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Why some of us don't PVP as much as we'd like to, and what can be done to fix that.
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#61 - 2012-06-08 15:56:07 UTC
Seriously, you lose at MOSTa couple of hours of skill training when you use an implant-free jumpclone for a day.

I've gone days without replacing my implants when I got podded with them in my head. Sheer laziness. I'm not THAT in need of SPs.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Marlona Sky
State War Academy
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-06-08 15:59:35 UTC
Remove clone upgrade cost completely! It is a mechanic that has aged terribly. Just remove it already.
Cloned S0ul
POCKOCMOC Inc.
#63 - 2012-06-08 16:02:03 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:


Why some of us don't PVP as much as we'd like to, and what can be done to fix that.



Because most good ships are expensive even they cool they got paper tank also factor cost - survive chance is very low in this game, i have hac, heavy dicrors, recons, logi and meny more multiple rases on lvl 5, but personaly i cant aford them in mass pvp or often usage even solo.

Some medium t2 ships cost around 200mil isk or more like onyx 230mil come on ;/ for some reason i dont get sense of train them while people cant aford them easy, not everyone is hardcore rich person in eve, some of you said well use cheap ships... But i dont like cheap ships while im able to use good ships but they to expensive...
Virgil Travis
Non Constructive Self Management
#64 - 2012-06-08 16:04:08 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
Oh, and by the way, I don't mind losing an expensive ship, but losing an expensive clone and LOSING SKILL POINTS AS A RESULT, pisses me off.

Why?

Because SP, unlike ISK, can't be recovered, your character will be permanently ******** once you start losing SP.

This is especially bad on my main, who is missing 60 million SP because I had to quit Eve for a total of 2 years in increments, because RL was all over the place for a while.

So not only is my main missing a **** TON of SP, but now I have to worry about losing SP when I PVP, because in 0.0, pod death is almost unavoidable.

This causes me to not even feel like PVPing at all, for fear that i will lose even more SP.

I REPEAT.

ISK is NOT a problem, SP is, and removing attribute clones and just giving everyone +5 or just removing attributes altogether, would FIX that fear.

Also, the main reason people quit this game is because they are not having fun, because they are spending hours upon hours they would spend on having fun recovering their losses instead, SP loss and learning implant loss is a major contributor to this.

If you can't see that you are blind or stupid.

Also, not all of us buy PLEX.


do you actually play this game?


I don't think so, by the sounds of it he's playing Progress Quest. It's not the implants stopping you from doing pvp, it's you, plain and simple. Your own compulsion to maintain the top rate of training is hampering your ability to just ditch the implants for a while and go shoot and be shot. Some people believe that skill points are everything in this game, they'd be surprised to learn that player experience counts for more.

Unified Church of the Unobligated - madness in the method Mamma didn't raise no victims.
Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#65 - 2012-06-08 16:06:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Viktor Goldheart
Virgil Travis wrote:
Morganta wrote:
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
Oh, and by the way, I don't mind losing an expensive ship, but losing an expensive clone and LOSING SKILL POINTS AS A RESULT, pisses me off.

Why?

Because SP, unlike ISK, can't be recovered, your character will be permanently ******** once you start losing SP.

This is especially bad on my main, who is missing 60 million SP because I had to quit Eve for a total of 2 years in increments, because RL was all over the place for a while.

So not only is my main missing a **** TON of SP, but now I have to worry about losing SP when I PVP, because in 0.0, pod death is almost unavoidable.

This causes me to not even feel like PVPing at all, for fear that i will lose even more SP.

I REPEAT.

ISK is NOT a problem, SP is, and removing attribute clones and just giving everyone +5 or just removing attributes altogether, would FIX that fear.

Also, the main reason people quit this game is because they are not having fun, because they are spending hours upon hours they would spend on having fun recovering their losses instead, SP loss and learning implant loss is a major contributor to this.

If you can't see that you are blind or stupid.

Also, not all of us buy PLEX.


do you actually play this game?


I don't think so, by the sounds of it he's playing Progress Quest. It's not the implants stopping you from doing pvp, it's you, plain and simple. Your own compulsion to maintain the top rate of training is hampering your ability to just ditch the implants for a while and go shoot and be shot. Some people believe that skill points are everything in this game, they'd be surprised to learn that player experience counts for more.


Yeah, pretty much, I guess.

But yeah, if we didn't have those damn implants or the whole attribute system for that matter, I wouldn't have to worry about that.

It's totally keeping me from wanting to properly PVP, I am ISK broke enough as it is, and unlike some people I don't agree with buying plex for isk, because then what is the point of playing the game? Might as well play on the test server.
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#66 - 2012-06-08 16:13:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Sid Hudgens
WTF difference does it make that you're training slightly slower than some PVE-only toon who never changes jump clones? You obviously won't be facing them in PVP. If you are so OCD that you can't bear to think that you're not training at the maximum possible rate that is no reason to change the game for everyone else.

I've never had anything better than +3s... and I've quit EVE for a while ... maybe I can put in a petition to recover all of those "lost" skill points ... what do you think?

I agree that implants will tend to make NEW players less likely to PVP because of the stupid-long grind to get standings for jump clones. I couldn't care less about experienced players who know what they're doing and have access to jump clones but are too lazy or OCD to use them.

I would support two changes in this area:

1. Change the jump clone timer to be distance based. If you jump to a clone in the same system the cooldown is only an hour. If you jump across the universe you get the full 24 hours.

2. Lower standings requirements for jump clones, or give everyone an additional jump clone slot that requires less standings and can only contain a clone with no implants. A throw-away clone if you will. Or some more clever variation on this that allows newer players who can't easily afford to replace their shiny new implants easy access to a pvp clone.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
freynerex
Doomheim
#67 - 2012-06-08 16:15:50 UTC
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#68 - 2012-06-08 16:17:10 UTC
Virgil Travis wrote:
Zyress wrote:
Virgil Travis wrote:

That's the real crux of the issue here I reckon, you're more concerned about what someone else is doing. I don't care if someone else has all +5s all the time and is training faster than me, Let go of that and it really doesn't matter much any more.


Had an animal house moment there... It just doesn't matter! It just doesn't matter! LoL


It just doesn't matterLol


You're right, I mixed up my movie refrences.
Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#69 - 2012-06-08 16:18:03 UTC
Sid Hudgens wrote:
WTF difference does it make that you're training slightly slower than some PVE-only toon who never changes jump clones? You obviously won't be facing them in PVP. If you are so OCD that you can't bear to think that you're not training at the maximum possible rate that is no reason to change the game for everyone else.

I've never had anything better than +3s... and I've quit EVE for a while ... maybe I can put in a petition to recover all of those "lost" skill points ... what do you think?

I agree that implants will tend to make NEW players less likely to PVP because of the stupid-long grind to get standings for jump clones. I couldn't care less about experienced players who know what they're doing and have access to jump clones but are too lazy or OCD to use them.

I would support two changes in this area:

1. Change the jump clone timer to be distance based. If you jump to a clone in the same system the cooldown is only an hour. If you jump across the universe you get the full 24 hours.

2. Lower standings requirements for jump clones, or give everyone an additional jump clone slot that requires less standings and can only contain a clone with no implants. A throw-away clone if you will. Or some more clever variation on this that allows newer players who can't easily afford to replace their shiny new implants easy access to a pvp clone.



Slightly slower?

Dude, do this...

Make a skill plan in EveMon, and add 800 days worth of skills.

Then, use that option that shows training with implants as opposed to without.

You CANNOT POSSIBLY tell me that the 120+ day difference is "slightly slower".

120 days is a LOT of ******* time, time that I would have some **** I need trained, as opposed to not having it.
Lucy Ferrr
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#70 - 2012-06-08 16:18:24 UTC
There is some merit to what the OP said. Even if his post spawned from bad intentions, frustration from a personal pod loss, that doesn't mean what he says is not true. Go to high-sec and run some missions with some noobs. Running lvl 4's with new people not only grants you good Karma, but you can get the prospective of Eve from the eyes of a new person. (Plus it's fun to hear someone get really excited over 10mil isk.) You will find that implants are a huge deterrent for new people to pvp. Many people feel that they need to wear implants around the clock because they are soooo far behind in SP from everyone else. Without an experienced player guiding a noob through the skill tree, it can become very daunting. If one specializes they can become quite effective in a single ship quite quick, but this is not always seen through the eyes of the new person.
Sid Hudgens
Doomheim
#71 - 2012-06-08 16:23:44 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
Sid Hudgens wrote:
WTF difference does it make that you're training slightly slower than some PVE-only toon who never changes jump clones? You obviously won't be facing them in PVP. If you are so OCD that you can't bear to think that you're not training at the maximum possible rate that is no reason to change the game for everyone else.

I've never had anything better than +3s... and I've quit EVE for a while ... maybe I can put in a petition to recover all of those "lost" skill points ... what do you think?

I agree that implants will tend to make NEW players less likely to PVP because of the stupid-long grind to get standings for jump clones. I couldn't care less about experienced players who know what they're doing and have access to jump clones but are too lazy or OCD to use them.

I would support two changes in this area:

1. Change the jump clone timer to be distance based. If you jump to a clone in the same system the cooldown is only an hour. If you jump across the universe you get the full 24 hours.

2. Lower standings requirements for jump clones, or give everyone an additional jump clone slot that requires less standings and can only contain a clone with no implants. A throw-away clone if you will. Or some more clever variation on this that allows newer players who can't easily afford to replace their shiny new implants easy access to a pvp clone.



Slightly slower?

Dude, do this...

Make a skill plan in EveMon, and add 800 days worth of skills.

Then, use that option that shows training with implants as opposed to without.

You CANNOT POSSIBLY tell me that the 120+ day difference is "slightly slower".

120 days is a LOT of ******* time, time that I would have some **** I need trained, as opposed to not having it.


Taking 120 days off of an 800 day plan is 15% ... so let's assume you're switching back and forth from your pve to pvp clones fairly evenly meaning you'll only be losing half that time. So you're training 7.5% slower. And that is assuming that you don't keep a set of +2 or +3 implants in your pvp clone! To my thinking that is slightly slower.

"....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced."
Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#72 - 2012-06-08 16:23:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Viktor Goldheart
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
There is some merit to what the OP said. Even if his post spawned from bad intentions, frustration from a personal pod loss, that doesn't mean what he says is not true. Go to high-sec and run some missions with some noobs. Running lvl 4's with new people not only grants you good Karma, but you can get the prospective of Eve from the eyes of a new person. (Plus it's fun to hear someone get really excited over 10mil isk.) You will find that implants are a huge deterrent for new people to pvp. Many people feel that they need to wear implants around the clock because they are soooo far behind in SP from everyone else. Without an experienced player guiding a noob through the skill tree, it can become very daunting. If one specializes they can become quite effective in a single ship quite quick, but this is not always seen through the eyes of the new person.


Actually, I have not lost a pod in err 760 days.

But that's only because a few lost +4 clones in a row back then have turned me into a SB pilot, which caused me to not lose a pod in ages.

Still, I would much rather be in a BC or BS or dread or interceptor or HAC. But I can't because of fear of losing my pod again (due to bubbles).

As a matter of fact, all I would need is for pods to be made immune to bubbles.

I don't mind having to pod run 30 jumps to get back home, as long as I am not pretty much guaranteed to get podded after my ship explodes in a bubble, it's bullshit.

Getting podded and podding someone should be a challenge, not ******* shooting fish in a barrel.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#73 - 2012-06-08 16:25:12 UTC
Basically you want to trivialize the clone/implants system. Death must have a meaning. HTFU.

The Tears Must Flow
Morganta
The Greater Goon
#74 - 2012-06-08 16:29:13 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
There is some merit to what the OP said. Even if his post spawned from bad intentions, frustration from a personal pod loss, that doesn't mean what he says is not true. Go to high-sec and run some missions with some noobs. Running lvl 4's with new people not only grants you good Karma, but you can get the prospective of Eve from the eyes of a new person. (Plus it's fun to hear someone get really excited over 10mil isk.) You will find that implants are a huge deterrent for new people to pvp. Many people feel that they need to wear implants around the clock because they are soooo far behind in SP from everyone else. Without an experienced player guiding a noob through the skill tree, it can become very daunting. If one specializes they can become quite effective in a single ship quite quick, but this is not always seen through the eyes of the new person.


Actually, I have not lost a pod in err 760 days.

But that's only because a few lost +4 clones in a row back then have turned me into a SB pilot, which caused me to not lose a pod in ages.

Still, I would much rather be in a BC or BS or dread or interceptor or HAC. But I can't because of fear of losing my pod again.



yeah... a set of +5 certainly cost more than that dread does
Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#75 - 2012-06-08 16:37:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Viktor Goldheart
Vaju Enki wrote:
Basically you want to trivialize the clone/implants system. Death must have a meaning. HTFU.


Death has enough meaning when I lose my ship and everything on it, no need to **** up my skill plan with an antique **** game play mechanic that didn't age well at all.

I understand losing a hardwire combat clone, because it actually gave me an advantage in PVP, but ******* LEARNING IMPLANTS? Give me a break.
Viktor Goldheart
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-06-08 16:41:29 UTC
Morganta wrote:
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
Lucy Ferrr wrote:
There is some merit to what the OP said. Even if his post spawned from bad intentions, frustration from a personal pod loss, that doesn't mean what he says is not true. Go to high-sec and run some missions with some noobs. Running lvl 4's with new people not only grants you good Karma, but you can get the prospective of Eve from the eyes of a new person. (Plus it's fun to hear someone get really excited over 10mil isk.) You will find that implants are a huge deterrent for new people to pvp. Many people feel that they need to wear implants around the clock because they are soooo far behind in SP from everyone else. Without an experienced player guiding a noob through the skill tree, it can become very daunting. If one specializes they can become quite effective in a single ship quite quick, but this is not always seen through the eyes of the new person.


Actually, I have not lost a pod in err 760 days.

But that's only because a few lost +4 clones in a row back then have turned me into a SB pilot, which caused me to not lose a pod in ages.

Still, I would much rather be in a BC or BS or dread or interceptor or HAC. But I can't because of fear of losing my pod again.



yeah... a set of +5 certainly cost more than that dread does


No, but it adds to a loss that shouldn't be there...

I don't mind losing the ship, and all the mods in it, because those things were offensive, hell, I don't even mind losing a slave set, because it actually ******* did me some good in PVP, but a learning clone? Completely ******* useless loss, it should not be linked to PVP at all.

It seriously feels like taking hulks to PVP and then losing them.

I am FORCED to take that thing, or I train way slower. I wouldn't take a hulk to PVP, why would I want to take learning implants?

Just remove the damn things, they are an extra un needed loss.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#77 - 2012-06-08 16:46:03 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:
Vaju Enki wrote:
Basically you want to trivialize the clone/implants system. Death must have a meaning. HTFU.


Death has enough meaning when I lose my ship and everything on it, no need to **** up my skill plan with an antique **** game play mechanic that didn't age well at all.

I understand losing a hardwire combat clone, because it actually gave me an advantage in PVP, but ******* LEARNING IMPLANTS? Give me a break.


That's your opinion. Don't use learning implants if you don't want to lose them.

The Tears Must Flow
ArmyOfMe
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#78 - 2012-06-08 16:50:35 UTC
Viktor Goldheart wrote:


What I do care about is my wallet being 300 mils more empty every time I lose a Stealth Bomber or a Drake.

Can i have your stuff?
Seriously, can i?

dont fly what u cant afford to lose etc etc.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.
Josef Djugashvilis
#79 - 2012-06-08 17:04:54 UTC
Implants are like ships, don't use what you can't afford to lose.

This is not a signature.
Dakeen Kurvora
Doomheim
#80 - 2012-06-08 17:13:53 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Implants are like ships, don't use what you can't afford to lose.


About that statement... how long is one suppose to float around in a frigate with zero impants? I got a 30m caracal like 90m in implants and 17m in my a wallet =S I take risk I get reward! The whole implant is is sort of "bleh" being +3s take 13 days of my 99 day plan, being at 2m sp and not being able to fly a BC and fly it effective is kinf of a pain. But ya know, I deal with it. Lose a pod buy implants I need at the time and work back the rest. Generally I found I can save 20m by not buying a charisma implant. Don't need one yet.