These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Tribal Liberation Force heroine accused of War Crimes!

Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#181 - 2012-06-09 01:41:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezra Tair
Dilaro thagriin wrote:

Secondly, it will take a short time to correctly word a response to your fellow tribe member, who, while also blinded by hatred like yourself, at least has the ability to speak in a well reasoned and understandable manner.

crow all you like about how the nefantar have personally hurt you. We both know that they could not call themselves that until a little over 3 and a half years ago when the elders brought them to the sanctuaries. to even mention their old tribal name would have invited Amarrian inquisition and risked the lives of the Starkmanir.

You still don't get it do you. Your own tribal elders have stated that it was their plan. the six remaining clan elders called out to their Nefantar kin and called them home, along with the Starkmanir. You are calling the elder of the Kurusal a liar.

Ezra, please grant me some time to read again your words and explain how i personally see our histories. if you so wish we can speak privately regarding this. I will respond on here if i don't hear back from you soon.



As long as we can remain without name calling, I feel this brand of confusion cannot exist in public eyes. Its not hate that blinds me, for I see clearly. The fog of darkness, deceit and lies was lifted from me shortly after the elder invasion. You see, my parents were one of those taken in a slave raid. Those raids, the Amarr, and the Ammatar deny existing. I think someday, those that DID rebel MIGHT have a place...someday. But not until they have paid their due to the dead, and the lost.

Regardless, now that the fog is lifted, I act not in anger.

My parents were not in, fact, taken as an accident. You say the Elders knew the Starkmanir still existed, and I will confirm they did. Because my parent volunteered to be captured. They studied to create chems like 'Insorum', spread by the Elder fleets. When captured, all I am told is that they were find suitable to be ship crewmen. My father died when my mother refused to perform some action that involved firing on a civilian (minmatar) craft. My mother died after ripping the throat out of an Admiral when the Elder fleet began its assault. Assisting with the disruption of communications, command and control, and the Amarran defense fleet. All this planned. At lest 4 years prior by my measure.

But you see, to say that (to borrow a popular null sec phase) this was all "planned at the BBQ", is a deception. If the Nefantar had wanted to be free, and bring the remaining Starkmanir home. They could have at the rebellion. If they had wanted to, they could have at any time after assuming the name Ammatar.

No the Elder fleets actions are because some sizable minority decided they would rebel. And the Elder fleet supported that. Since were not willing to risk death to incite rebellion on their own as the other tribes did, under worse odds...well the measure of respect given is not great at all. And I have no sympathy at all for their struggles currently.

But the Starkmanir are destroyed in my opinion, and the Nefantar are to blame. This burden hangs on them, and a mere 3 years of difficulties and coddling by politicians will not change that. They (Nefantar) passed on nothing of the Starkmanir's culture, nothing of theirs was preserved. To say it was to save the simple genetic descendants means nothing. A people are not just blood. A people are their memories as well. And while I hope for the best, the Starkmanir will not be the same, ever again. The Nefantar destroyed them as surly they would have died on Starkman Prime.

No, the Nefantar must pay with their blood to 'repent of the fathers sins'. As the faith they ascribe to insists.


As an afterthought, I might add that history past and present declares them cowards, too willing to run, too willing to let others bear the burden, and too willing to avoid the spilling of their blood.
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#182 - 2012-06-09 05:08:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Ssakaa
Rodj Blake wrote:

I would have thought it obvious that I consider Minmatar nationalism to be an ugly thing.


Honey bunny ... it was merely a dash of satire at your expense. Gosakumori Noh would have likely 'gotten it', perhaps you could take a leaf out of her book sometime and ... well ...

Smile, man!

It won't kill you.

*

We've come a long long way from the inestimable Muck Raker's sensationalist 'TLF Heroine accused of Crimes!' headline. There were highs, there were lows, there were seasons in the sun. But for the most part it's been a special kind of thrill.

So, I bid you goodnight, sleep tight and don't let the conscience bite.


AA

"Modern Life is Rubbish"
Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#183 - 2012-06-09 13:53:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dilaro thagriin
Ezra Tair wrote:


But you see, to say that (to borrow a popular null sec phase) this was all "planned at the BBQ", is a deception. If the Nefantar had wanted to be free, and bring the remaining Starkmanir home. They could have at the rebellion. If they had wanted to, they could have at any time after assuming the name Ammatar.


Could they?

At the time of the rebellion I am certain they remembered how they had been directly blamed, as any ruling elite generally are, for the fact that Amarrian slave raids were occurring.

They had been vilified due to their inability to stop a vastly technologically superior foe from raiding their home planet. This vilification persits to this day.

After they assumed the name Ammatar, any attempt to remove themselves from the grip of the Amarrians would have run into further obstacles. The first being an Amarrian fleet that could reach them in a matter of hours and depopulate entire planets.

The second being that they would have had nowhere to go. You cannot state that if a large Nefantar fleet had tried to re-enter the Republic at any time before the elders sent sufficient firepower to halt any response, that yourselves, and those who feel like you would not have relished the opportunity to destroy them, whether or not there were Starkmanir on board.

The third, and perhaps the most important is this. Insorum did not exist. As part of the price for their survival, and a way to control them, most of the Nefantar and Starkmanir on those planets were infected with Vitoxin. The Amarrian leadership demanded it of them. There is no way that the Republic could have gathered sufficient supplies of Vitoc to alleviate the symptoms of Vitoxin poisoning for the numbers we are speaking of here.

To rebel before the elders were ready would not have been to 'risk death' but to garuantee it, for the vast majority of those who chose to leave. Not just any death, but death from Vitoxin, one of the most disgusting substances ever created by man.

The Starkmanir may be changed by their time away from the people, but they are not dead. They are alive, and for that we should be thankful. Yes, the route taken to save them may not have been the best, but you seem to be forgetting that at the time in question, The Matari people had no fleet and the Amarrian fleet was patrolling our systems, destroying anything they saw as a threat. The Starkmanir homeworld had been wiped out and those who were left were being hunted by Amarrian death squads.

All things change, Even Clans and cultures. They will survive, they will grow and perhaps they will learn a better way. Removed from the toubles of their past

There were few choices remaining, Perhaps the elders hoped to repatriate the Starkmanir and Nefantar much sooner than they did, but the universe has a way of disrupting even the best laid of plans. Do you think that fleets of the size used to repatriate our kin were created overnight?

Regardless, as soon as it was possible, and Insorum had been perfected, the elders acted. They brought our people back together, as one people, the seven clans of Pator.

That is who we are. That is who we should be and it is my hope, that in times to come, that is who we WILL be.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#184 - 2012-06-10 00:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezra Tair
Ezra Tair wrote:


But you see, to say that (to borrow a popular null sec phase) this was all "planned at the BBQ", is a deception. If the Nefantar had wanted to be free, and bring the remaining Starkmanir home. They could have at the rebellion. If they had wanted to, they could have at any time after assuming the name Ammatar.


Could they?

At the time of the rebellion I am certain they remembered how they had been directly blamed, as any ruling elite generally are, for the fact that Amarrian slave raids were occurring.

Response from Ezra wrote:
I believe a better question is why would they not? Unless they were fearful of the rebellion failing, and preferred their life as taskmasters. We have no hard evidence or history on this What remains seems to point to Nefantar 'well-to-do' making deals with the Amarr NOT to have their families taken. Also, I assume you mean that at the time of the rebellion, millions had a distaste of living Nefantar due to the several hundard years of slavery they endured under their hands? Not the 125 years of raids after the DoD but before the formal invasion?


They had been vilified due to their inability to stop a vastly technologically superior foe from raiding their home planet. This vilification persits to this day.


After they assumed the name Ammatar, any attempt to remove themselves from the grip of the Amarrians would have run into further obstacles. The first being an Amarrian fleet that could reach them in a matter of hours and depopulate entire planets. ]


The second being that they would have had nowhere to go. You cannot state that if a large Nefantar fleet had tried to re-enter the Republic at any time before the elders sent sufficient firepower to halt any response, that yourselves, and those who feel like you would not have relished the opportunity to destroy them, whether or not there were Starkmanir on board.

The third, and perhaps the most important is this. Insoru] did not exist. As part of the price for their survival, and a way to control them, most of the Nefantar and Starkmanir on those planets were infected with Vitoxin. The Amarrian leadership demanded it of them. There is no way that the Republic could have gathered sufficient supplies of Vitoc to alleviate the symptoms of Vitoxin poisoning for the numbers we are speaking of here.

Response From Ezra wrote:
They were vilified because they cut deals with the enemy for preferential treatment, and accepted roles as taskmasters for centuries. No one blames the Sebiestor for not having developed a better ship despite being the primary force behind the development of spacecraft. So I cannot see that holding water

Oddly, I would agree, but there is the little matter of when the time DID come. Why did they not return in entirety?

No I cannot state that, you are right.

Generally, only ship crews were infected, otherwise why bombard Starkman Prime? You might have a point otherwise, but I did not see the rebellion fail due to Vitoxin. I cannot see that as a primary reason.


To rebel before the elders were ready would not have been to 'risk death' but to garuantee it, for the vast majority of those who chose to leave. Not just any death, but death from Vitoxin, one of the most disgusting substances ever created by man.

The Starkmanir may be changed by their time away from the people, but they are not dead. They are alive, and for that we should be thankful. Yes, the route taken to save them may not have been the best, but you seem to be forgetting that at the time in question, The Matari people had no fleet and the Amarrian fleet was patrolling our systems, destroying anything they saw as a threat. The Starkmanir homeworld had been wiped out and those who were left were being hunted by Amarrian death squads.

All things change, Even Clans and cultures. They will survive, they will grow and perhaps they will learn a better way. Removed from the toubles of their past

Response from Ezra wrote:
Then why did the rebellion not fail? And once more, when the time came, they did not all turn. This is telling. It also re-enforces that the Nefantar seems to lack the will to rebel with FAR better support when the intial rebellion had. But why rebel when you are comfortably in bed with the enemy?

In this we will have to agree to disagree. I consider the Starkmanir tribe destroyed. Any new body that develops will not be the same, but in name only


There were few choices remaining, Perhaps the elders hoped to repatriate the Starkmanir and Nefantar much sooner than they did, but the universe has a way of disrupting even the best laid of plans. Do you think that fleets of the size used to repatriate our kin were created overnight?

Regardless, as soon as it was possible, and Insorum had been perfected, the elders acted. They brought our people back together, as one people, the seven clans of Pator.

Response from Ezra wrote:
The Elders are men, and they are NOT infallible men. They do not exactly share the reasons or political machinations for acting when they did.

By all accounts it took up to 4 years to build the fleet I believe.

if my parents disappearance is any indication, it (Insorum) was fulyl developed two years prior. Although that is simply my conjuncture.


That is who we are. That is who we should be and it is my hope, that in times to come, that is who we WILL be.

--The last response, and due to galnet rules, not in a quote block.
I disagree
pelchan
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#185 - 2012-06-10 02:05:44 UTC
Interesting and meh!
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#186 - 2012-06-10 09:18:30 UTC
Just passing through, but, Nefantar wreckers have now clearly taken special measures to distort Ezra's words and now even his good name is a target.

As in.

"Response wrote:"

By the fates, their malice knows know bounds nor confines...

"Modern Life is Rubbish"
Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#187 - 2012-06-10 13:39:26 UTC
A wise man once said that is is easier to believe a good lie, than it is a difficult truth.
It seems that the Murentior have fallen for the lie.

I will ask that the spirits guide and protect you children.
Hatred cannot sustain you forever, not without turning you into that which you hate so much.
You will come home when you are ready, and the clans will be waiting.
Boma Airaken
Perkone
Caldari State
#188 - 2012-06-10 14:51:00 UTC
You still haven't addressed how you really feel about murdering so many Matari. Some of us are seriously interested in this transition. Its emotional and psychological effects, at the very least.
Dilaro thagriin
Doomheim
#189 - 2012-06-10 15:09:14 UTC
I have already answered that question Boma.

How do I feel? Relieved.
I don't know how long your 'generous ally' had kept them without their Vitoc dosage, but they were dying, slowly and painfully.
Vitoxin is an agonising death.
They deserved better, and i gave them such.

Now, leave it.
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#190 - 2012-06-10 15:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ssakaa
Dilaro thagriin wrote:
I have already answered that question Boma.

How do I feel? Relieved.
I don't know how long your 'generous ally' had kept them without their Vitoc dosage, but they were dying, slowly and painfully.
Vitoxin is an agonising death.
They deserved better, and i gave them such.

Now, leave it.



Juicy.

Where's Muck Raker when you need her?

Although...

Dilaro, your statement could theoretically be perceived to be quite the artificial one as was the question to which it was an answer. Intriguing, juicy stuff, but I have a date to attend to. Love is in the air!

"Modern Life is Rubbish"
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#191 - 2012-06-10 18:53:58 UTC
Dilaro thagriin wrote:
A wise man once said that is is easier to believe a good lie, than it is a difficult truth.
It seems that the Murentior have fallen for the lie.

I will ask that the spirits guide and protect you children.
Hatred cannot sustain you forever, not without turning you into that which you hate so much.
You will come home when you are ready, and the clans will be waiting.



But what difficult truth is this? Your fanciful tale of omnipotent elders conspiring a far reaching agenda though almost a thousand years of which over 600 were under the conditions of chattel slavery?

There is a real, and honest reason to vehemently hate the Nefantar if you objectively review history without colored glasses. If you wanted to, you can view their placement in sanctuaries as acknowledgment of this honest reason.


Forgiving, that has nothing to do with having a reason to forgive them. For me, and many others, there is little reason. If you want to proclaim the Elders wisdom in attempting the conversion and acceptance of the Nefantar. Go head, but no one is under any illusion about what they are or were in the past and in history.

That is all.
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#192 - 2012-06-10 20:26:25 UTC
Ezra Tair wrote:

There is a real, and honest reason to vehemently hate the Nefantar if you objectively review history without colored glasses. If you wanted to, you can view their placement in sanctuaries as acknowledgment of this honest reason.

Forgiving, that has nothing to do with having a reason to forgive them. For me, and many others, there is little reason. If you want to proclaim the Elders wisdom in attempting the conversion and acceptance of the Nefantar. Go head, but no one is under any illusion about what they are or were in the past and in history.

That is all.


It's exactly this sort of logic that keeps the wars going on all sides. This rather pointless glancing back over your shoulder into the past, seeing hard decisions and outright mistakes being made by leaders of the time, and then blaming each new generation for those decisions and mistakes. Centuries have passed since the Nefantar made the choice to become Ammatar, the children born into that decision had no say in it, it was simply their life handed to them by those that came before. I simply do not see any reasons to hold children responsible for the sins of their mothers and fathers.

Yes, there are no doubt Ammatar who mistreat Matari, and yes there is no doubt in my mind that there are still slave raids despite the laws against them in this day and age. If you wish to blame an entire population, a culture and civilization in it's own right, then by all means show me the evidence of guilt for each and every single man, woman, and child. Simply put, you can't. There is no population that is that unified, that wholly in agreement in both thought and action, that could possibly even justify condemning an entire population.
Ezra Tair
Doomheim
#193 - 2012-06-10 23:32:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Ezra Tair
Uraniae Fehrnah wrote:
Ezra Tair wrote:

There is a real, and honest reason to vehemently hate the Nefantar if you objectively review history without colored glasses. If you wanted to, you can view their placement in sanctuaries as acknowledgment of this honest reason.

Forgiving, that has nothing to do with having a reason to forgive them. For me, and many others, there is little reason. If you want to proclaim the Elders wisdom in attempting the conversion and acceptance of the Nefantar. Go head, but no one is under any illusion about what they are or were in the past and in history.

That is all.


It's exactly this sort of logic that keeps the wars going on all sides. This rather pointless glancing back over your shoulder into the past, seeing hard decisions and outright mistakes being made by leaders of the time, and then blaming each new generation for those decisions and mistakes. Centuries have passed since the Nefantar made the choice to become Ammatar, the children born into that decision had no say in it, it was simply their life handed to them by those that came before. I simply do not see any reasons to hold children responsible for the sins of their mothers and fathers.

Yes, there are no doubt Ammatar who mistreat Matari, and yes there is no doubt in my mind that there are still slave raids despite the laws against them in this day and age. If you wish to blame an entire population, a culture and civilization in it's own right, then by all means show me the evidence of guilt for each and every single man, woman, and child. Simply put, you can't. There is no population that is that unified, that wholly in agreement in both thought and action, that could possibly even justify condemning an entire population.


Are you aware of the concept of tacit consent? When a population adopts, unspoken, the policies it's government adopts? If you do not challenge evil ways, and allow them to continue, you are an accessory to the action. Your attempt to mask the guilt of the Nefantar with challenges of "Not everyone did these evil things" does not prevent the assignment of guilt. They are guilty though their tacit consent. And when I speak of Nefantar, i speak of those that left their Mandate, not the Ammatar. And as i said prior, they might find inclusion, someday. But not today, and likely not tomorrow. As I have heard 'punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation'.

What what logic, otherwise, would you suggest each side employ? I beg of you Ammarians to adopt it first. This 'thinking' brings ruin upon the hapless population to first practice it.
Lyn Farel
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#194 - 2012-06-11 08:54:05 UTC
Tacit consent usually implies full awareness of what is going on and actually having the means to do something but doing nothing nevertheless.

If that definition was not true, I would already haved pointed out your own tacit consent to stupidity. Yes, you can take it as ad-hominem, I do not care and am full aware of it.
Jake Favre
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2012-06-11 09:09:26 UTC
Lyn Farel wrote:
Tacit consent usually implies full awareness of what is going on and actually having the means to do something but doing nothing nevertheless.

If that definition was not true, I would already haved pointed out your own tacit consent to stupidity. Yes, you can take it as ad-hominem, I do not care and am full aware of it.


Now that is enough. You have gone too far and your attitude is nowhere near commendable and neither professional. I tolerated your participation on the IGS for the last few years, but it is now obvious that your unability to learn correctly several things is getting in the way. I find it shameful that I ever actually have to come here to tell you that in person for you to understand and open your damn ******* eyes.

This is my last warning, Farel.
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#196 - 2012-06-11 14:20:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ssakaa
Lyn Farel wrote:


Have you lost weight, there, Lyn Farel? Looking a bit malnourished. A bit pasty.

Also, what exactly is a kitz? And why are you kitzless? Did you mean kitsch?

Kitz, kitch, all the same to the mighty Murientor -and what is this recurring dirty laundry theme going on around here of late?

"Modern Life is Rubbish"
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#197 - 2012-06-11 14:26:21 UTC
Ssakaa wrote:
Also, what exactly is a kitz? And why are you kitzless? Did you mean kitsch?

It's what the Society of Conscious Thought calls its self-contained enclaves.

Morwen Lagann

CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

Owner, The Golden Masque
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#198 - 2012-06-11 14:43:41 UTC
I have to agree with Farel here. Tacit consent requires knowledge of these actions and a means to oppose them. By all accounts the Nefantar that knew and shielded the Starkmanir were a very small group of tribal leaders at the time, which is most likely why it even worked to begin with. From that time forward the number of Nefantar that knew no doubt grew proportionately smaller compared to those that didn't. Further each successive generation became more and more Ammatar simply because they were born into that situation. Likewise the amount of people that know of illegal slave raids and can stop them is a pitifully small amount of people.

My suggestion, for what it's worth, is that if you feel the need to go on hating someone then you should hate the Ammatar, not the Nefantar. The two groups are now distinctly ideologically different in that one chooses the Amarrian life and one chooses the Matari life. If you must hate, hate for a reason not for a race.

Also, if you do want to keep hating the Nefantar, I suggest you find and visit one of these sanctuary communities. Find a group of children at play, approach them, and tell them you hate them for the choices their ancestors made. Then come back here and let us all know how your hate feels.
Ssakaa
Animatar Foundation
#199 - 2012-06-11 15:50:56 UTC
Uraniae Fehrnah - a question back at you, in a more serious tone:

You speak of hatred for Amarr. Would you prefer raw hatred -or a far more subtle take-the-high-ground pity?

Would you have it that way instead?

"Modern Life is Rubbish"
Uraniae Fehrnah
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#200 - 2012-06-11 18:27:21 UTC
I'm speaking of hatred in general, the target of it is not very important at all. To answer your question I wouldn't have it either way you mentioned. Hatred of any sort is willful blindness to some degree. The stronger the hatred the more effective the blinders. To be clear I'm speaking of the sweeping racial hatreds, those are folly. I have no problem with anyone hating specific persons or specific groups, but hating an entire people just strikes me as a waste of time and energy, as well as patently stupid.