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HiSec Miners - Sponsoring Risk Aversion
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ashley Eoner
#101 - 2012-06-09 19:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
RubyPorto wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Your theory is great and all but it's not possible to utilize your fittings to be impossible to suicide gank so you pretty much have no point to your post.


So, uh, what ships in the game are impossible to suicide gank?
I'm guessing titans maybe?


Technically True. But that's because they aren't allowed in HS, thus there is no CONCORD to make it a Suicide Gank. It's a function of the space rather than the fit/ship.
I was going for the technicality but considering the level of discourse I abandoned that angle because I didn't expect anyone to be quick enough mentally to pick up on it.
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2012-06-09 19:21:25 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Natsett Amuinn wrote:
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote:
Morganta wrote:
yeah, while I have to say I fully support the ganking of mining boats the whole "you have slots, use em" argument is misleading

a tanked hulk is about as good as nothing to anything more then a single ganker

now if CCP buffed the CPU or power to the point of them being better then a frigate people may have the chance to tank or go active defense, but really the ORE classes have crap grid and CPU and can't tank much more than rats with a good fit.

I wouldn't mind miners being a little harder to nab and to stand a fighting chance to do more than just get on the concord killmails and lose an expensive boat, hell they may even like it and make the jump to skirmish warfare.



This


This


Is crap. You don't even need to tank a retreiver, let alone a hulk, to deal with rats in hi sec. 3 drones will kill the rats for you, with not a single module installed to provide you any bit of extra defense.


Why do you guys keep trying to perpetrate this myth that it's impossible to tank a hulk to deal with the ONE guy trying to blow you up in hi sec. CCP knows you guys are full of crap, as does anyone else who has the openmindedness to actually read what everyonehas been saying in every single thread about this.

Instead you guys just keep coming up with one excuse after the other to say that it's not possible.

First it's OMG, WTF, YEILD!!
Then it's OMG, WTF, ISK PER HOUR!!!
Then you got OMG, WTF, CONCORD DOESN'T ACTUALLY PROTECT ME!!!!
Then you'll move on to OMG, WTF, IT'S GREIFING!!!!!
Then we get OMG, WTF, WE HAZ ALL THE RISK!!!!!!
Now you're saying OMG, WTF, THE SHIP DOSNT HAZ THE CPU AND POWERZ!!!!!!!


I look forward to the next excuse.


apparently you don't read so well
nobody said its impossible to tank against one guy in highsec, I said quite the opposite
"a tanked hulk is about as good as nothing to anything more then a single ganker"

what I said is anything more than that is impossible due to restricted CPU and grid and the notion expressed by people who gank in groups, that tank will help, is very misleading.

I'll forget your slip up since you are apparently one of the new recruits and don't know when your calling one of your own allies a bear Roll

CONCORD forbid miners both tank -and- mine aligned in High-sec.

You know, like they didn't want to be ganked or something.
adam smash
Department of Gub'nent Welfare
Harkonnen Federation
#103 - 2012-06-09 19:21:41 UTC
Ganking is no risk... don't listen to the nullbears... I wish life was as risky as ganking.

Know you are going to lose X isk, know you are going to make at least X + Y isk.

Go pop out to null rofl do a scan.

Orca
Orca
Hulk
Hulk
Hulk
Hulk
Hulk

That's a SMALL little op I found from a low sec > null wh... rofl..

All this ganking is to make the null bears more money.

I like to see these people gank or kick their own hulks... O rite... again comes back to this is ALLLLLLLL to make the null bears isk.
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#104 - 2012-06-09 19:25:29 UTC
adam smash wrote:
Ganking is no risk... don't listen to the nullbears... I wish life was as risky as ganking.

Know you are going to lose X isk, know you are going to make at least X + Y isk.

Go pop out to null rofl do a scan.

Orca
Orca
Hulk
Hulk
Hulk
Hulk
Hulk

That's a SMALL little op I found from a low sec > null wh... rofl..

All this ganking is to make the null bears more money.

I like to see these people gank or kick their own hulks... O rite... again comes back to this is ALLLLLLLL to make the null bears isk.

You are so wrong you have no idea.

First, your real world analogy is utterly moronic.

Ganking is more like a lottery than any sort of business.

You WILL pay for the attempt with your ship.

You MAY get nice loot and drops.

You ALSO may get nothing but a miner laughing at your failure.

To accomplish this the miner can either warp away or tank his Hulk.

That the miner does neither one in a statistically overwhelming majority of cases is the only reason ganking appears to have no risk.

Sorry if this is too complicated.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#105 - 2012-06-09 19:27:19 UTC
Morganta wrote:


apparently you don't read so well
nobody said its impossible to tank against one guy in highsec, I said quite the opposite
"a tanked hulk is about as good as nothing to anything more then a single ganker"

what I said is anything more than that is impossible due to restricted CPU and grid and the notion expressed by people who gank in groups, that tank will help, is very misleading.

I'll forget your slip up since you are apparently one of the new recruits and don't know when your calling one of your own allies a bear Roll


Tanking your Hulk will make it a breakeven (at best) proposition to gank you. Especially in the higher security bands.
30k EHP vs ~600dps*20s(CONCORD response in .5) per 5m ISK Catalyst means 3 Catalysts are needed to gank you (4 if you use ECM drones).
Your Hulk is likely to drop 10m in loot and 10m in salvage. Without the GSF bounty, that's a breakeven gank. With it, it's 2.5m Isk per pilot.

An untanked Hulk only costs 2 catalysts worth 10m to guarantee a gank and the gang can be hitting 2 targets per 15min gcc cycle instead of 1.

Flying your mining ship actively and avoiding gankers all together is an even better option.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Yuda Mann
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#106 - 2012-06-09 19:31:07 UTC
http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=1293
I'm also against the lack of danger and the awful boring times when you are just chugging along and nothing threatens you.
-CCP Oveur, 2004.07.01

http://eve-search.com/thread/528360/page/1#29
EVE is a dark and harsh world, you're supposed to feel a bit worried and slightly angry when you log in, you're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.
-CCP Wrangler, 2007.05.29
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2012-06-09 19:31:37 UTC
adam smash wrote:
Ganking is no risk... don't listen to the nullbears... I wish life was as risky as ganking.

Know you are going to lose X isk, know you are going to make at least X + Y isk.

Go pop out to null rofl do a scan.

Orca
Orca
Hulk
Hulk
Hulk
Hulk
Hulk

That's a SMALL little op I found from a low sec > null wh... rofl..

All this ganking is to make the null bears more money.

I like to see these people gank or kick their own hulks... O rite... again comes back to this is ALLLLLLLL to make the null bears isk.


because nullsec miners in grav sites compete with hisec miners mining veldspar

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#108 - 2012-06-09 19:32:02 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Richard Desturned wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
Your theory is great and all but it's not possible to utilize your fittings to be impossible to suicide gank so you pretty much have no point to your post.


So, uh, what ships in the game are impossible to suicide gank?
I'm guessing titans maybe?


Technically True. But that's because they aren't allowed in HS, thus there is no CONCORD to make it a Suicide Gank. It's a function of the space rather than the fit/ship.
I was going for the technicality but considering the level of discourse I abandoned that angle because I didn't expect anyone to be quick enough mentally to pick up on it.


Your initial statement was that it was impossible to use "your fittings to be impossible to suicide gank"

Nobody disagrees with that.

Further stating that that means fitting a tank is useless is pants-on-head idiocy.

A POS can be Suicide Ganked. I have never, ever, ever heard of someone doing so (POS Mods, yes, the tower, No). Fitting a tank clearly has some deterrent effect.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Richard Desturned
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#109 - 2012-06-09 19:34:33 UTC
Yuda Mann wrote:
that's what hello kitty online is for.


in HKO we burned down some dude's farm and killed his livestock for kicks and proceeded to salt the earth

****'s hardcore

(not really)

npc alts have no opinions worth consideration
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#110 - 2012-06-09 19:35:53 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Morganta wrote:


apparently you don't read so well
nobody said its impossible to tank against one guy in highsec, I said quite the opposite
"a tanked hulk is about as good as nothing to anything more then a single ganker"

what I said is anything more than that is impossible due to restricted CPU and grid and the notion expressed by people who gank in groups, that tank will help, is very misleading.

I'll forget your slip up since you are apparently one of the new recruits and don't know when your calling one of your own allies a bear Roll


Tanking your Hulk will make it a breakeven (at best) proposition to gank you. Especially in the higher security bands.
30k EHP vs ~600dps*20s(CONCORD response in .5) per 5m ISK Catalyst means 3 Catalysts are needed to gank you (4 if you use ECM drones).
Your Hulk is likely to drop 10m in loot and 10m in salvage. Without the GSF bounty, that's a breakeven gank. With it, it's 2.5m Isk per pilot.

An untanked Hulk only costs 2 catalysts worth 10m to guarantee a gank and the gang can be hitting 2 targets per 15min gcc cycle instead of 1.

Flying your mining ship actively and avoiding gankers all together is an even better option.


yes, of course it is

Just don't be so quick to attack any suggestion that the system could be improved a little to allow for a touch more diversity
it doesn't mean "mining should be safer"
miners should have to use all the tools available to them to survive just like the rest of us, they just seem to have a pretty ****** toolkit
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#111 - 2012-06-09 19:38:46 UTC
Morganta wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Morganta wrote:


apparently you don't read so well
nobody said its impossible to tank against one guy in highsec, I said quite the opposite
"a tanked hulk is about as good as nothing to anything more then a single ganker"

what I said is anything more than that is impossible due to restricted CPU and grid and the notion expressed by people who gank in groups, that tank will help, is very misleading.

I'll forget your slip up since you are apparently one of the new recruits and don't know when your calling one of your own allies a bear Roll


Tanking your Hulk will make it a breakeven (at best) proposition to gank you. Especially in the higher security bands.
30k EHP vs ~600dps*20s(CONCORD response in .5) per 5m ISK Catalyst means 3 Catalysts are needed to gank you (4 if you use ECM drones).
Your Hulk is likely to drop 10m in loot and 10m in salvage. Without the GSF bounty, that's a breakeven gank. With it, it's 2.5m Isk per pilot.

An untanked Hulk only costs 2 catalysts worth 10m to guarantee a gank and the gang can be hitting 2 targets per 15min gcc cycle instead of 1.

Flying your mining ship actively and avoiding gankers all together is an even better option.


yes, of course it is

Just don't be so quick to attack any suggestion that the system could be improved a little to allow for a touch more diversity
it doesn't mean "mining should be safer"
miners should have to use all the tools available to them to survive just like the rest of us, they just seem to have a pretty ****** toolkit


Posting to confirm that there is plenty of time to gank a Hulk if it mines aligned and warps on neutral or red contact.

The CFC controls TiDi and we make sure every aligned Hulk gets TiDi'd to ****.
ashley Eoner
#112 - 2012-06-09 20:20:07 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Morganta wrote:


apparently you don't read so well
nobody said its impossible to tank against one guy in highsec, I said quite the opposite
"a tanked hulk is about as good as nothing to anything more then a single ganker"

what I said is anything more than that is impossible due to restricted CPU and grid and the notion expressed by people who gank in groups, that tank will help, is very misleading.

I'll forget your slip up since you are apparently one of the new recruits and don't know when your calling one of your own allies a bear Roll


Tanking your Hulk will make it a breakeven (at best) proposition to gank you. Especially in the higher security bands.
30k EHP vs ~600dps*20s(CONCORD response in .5) per 5m ISK Catalyst means 3 Catalysts are needed to gank you (4 if you use ECM drones).
Your Hulk is likely to drop 10m in loot and 10m in salvage. Without the GSF bounty, that's a breakeven gank. With it, it's 2.5m Isk per pilot.

An untanked Hulk only costs 2 catalysts worth 10m to guarantee a gank and the gang can be hitting 2 targets per 15min gcc cycle instead of 1.

Flying your mining ship actively and avoiding gankers all together is an even better option.
catalyst should be doing over 700 DPS hot and you can force extend the response time of concord to well beyond 20 seconds in .5 space. Come on people learn a little or at least do a little testing before making comments about stuff.

An untanked hulk is easy prey for a well setup catalyst even in .9 space (1.0 space should be easy too but it's no guarantee).
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2012-06-09 20:21:47 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Morganta wrote:


apparently you don't read so well
nobody said its impossible to tank against one guy in highsec, I said quite the opposite
"a tanked hulk is about as good as nothing to anything more then a single ganker"

what I said is anything more than that is impossible due to restricted CPU and grid and the notion expressed by people who gank in groups, that tank will help, is very misleading.

I'll forget your slip up since you are apparently one of the new recruits and don't know when your calling one of your own allies a bear Roll


Tanking your Hulk will make it a breakeven (at best) proposition to gank you. Especially in the higher security bands.
30k EHP vs ~600dps*20s(CONCORD response in .5) per 5m ISK Catalyst means 3 Catalysts are needed to gank you (4 if you use ECM drones).
Your Hulk is likely to drop 10m in loot and 10m in salvage. Without the GSF bounty, that's a breakeven gank. With it, it's 2.5m Isk per pilot.

An untanked Hulk only costs 2 catalysts worth 10m to guarantee a gank and the gang can be hitting 2 targets per 15min gcc cycle instead of 1.

Flying your mining ship actively and avoiding gankers all together is an even better option.
catalyst should be doing over 700 DPS hot and you can force extend the response time of concord to well beyond 20 seconds in .5 space. Come on people learn a little or at least do a little testing before making comments about stuff.

An untanked hulk is easy prey for a well setup catalyst even in .9 space (1.0 space should be easy too but it's no guarantee).

Again, not if it also mines aligned.

Do bears just not have the ability to string together multiple complete thoughts?

How hard is it to press the align button?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#114 - 2012-06-09 20:26:17 UTC
Disregard That wrote:

Again, not if it also mines aligned.

Do bears just not have the ability to string together multiple complete thoughts?

How hard is it to press the align button?


About as hard as fitting a tank it would seem.
ashley Eoner
#115 - 2012-06-09 20:33:41 UTC  |  Edited by: ashley Eoner
Disregard That wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Morganta wrote:


apparently you don't read so well
nobody said its impossible to tank against one guy in highsec, I said quite the opposite
"a tanked hulk is about as good as nothing to anything more then a single ganker"

what I said is anything more than that is impossible due to restricted CPU and grid and the notion expressed by people who gank in groups, that tank will help, is very misleading.

I'll forget your slip up since you are apparently one of the new recruits and don't know when your calling one of your own allies a bear Roll


Tanking your Hulk will make it a breakeven (at best) proposition to gank you. Especially in the higher security bands.
30k EHP vs ~600dps*20s(CONCORD response in .5) per 5m ISK Catalyst means 3 Catalysts are needed to gank you (4 if you use ECM drones).
Your Hulk is likely to drop 10m in loot and 10m in salvage. Without the GSF bounty, that's a breakeven gank. With it, it's 2.5m Isk per pilot.

An untanked Hulk only costs 2 catalysts worth 10m to guarantee a gank and the gang can be hitting 2 targets per 15min gcc cycle instead of 1.

Flying your mining ship actively and avoiding gankers all together is an even better option.
catalyst should be doing over 700 DPS hot and you can force extend the response time of concord to well beyond 20 seconds in .5 space. Come on people learn a little or at least do a little testing before making comments about stuff.

An untanked hulk is easy prey for a well setup catalyst even in .9 space (1.0 space should be easy too but it's no guarantee).

Again, not if it also mines aligned.

Do bears just not have the ability to string together multiple complete thoughts?

How hard is it to press the align button?
What are you going to do aligned? Sit there and wish you could warp cause you're webbed? Are you seriously advocating the usage of warp core stabilizers now? Even with stabilizers in the 30 seconds it takes for your hulk to get to full speed concord is already there. Are all nullbears this bad at the game or just you?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#116 - 2012-06-09 20:35:19 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
what are you going to do aligned? Sit there and wish you could warp cause you're webbed? Are you seriously advocating the usage of warp core stabilizers now? Even with stabilizers in the 30 seconds it takes for your hulk to get to full speed concord is already there. Are all nullbears this stupid or just you?


You dont sit still stupid.
Greyscale Dash
Doomheim
#117 - 2012-06-09 20:35:20 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
What are you going to do aligned? Sit there and wish you could warp cause you're webbed? Are you seriously advocating the usage of warp core stabilizers now? Even with stabilizers in the 30 seconds it takes for your hulk to get to full speed concord is already there. Are all nullbears this bad at the game or just you?


You remind me of someone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7ScG8kUqrY
ashley Eoner
#118 - 2012-06-09 20:36:12 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
what are you going to do aligned? Sit there and wish you could warp cause you're webbed? Are you seriously advocating the usage of warp core stabilizers now? Even with stabilizers in the 30 seconds it takes for your hulk to get to full speed concord is already there. Are all nullbears this stupid or just you?


You dont sit still stupid.
You going to orbit the asteroid while aligned somehow? You going to do fly past mining? Seriously?
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2012-06-09 20:37:16 UTC
One of these days when your brain cells recover from the apparent dehydration, take your Hulk out to an asteroid belt and align it to the station of your choice. Activate your lasers and watch them work.

As you begin to move out of range of your first rock (this should take some time as the Hulk is not a speed machine) you can lock another rock and begin harvesting that one. Rinse and repeat as you align.

Now pretend for a moment that a nasty fleet of gankers warps in and lands on you. Press the warp button.

See how long it takes you to get into warp? You are also not targetable during that time.

So no, I am not advocating WCS. I'm asking you and your kind to learn to play Eve.

Play Eve your way. But still, learn how to play.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2012-06-09 20:37:55 UTC
ashley Eoner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
ashley Eoner wrote:
what are you going to do aligned? Sit there and wish you could warp cause you're webbed? Are you seriously advocating the usage of warp core stabilizers now? Even with stabilizers in the 30 seconds it takes for your hulk to get to full speed concord is already there. Are all nullbears this stupid or just you?


You dont sit still stupid.
You going to orbit the asteroid while aligned somehow? You going to do fly past mining? Seriously?


If you are orbiting then you are not aligned are you?

Strip miners have a 15km range, make use of it.