sec? Null Sec? Quite possibly both.

Those that are not bots, are nutting up, getting corpies together, and going to low/null to cut ice.
Others that are not bots but havent nutted up, are crying because they can't AFK play the game.

No one likes change, I get that. However think about this long and hard, as you quite possibly may like what you see!


That's an easy one. Stockpiles are being released back into the market. In efforts to take advantage of the inflated prices, they're being released a little too quickly to maintain an excessively inflated value. As the stockpiles dwondle, prices will again begin to elevate.

Besides, you can't rule out option 2... the Goons are allowing miners to buy the rights to mine during this event. Depending on how many do this (and take advantage of the reduced competition) you'll also start seeing an increase in supply, although not at the initial level.

So yeah... the whole "remove ice from high" concept is still moronic.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ice Dealer
Ice Dealer Corporation
#31 - 2011-10-05 16:45:33 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
[quote=Ice Dealer][quote=Obsidian Hawk]lets see, goons are targeting blue ice, high sec mining.

Besides, you can't rule out option 2... the Goons are allowing miners to buy the rights to mine during this event. Depending on how many do this (and take advantage of the reduced competition) you'll also start seeing an increase in supply, although not at the initial level.



You didn't actually look at the killboard, the Goons have even killed blues, which has caused some unrest in the CFC.
They are not allowing any mining. Why don't you prove me wrong though, go out, pay a goon 500m and see if you can mine.Straight

As for the market being re-injected with stores of iso's, check the BEFORE daily traded volumes, check the daily volumes now.
Ice Dealer
Ice Dealer Corporation
#32 - 2011-10-05 16:54:32 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
I stopped reading when he said no one mines ice in 0.0.


Granted they may ship in SOME ice from 0.0 but the ice in 0.0 is far more "rich" than the crap you get in high sec.

Obviously this is a glorified troll.


Quote:
Ices Prices per Cube (refined cube value at 0% take, 0% waste)
Blue Ice
$261,686.01
Dark Glitter
$336,300.50
Gelidus
$189,950.75
Glare Crust
$183,900.25
Pristine White Glaze
$175,171.01
Thick Blue Ice
$308,871.01
Clear Icicle
$144,086.01
Enriched Clear Icicle
$171,671.01
Glacial Mass
$153,086.01
Krystallos
$121,701.00
Smooth Glacial Mass
$182,171.01
White Glaze
$147,086.01


So you're saying that 0.0 spawning ice such as Pristine White Glaze at $175,171.01 is far more rich then White Glaze $147,086.01? 350 iso's vs 300? Lets talk about risk vs reward shall we?
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2011-10-05 17:32:21 UTC
Ice Dealer wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
I stopped reading when he said no one mines ice in 0.0.


Granted they may ship in SOME ice from 0.0 but the ice in 0.0 is far more "rich" than the crap you get in high sec.

Obviously this is a glorified troll.


Quote:
Ices Prices per Cube (refined cube value at 0% take, 0% waste)
Blue Ice
$261,686.01
Dark Glitter
$336,300.50
Gelidus
$189,950.75
Glare Crust
$183,900.25
Pristine White Glaze
$175,171.01
Thick Blue Ice
$308,871.01
Clear Icicle
$144,086.01
Enriched Clear Icicle
$171,671.01
Glacial Mass
$153,086.01
Krystallos
$121,701.00
Smooth Glacial Mass
$182,171.01
White Glaze
$147,086.01


So you're saying that 0.0 spawning ice such as Pristine White Glaze at $175,171.01 is far more rich then White Glaze $147,086.01? 350 iso's vs 300? Lets talk about risk vs reward shall we?


Scuse me? Have you ever lived in 0.0?

Oh wait...you havn't have you.

Becuase if you had...you'd understand there's risk involved in transport of cargo via Jump Freighters...specially if the bridge goes down.

You'd also know that ice locally mined for POS's that can consume that fuel are cheaper to do so locally with an outpost capable of refining.

We all know your just a glorified troll so please... move along.

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Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2011-10-05 18:37:03 UTC
Actually I visit 0.0 often.

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Ice Dealer
Ice Dealer Corporation
#35 - 2011-10-05 19:48:16 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:
Actually I visit 0.0 often.



Visit is not live.
Many of my customers are 0.0 dwellers, I deliver there very obtain. I've never lost a JF, just lots of cynos.
Moving a JF with good skills doesnt cost very much in fuel. Yes, there is a risk in moving JF's around, but as long as you have an alt for eyes that's not an issue.

As for wormhole dwellers, I sell to them, but never deliver (obviously).
They should not have ice, nor should they have as much ore as they have either.
They have sleepers, which is the whole reason for WHS anyway. I realize that some high-end mats are needed for t3 production, but currently their supply's are a lot more then their demand. Currently ice is the only monthly import for WHS, that and a very few whom's planets can not sustain POS fuels.

Furthermore, lets take a little look at CCP Recurve Dev Blog.
I would like to thank him for his hard work, as I know it must have taken a good deal of time. Recurve, there are people who enjoy your work, please keep them coming! (maybe even get our Q reports back?... Big smile)
Linked relationship between PI and Ice prices (graph!).

This blog was posted after this thread was created, and was one of the points I was trying to make.
If ice goes up, PI goes down. While this is bad for PI initially, it will normalize after the market corrections.
Drake Draconis
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2011-10-05 20:38:04 UTC
Ice Dealer wrote:
Drake Draconis wrote:
Actually I visit 0.0 often.



Visit is not live.
Many of my customers are 0.0 dwellers, I deliver there very obtain. I've never lost a JF, just lots of cynos.
Moving a JF with good skills doesnt cost very much in fuel. Yes, there is a risk in moving JF's around, but as long as you have an alt for eyes that's not an issue.

As for wormhole dwellers, I sell to them, but never deliver (obviously).
They should not have ice, nor should they have as much ore as they have either.
They have sleepers, which is the whole reason for WHS anyway. I realize that some high-end mats are needed for t3 production, but currently their supply's are a lot more then their demand. Currently ice is the only monthly import for WHS, that and a very few whom's planets can not sustain POS fuels.

Furthermore, lets take a little look at CCP Recurve Dev Blog.
I would like to thank him for his hard work, as I know it must have taken a good deal of time. Recurve, there are people who enjoy your work, please keep them coming! (maybe even get our Q reports back?... Big smile)
Linked relationship between PI and Ice prices (graph!).

This blog was posted after this thread was created, and was one of the points I was trying to make.
If ice goes up, PI goes down. While this is bad for PI initially, it will normalize after the market corrections.


While I 'don't live" in 0.0...neither do you according to the information your giving.

Regardless... your prespective is based on a small smattering of prespectives and statistics your practicually pulling out of thin air.

Removal of Ice from high sec is a foolish notion.

Depletion i can deal with... but as its clearly been said alrady but the majority here...regardless of some trolls.... this is foolish and riddeled with "tin foil."

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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#37 - 2011-10-05 20:53:30 UTC
As a human playing in Australia, I heartily support the concept of depleting the static ice belts. That means far more ISK for me since I'll be able to mine the belts immediately after downtime while everyone else has nothing.

On the other hand, moving ice belts to grav sites means that there is something worth mining in hisec grav sites, and all the ice won't be disappearing within an hour after downtime.

Depleting static belts is a silly idea. Suitable perhaps as a stopgap if CCP already have the "move all static belts to grav sites" process well under way, but a foolish & shortsighted move otherwise.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Ice Dealer
Ice Dealer Corporation
#38 - 2011-10-05 23:07:07 UTC
Drake Draconis wrote:

1) While I 'don't live" in 0.0...neither do you according to the information your giving.

2) Regardless... your prespective is based on a small smattering of prespectives and statistics your practicually pulling out of thin air.

3) Removal of Ice from high sec is a foolish notion.

Depletion i can deal with... but as its clearly been said alrady but the majority here...regardless of some trolls.... this is foolish and riddeled with "tin foil."


1) I never claimed to, you accused me of not knowing about the risk's involved in transportation, which I in fact do.

2) And by thin air, you mean actual information from CCP.

3) Prove it. I've given supporting case as to why it would be good. Or is Logic too hard for you? Eve does have a steep learning curve, so if you cant, then just keep quite please.


Mara Rinn wrote:
As a human playing in Australia, I heartily support the concept of depleting the static ice belts. That means far more ISK for me since I'll be able to mine the belts immediately after downtime while everyone else has nothing.

On the other hand, moving ice belts to grav sites means that there is something worth mining in hisec grav sites, and all the ice won't be disappearing within an hour after downtime.

Depleting static belts is a silly idea. Suitable perhaps as a stopgap if CCP already have the "move all static belts to grav sites" process well under way, but a foolish & shortsighted move otherwise.


Keeping ice in highsec at all in my opinion is bad.

No ice in empire. Else there would still be a supply.

Currently there is nothing in empire that you HAVE to import from 0.0. Ice would solve that, as well as solve many other issues with market bubbles (tech, t2, etc)
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#39 - 2011-10-06 02:16:43 UTC
Ice Dealer wrote:


Currently there is nothing in empire that you HAVE to import from 0.0. Ice would solve that, as well as solve many other issues with market bubbles (tech, t2, etc)



However, your opinion is ill thought out and fails to fully consider the ripple effects such a poorly thought out move would have. As I'm sure you're aware, ice fuels the pos's (in their current configuration). You'll have all ice fuels spiking in prices as the supply drops dramatically, and there'll be a negligible increase in the amount of ice supplied from null sec. Simply put, it'll become too expensive to maintain pos's anywhere except null. Not only will a ton of research and industry screech to a halt in high sec, but wormholes will drastically suffer. As such, many corps in wormholes will fail, simply being inable to keep their pos fueled (and thus greatly reducing T3 research and production), and those that do manage to hang on will have no choice but to jack up T3 prices even more simply to break even.

Basically, T3 prices will go through the roof. Researched items and blueprints will go throughthe roof. The ripples would pretty well cripple the economy to a devatating degree.

And the kicker?

People still won't go to null to mine ice. There's a reason they're not there as it is. You can't take the sand from one person's sandbox and expect them to go play in the one you tell them to. They'll simply look at their empty box and go home.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Adunh Slavy
#40 - 2011-10-06 04:46:18 UTC
Can only agree to this if ice is put into worm holes. I do not currently live in one, though I did at one time.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt