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Third Party Neutral Needed
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Saint Cuervo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-06-07 23:03:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Saint Cuervo
My business partner doesn't trust me. And I don't trust him either!

So we need to build trust. Here is my idea:

Step 1: I make a promise to my partner.
Step 2: I post a cash bond with a third party who doesn't know either of us (e.g. you).
Step 3: If I keep my promise, you return the bond to me (less 10% for yourself).
Step 4: If I break my promise, you give the bond to my partner (less 10% for yourself).

Now obviously I need someone trustworthy to be the third party neutral.

I think someone involved in the bond markets in this forum would be ideal. You are able to sell bonds because you have a good reputation. If you kept my money, I could report it in this forum and you would have a hard time raising money from other investors in the future. Also the amounts in question will probably be less than one billion isk, so it wouldn't be worth losing your bond trading career over such a small amount.

If you are interested in serving as my third party neutral, please post below and tell me about your experience with the bond market: how often do you float bonds? have you ever held collateral for people? etc.

I will only consider people who have signifiant experience in the bond markets.

Thanks.
-SC
Ariana DeSoto
High-Tech Duct Tape
#2 - 2012-06-07 23:11:12 UTC
I can help you out with this. Feel free to give me a convo.

I don't always play EvE, but when I do, I prefer it to be a masochistic sandbox hell. Stay wardecked my friends.
Saint Cuervo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-06-08 04:07:28 UTC
Ariana DeSoto wrote:
I can help you out with this. Feel free to give me a convo.


I see you refunded your investors on a bond you floated when RL took you out of EVE for a while. That is good to know. I will contact you shortly. If other people are willing to serve as my third pary neutrals, please let me know.
Ariana DeSoto
High-Tech Duct Tape
#4 - 2012-06-08 04:19:50 UTC
Saint Cuervo wrote:
Ariana DeSoto wrote:
I can help you out with this. Feel free to give me a convo.


I see you refunded your investors on a bond you floated when RL took you out of EVE for a while. That is good to know. I will contact you shortly. If other people are willing to serve as my third pary neutrals, please let me know.


Here is another one that was successful:

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1386805#post1386805

I don't always play EvE, but when I do, I prefer it to be a masochistic sandbox hell. Stay wardecked my friends.
Tom Hagen
Twilight Empire
#5 - 2012-06-08 06:22:03 UTC
I don't know what kind of promise it is you have in mind. But unless it is easily tracked through the API key I would be wary, and already before hand decide how any dispute is handled.

I would point you towards Vaerah Vahrokha, since he has probably the most experience in sifting through information in his audits and probably a huge interest to come to a fair ruling in any kind of dispute.

Also, although I like what the Goons are doing for the player community (filling it with content) and several of them seems to have some kind of E-honor.
Keep in mind they come with a certain reputation. I have no direct experience of it though, but a shred of truth is probably there.

Sorry Ariana DeSoto it is nothing personal :-(

I kind of different suggestion. If the amount is less than a billion, and some details in what kind of transaction is needed and who is involved, and as I mentioned earlier easily tracked.
I could go in as an insurance between you, and guarantee the transaction. This mean if one of you rip the other of I will pay out the difference to the other party. If the transaction goes well, you pay me the insurance fee.

Its not that much ISK and I don't want to be bother with sending ISK back and forth unless it is really necessary, this would be just like any unsecured bond I have filled in the past, but without an ISK transaction before everything goes to hell ;-)
And you get to keep your ISK in your wallet..

Of course that would mean you would have to trust me :-P
Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-06-08 08:12:15 UTC
Saint Cuervo wrote:
Ariana DeSoto wrote:
I can help you out with this. Feel free to give me a convo.


I see you refunded your investors on a bond you floated when RL took you out of EVE for a while. That is good to know. I will contact you shortly. If other people are willing to serve as my third pary neutrals, please let me know.

Recently Ariana has been a little too impressed with Tickles' posts for my taste... invested for lols, got a refund but would not invest again.

Chribba or VV would be more solid choices in my opinion.

.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#7 - 2012-06-08 11:08:41 UTC
Saint Cuervo wrote:
My business partner doesn't trust me. And I don't trust him either!

So we need to build trust. Here is my idea:

Step 1: I make a promise to my partner.
Step 2: I post a cash bond with a third party who doesn't know either of us (e.g. you).
Step 3: If I keep my promise, you return the bond to me (less 10% for yourself).
Step 4: If I break my promise, you give the bond to my partner (less 10% for yourself).

Now obviously I need someone trustworthy to be the third party neutral.

I think someone involved in the bond markets in this forum would be ideal. You are able to sell bonds because you have a good reputation. If you kept my money, I could report it in this forum and you would have a hard time raising money from other investors in the future. Also the amounts in question will probably be less than one billion isk, so it wouldn't be worth losing your bond trading career over such a small amount.

If you are interested in serving as my third party neutral, please post below and tell me about your experience with the bond market: how often do you float bonds? have you ever held collateral for people? etc.

I will only consider people who have signifiant experience in the bond markets.

Thanks.
-SC


Hello, I am interested at holding collateral for this bond.

Feel free to use any search engine or my audits section of my website or search for contracts in that website. You'll find as many references as you wish, to collateral holding, investments, collateral grading and actuarial evaluation.

If you wish to use of my services please feel free to eve-mail me, indicating your preferences in terms of collateral holding and management.

Best regards,
Vaerah

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Saint Cuervo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2012-06-08 15:06:42 UTC
Thank you for the additional responses.

In answer to Tom's question: this is something that can be tracked through an API and I am willing to give the bond holder my API key so he or she can independently confirm that I have done what I said I would do. So compliance shouldn't be a big issue. If I send my partner a certain amount of money by a certain time, I get my bond back. If I don't send the money, my partner gets the bond.

Insurance is an interesting alternative.

I need to discuss this scheme with my partner and I will get back in touch with one of you in the next couple of days.

Thanks for all the offers and advice.

-SC
Claire Voyant
#9 - 2012-06-08 17:54:42 UTC
I agree that verifying compliance should not be a huge issue. If the two partners can't agree that the deal was closed out properly, the 3rd party keeps them money. That way you have removed the incentive to screw over the other person (unless it is just for spite in which case they probably shouldn't be business partners.)

And of course, the transaction could be verified through the API in the case of a dispute, but would not be required if both parties acted honorably.

If the money is being returned to the same character that gave it to the third party (to avoid money laundering issues) the 10% fee for the third party seems awfully high. If I had to resolve a dispute through the API I would charge more, but for a smooth transaction this seems excessive. Part of me wonders if something fishy is going on.
Saint Cuervo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2012-06-08 19:08:53 UTC
Claire Voyant wrote:
I agree that verifying compliance should not be a huge issue. If the two partners can't agree that the deal was closed out properly, the 3rd party keeps them money. That way you have removed the incentive to screw over the other person (unless it is just for spite in which case they probably shouldn't be business partners.)

And of course, the transaction could be verified through the API in the case of a dispute, but would not be required if both parties acted honorably.

If the money is being returned to the same character that gave it to the third party (to avoid money laundering issues) the 10% fee for the third party seems awfully high. If I had to resolve a dispute through the API I would charge more, but for a smooth transaction this seems excessive. Part of me wonders if something fishy is going on.


Oh nothing fishy is going on! (But doesn't everybody say that?)

I just pulled 10% off the top of my head. I had a guy EVE-mail me who offered to do it for 8%! If you want to offer to do it for less, Claire, I will certainly consider it. I don't know what the going rate for this kind of service is so 10% seemed right to me -- nice round number and all...

The problem we have is a performance issue. I need my partner to perform. He wants me to pay him. I'm not going to pay him before performance because I don't trust him. He's not going to perform before payment because he doesn't trust me. So I came up with the idea of having a trustworthy third party hold some money in escrow so that my partner would know, that even if I stiff him on the payment, he has a good chance of collecting on the bond I posted (assuming that the bond-holder is trustworthy).

(I think I want this deal to happen more than my partner does which is why I'm doing all the leg work to get this thing set up.)

I don't think compliance is an issue. I'm trying to keep the deal itself between me and my partner secret but his performance pretty much has to be all or nothing. He will either tender perfect performance or he won't tender anything at all. I can't think of a way he could tender partial performance. If he tenders, I will pay him. If he doesn't tender, there is no deal. A third party neutral would find it very easy to determine if he has tendered. And my API would confirm that I have sent in payment. That is all that will be required in terms of compliance.
Saint Cuervo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-06-08 19:25:02 UTC
I know I'm new to this forum and EVE is a suspicious place but actually I'm a little offended. I don't like the insinuation that this is something fishy. I'm trying to keep my deal secret but that is all. I outlined how this would go down:

* I give my money to a third party
* That third party holds my money
* If my partner tenders and I pay him, I get my money back (less a fee)
* If my partner tenders and I stiff him, my partner gets my money (less a fee)
* If my partner doesn't tender, I get my money back (less a fee)

At no time will the third party neutral ever give any of his or her own isk to me or my partner. The only money being moved around is my own money. I'm assuming most of the risk here. The neutral could be unfaithful and run off with my money. My partner may or may not tender. I'm assuming the risk here.

I don't appreciate being called "fishy." You do have to trust me that what my partner has to do is something easy to verify but, other than that, I am putting my money where my mouth is. My money is the only money on the line in this deal.

-SC
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#12 - 2012-06-08 19:31:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Vaerah Vahrokha
Saint Cuervo wrote:


If the money is being returned to the same character that gave it to the third party (to avoid money laundering issues) the 10% fee for the third party seems awfully high. If I had to resolve a dispute through the API I would charge more, but for a smooth transaction this seems excessive. Part of me wonders if something fishy is going on.



1) Please recall that you generally get what you pay for. And recall that you did not inform yourself on the price at all.

2) Make sure to pick a really trusted party. This is EvE after all.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Saint Cuervo
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-06-08 20:49:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Saint Cuervo
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:

1) Please recall that you generally get what you pay for. And recall that you did not inform yourself on the price at all.


This is very true. And I would say to you the inverse of what I told Claire: if you want more than 10% to do the job just tell me and I will consider it along with the other offers. I understand that I will get what I pay for and I would rather have an honest, happy broker than a broker who thinks I am underpaying him or her. The broker who thinks he or she is underpaid will probably be less likely to give me back my money!

Help me find the correct price for this transaction. If 10% is too low, just say so. To be honest, I thought 10% was a little on the generous side.

-SC
Ariana DeSoto
High-Tech Duct Tape
#14 - 2012-06-08 21:02:36 UTC
This turned into a fun thread. Cool

I don't always play EvE, but when I do, I prefer it to be a masochistic sandbox hell. Stay wardecked my friends.
Tom Hagen
Twilight Empire
#15 - 2012-06-08 21:17:48 UTC
Just for future reference, I am the most honest person I know.. Of course that don't mean much to anyone of you ;-P

To me it sounds like you should go with VV anyway.

Good luck and have fun!