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Upcoming Further T1 Frig Re-Balancing Discussion

Author
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#1 - 2012-06-08 06:32:13 UTC
So, like everyone I am waiting patiently for all the T1 frigs to get rebalanced (actually more excited about T1 Cruiser but we got to get the T1 Frigs out of the way first), however no information has been released in awhile and I'm getting restless, so I'd like to discuss with the community on what they think about the upcoming balances, how it should be carried out, which ships will be balanced etc etc. I'll keep track of this thread and edit the post to reflect good ideas that everyone seems to agree on.


To start off I'd like to pose a question, we know mining frigs are going to be balanced, the interceptor base model frigs are most probably gonna get balanced as well if they want to stay competitive, but how about T1 scanning frigs? They are quite used in my opinion and currently the only cheap bonused scanning option (correct me if I'm wrong), do you think they are going to be balanced? Do you support the removal of T1 scanning frigs?

Secondly, I'd like people to post their speculation on their favourite frigs and what they think/how they would like them balanced, here's mine:

Caldari
1. Kestrel, extra mid, more PG/CPU, hopefully enough PG to fit Standards + MWD + Long Point + Tank with 1 fitting mod (unlikely cause thats almost 40% buff in PG). Instead of current fail split damage bonus, Kinetic bonus + missile velocity bonus.

2. Bantam converted into the 'sniper' hull, optimal range bonus + damage bonus with 2nd best agility/speed amongst Caldari frigs and a decent tank. Probably a 4/3/3 layout to give it a utility high that other Caldari frigs lack.

3. Condor upgraded to a sort of mini-hookbill style scram range kiter, additional launcher, 4 mids, 3 lows, best speed with the worst tank, double damage bonus, ROF + Kinetic so more dps than a kessie with worse tank, better speed, worse fitting.

Amarr
1. Inquisitor made into a tanky-rocket brawler, Em missile damage bonus + resistance bonus, extra mid.

2. Executioner not too sure, I figure make it a mini slicer with capacitor bonus + optimal bonus and 3/3/4 layout

Gallente
1. Navitas turned into a drone boat similar to Vexor/Domi, 3/3/4 slot layout, 5% drone damage 5% hybrid damage with 2 gunpoint and probbaly 15-20m3 bandwith and 30-40m3 dronebay.

2. Atron I'm not too sure, maybe double damage bonus and a hull hp buff to make it a mini taranis.

Dont wanna speculate on Minmatar cause I'm not really interested in its frigs other than the rifter and thats already fine.

Really appreciate you guys opinion/suggestions and let the discussion commence, I'm hoping something really good
Kaikka Carel
Ziea
#2 - 2012-06-08 08:09:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaikka Carel
Well Bantam looks exactly like an industrial ship and a beautiful one too. How that cargo section can contribute to the fighting potential? IRL conversion would make it a brander or a dronecarrier but CCP aren't "Planet Earth military" so...

It is unlikely that a T1 ship would be allowed to have spare drone bay so I'd expect 20/20 or 25/25 Navitas.

Executioner might step into(or be a stepping stone towards to) Slicer's domain. But one of the features allowing Slicer to be the king of kitting frigs is its strong capacitor. Executioner won't be able to compete in this regard even if given Punisher's capacitor.

And one of the ideas in general is that with tiers gone ships won't need those artificial lame factors like "lower everything". I'd really like to see all frigates:

- 10 total slot layouts. And minimum 3 mids for tackle ships(please no 2 mids on Executioner).
- Have same base CPU/PG within the race.
- Varrying by HP allocation: attack ships have even Shield/Armor and Hull thus depending more on damage control and damage mods rather than tank mods; combat ships having HP allocated mostly in respective tank layer.
- Varrying by bonuses: double damage or damage application(+falloff/+tracking) bonuses for attack and damage bonus+tank bonus for combat.

As for scanning frigs they worked perfectly before with Heron being the best due to highest base CPU and an optimal slot layout allowing to fit a full exploration package. But if they'd be given more slots and fittings that would only make them better and equal grounds for all of them while spare slots may be spent on something else.
Crellion
Nano Rhinos
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#3 - 2012-06-08 08:25:10 UTC
Dato Koppla wrote:
So, like everyone I am waiting patiently for all the T1 frigs to get rebalanced (actually more excited about T1 Cruiser but we got to get the T1 Frigs out of the way first), however no information has been released in awhile and I'm getting restless, so I'd like to discuss with the community on what they think about the upcoming balances, how it should be carried out, which ships will be balanced etc etc. I'll keep track of this thread and edit the post to reflect good ideas that everyone seems to agree on.


To start off I'd like to pose a question, we know mining frigs are going to be balanced, the interceptor base model frigs are most probably gonna get balanced as well if they want to stay competitive, but how about T1 scanning frigs? They are quite used in my opinion and currently the only cheap bonused scanning option (correct me if I'm wrong), do you think they are going to be balanced? Do you support the removal of T1 scanning frigs?

Secondly, I'd like people to post their speculation on their favourite frigs and what they think/how they would like them balanced, here's mine:

Caldari
1. Kestrel, extra mid, more PG/CPU, hopefully enough PG to fit Standards + MWD + Long Point + Tank with 1 fitting mod (unlikely cause thats almost 40% buff in PG). Instead of current fail split damage bonus, Kinetic bonus + missile velocity bonus.

2. Bantam converted into the 'sniper' hull, optimal range bonus + damage bonus with 2nd best agility/speed amongst Caldari frigs and a decent tank. Probably a 4/3/3 layout to give it a utility high that other Caldari frigs lack.

3. Condor upgraded to a sort of mini-hookbill style scram range kiter, additional launcher, 4 mids, 3 lows, best speed with the worst tank, double damage bonus, ROF + Kinetic so more dps than a kessie with worse tank, better speed, worse fitting.

Amarr
1. Inquisitor made into a tanky-rocket brawler, Em missile damage bonus + resistance bonus, extra mid.

2. Executioner not too sure, I figure make it a mini slicer with capacitor bonus + optimal bonus and 3/3/4 layout

Gallente
1. Navitas turned into a drone boat similar to Vexor/Domi, 3/3/4 slot layout, 5% drone damage 5% hybrid damage with 2 gunpoint and probbaly 15-20m3 bandwith and 30-40m3 dronebay.

2. Atron I'm not too sure, maybe double damage bonus and a hull hp buff to make it a mini taranis.

Dont wanna speculate on Minmatar cause I'm not really interested in its frigs other than the rifter and thats already fine.

Really appreciate you guys opinion/suggestions and let the discussion commence, I'm hoping something really good



Your ammar suggestions are a bit meh.

Your caldari and ammar suggestions are way OP: Kestrel with range and grid would be the OP rocket kiter, Bant. dmg and optimal on a frig hull?, Condor 3 launchers and double dmg bonus? lololololol, Gallente t1 frig to drone and turret dmag 0_0 you do realise ishkur doesnt have a drone dmg bonus right?

Minmatar you cant even be bothered...

Dude balance discussions require a more serious approch than buff ridiculously whatever happens to be in my gaqrage atm...
Dato Koppla
Balls Deep Inc.
Minmatar Fleet Alliance
#4 - 2012-06-08 09:06:40 UTC
@Kaikka
Definitely agreed on the same slots for all frigs, same rough EHP total as well (not taking into account bonuses)

@Crellion
I admit I was abit lazy in my descriptions cause the post was quite long but I meant for all the frigs I mentioned to have HP/Fitting buffs obviously in order to fit their new slot layout/bonuses. I was more specific with the Kestrel because I know the ship better is all.

I don't have that much experience so you could be right with my suggestions being OP, I just wanted to get the ball rolling. However, like I said, I want some discussion going so I can modify the post with popular opinion.

Sorry if I came off as 'BUFF EVERYTHING I HAVE TROLOLOL' I really do intend for serious discussion and would like more specifics on each hull.
Ponder Yonder
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#5 - 2012-06-08 12:09:55 UTC
If I had to redesign the the frigate lineup, I would do it like this:

Each race needs
- Close range brawler specialising a primary weapon system #1
- Close range brawler specialising a primary weapon system #2
- Long Range, versatile, split weapons combat frig
- Fast tackle
- Ewar / Logi (Yes, bring frigate sized logistics into the game)
- Scout
- Miners

Design rules:
- All ships should have a place in a gang or fleet.
- All ships should have 10 slots total
- All Ewar frigs should have 5 mids
- All Ewar frigs will also receive bonusses for armour/shield/cap transfer, as appropriate.
- All combat frigs get mining bonusses.

Caldari should be:
- Merlin: Close combat blasters *Done*
- Kestrel: Close combat rockets (4/4/2, 4 missile hardpoints) damage/ROF bonusses
- Bantam: Long range (4/4/2, 3 turret / 3 missile hardpoints), range bonusses
- Condor: Fast tackle (3/4/3, 2 turret / 2 missile hardpoints). speed/sig bonusses
- Griffin: EWar (3/5/2, 1 turret /1 missile/ 2 utility hardpoints), ECM / logi bonusses
- Heron: Scout (4/4/2, 1 turret /1 missile/ 2 utility hardpoints), Scan / Agility bonusses

Minmatar should be:
- Breacher: Close combat rockets (4/3/3, 4 missile hardpoints) Damage / ROF bonusses
- Burst: Close combat projectiles (4/3/3, 4 turret hardpoints) Damage / ROF bonusses
- Rifter: Long Range (4/3/3, 3 turret / 3 missile hardpoints), Damage / tracking bonusses
- Slasher: Fast tackle (3/4/3, 3 turret hardpoints), Speed / Sig bonusses
- Vigil: Ewar (3/5/2, 1 turret /1 missile, 2 utility hardpoints), TP / logi bonusses
- Probe: Scout (4/4/2, 1 turret /1 missile, 2 utility hardpoints), Scan / Agility bonusses

Amarr should be:
- Punisher: Close combat lasers *Done*
- Tormentor: Close combat/Tackle combo *Done*
- Inquisitor: Close combat rockets (4/2/4, 3 launcher hardpoints) Damage / ROF bonusses
- Executioner: Fast tackle (4/3/3, 2 turret / 2 missile hardpoints, 2 utility hardpoints), Speed / Sig bonusses
- Crucifier: Ewar (2/5/3, 2 turret /2 utility hardpoints, Drones), TD / Logi bonusses
- Magnate: Scout (3/4/3, 2 turret /2 utility hardpoints) Scan / Agility bonusses

Gallente should be:
- Incursus: Close combat hybrids *Done*
- Navitas: Close combat drones (3/3/3, 15m3 drone bandwidth), Drone bonusses.
- Tristan: Long range (4/3/3. 2 turret, 2 missile hardpoints, 10m3 drone bandwidth), Damage/ Range bonusses
- Atron: Fast Tackle (3/3/4, 2 turret / 2 missile hardpoints, 1 utility hardpoints, 10m3 drone bandwidth), Speed / Sig bonusses
- Maulus: Ewar (2/5/3, 2 turret / 2 missile hardpoints, 10m3 drone bandwidth) Damp / Logi bonusses
- Imicus: Scout (3/4/3, 1 turret, 2 utility harpoints, 15m3 drone bandwidth) Scan / Agility bonusses

Balance:
- Bonusses should be adjusted for balance and racial coherence. The bonusses should differentiate between ships in the same role, e.g. Gallente - Active tank, Amarr - Buffer tank
- CPU/PG should allow low skilled players to fly the ships in the appropriate role, using meta 1-3 fittings only.
- CPU/PG should allow high skill players to fly the ships in the appropriate role, using Tech2 fittings.
- CPU/PG should never allow top tier weapons along with top tier shields/plates. I.e Max tank OR Max gank, never both.
- Existing inertia/speed/mass doctrine should remain


Flame away


- Ponder
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#6 - 2012-06-08 12:13:34 UTC
This is just silly.

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Renier Gaden
Immortal Guides
#7 - 2012-06-08 15:06:57 UTC
Why would you eliminate the mining frigate?

The Bantam’s role is Industrial Frigate just like the Osprey is an Industrial Cruiser. They can fit weapons so that they can defend themselves when operating in hostile environments. If CCP ever gives us Logistics Frigates I would expect the Caldari one to be based on the Bantom hull. I see no good reason to take away the Bantom’s cargo and mining bonuses and turn it into a war ship.

The Kestrel when fitted with Light Missiles would be your range ship for Caldari.

I would be against eliminating the mining frigate role from the other races as well. I spent my first 3 months of EVE in low sec by myself. When all my ships got blown up, I would go mine in an Ibis until I could build a Bantom, then mine with a Bantom until I could build a Kestrel to run missions. Then when I was not running missions, I would mine some more in my Bantom until I could build an Osprey. I really appreciated the mining and cargo bonuses on the Bantom.
Ponder Yonder
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#8 - 2012-06-08 15:59:52 UTC
Renier Gaden wrote:
Why would you eliminate the mining frigate?

The Bantam’s role is Industrial Frigate just like the Osprey is an Industrial Cruiser. They can fit weapons so that they can defend themselves when operating in hostile environments. If CCP ever gives us Logistics Frigates I would expect the Caldari one to be based on the Bantom hull. I see no good reason to take away the Bantom’s cargo and mining bonuses and turn it into a war ship.

The Kestrel when fitted with Light Missiles would be your range ship for Caldari.

I would be against eliminating the mining frigate role from the other races as well. I spent my first 3 months of EVE in low sec by myself. When all my ships got blown up, I would go mine in an Ibis until I could build a Bantom, then mine with a Bantom until I could build a Kestrel to run missions. Then when I was not running missions, I would mine some more in my Bantom until I could build an Osprey. I really appreciated the mining and cargo bonuses on the Bantom.


I did not propose that at all. Quite the contrary: I proposed that all combat frigs get mining bonusses. Your Bantam remains a mining vessel, but it can be used as a functional warship too.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#9 - 2012-06-08 16:54:44 UTC
I think the intention is for there to be a new ORE ship that fulfills the role of cheap newbie mining ship.
Mira Lynne
State War Academy
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-06-08 18:49:14 UTC
Caldari:
Kestrel: 5% Bonus to Rate of Fire and 5% Bonus to Shield Resists per Level.
4/4/2
4 Launchers No Turrets No Drones

Bantam: 10% Bonus to Hybrid Range (Optimal and Falloff) and 5% bonus to small hybrid Damage
4/3/3
3 Turrets 1 Launcher No Drones

Condor: 5% Bonus to Launcer Rate of Fire and 10% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Velocity
4/4/2
4 Launchers No turrets No Drones

Minmatar:
Breacher: 5% Bonus to Launcher Rate of Fire and 5% Bonus to Light Missile and Rocket Explosive Damage
4/3/3 3 Launchers 1 Turret No Drones

Burst: 5% Bonus to Projectile and Launhcer Explosive Damage and Rate of Fire
4/2/4 2 Turrets 2 Launhcers 10m3 Drone Bay

Slasher: 5% Bonus to Projectile Explosive Damage and Range (Optimal and Falloff)
3/3/4 3 Turrets No Launchers No Drones

Amarr:
Tormentor: 10% Bonus to energy Turret Cap use and Range (Optimal and Falloff)
3/3/4 2 Turrets No Launchers 10m3 Drone Bay

Inquisitor: 5% Bonus to Launcher Rate of Fire and EM Damage
4/2/4 3 Launhcers 1 Turret No Drones

Executioner: 10% Bonus to Energy Turret Cap use and Range
3/3/4 3 Turrets No Launchers No Drones

Gallente:
Incursus: 5% Hybrid Damage and 7.5% Hybrid Tracking
3/3/4 3 Turrets No Launchers 5m3 Drone Bay

Tristan: 5% Hybrid and Launcher Rate of Fire and 5% Hybrid Damage and Launcher Thermal Damage
4/3/3 2 Turrets 2 Launhcers 15m3 Drone Bay, 10mb/s bandwidth

Atron: 5% Hybrid Tracking and 10% Hybrid Range (Optimal and Falloff)
4/3/3 3 Turrets No Launchers 10m3 Drone Bay

Navitas: 5% Hybrid Damage and 10% Drone Hitpoints.
3/3/4 2 Turrets 1 Launcher 25m3 Drone Bay, 15mb/s Bandwidth

Except for the Navitas and Tristan, all ships have as much Bandwidth as they have Bay.
This would give ships very loose engagement ranges:
-Bantam is Medium Range Blasters or Long Range Rails
-Kestrel is Close range Rocket Brawler/Long Range Missile Sniper
-Condor Is medium Long Range Rockets and Extreme Long Range Missiles
-Burst is a miniature 'phoon, flexibility from multiple weapon systems
-Slasher with ACs has great damage application, with Arty has Great Range
-Exequtioner is Medium Range Pulses or Long Range Beams
-Tormentor has the same engagement range as the exequtioner but with more emphasis on drones
-Incursus is Close range Blasters or Medium Long Range Rails
-Tristan is skill intenseive but versatile
-Atron has low DPS, but extremely Versatile engagement Range and great damage application.
-Navitas can kite with Rails and Drones or Brawl with Blasters and Drones

[u]I, too, horse frogs.[/u] Support the Return of Realistic Module Icons! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=114818&find=unread

Velarra
#11 - 2012-06-08 23:14:02 UTC
An industrial frigate that could be fit to genuinely mine ore and simultaneously, aggressively engage hostiles would be entertaining.

For say solo or small gang lowsec frigate mining / aggressive combat roams?
Peta Michalek
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-06-09 07:19:19 UTC
Ponder Yonder wrote:

[snip]


It's... beautiful
Liam Mirren
#13 - 2012-06-10 08:22:07 UTC
I didn't think it was possible to be less competent at ship balancing than the DEVS but this thread proves it's not that difficult to do.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.