EVE General Discussion

No, it's not.

There is no accounting of players because they never try to count them because it would be a methodological clusterfuck to try to do so. Every QEN ever (and every other presentation during and since the period when they were published) counts characters, and you cannot trivially use that number as a measure of player population.

They aren't counting active characters. They're counting characters on active accounts. There's a significant difference, and it does not give any kind of view of player locations.

A player with two accounts and six characters, with a main in null, a cyno alt in low and four trading alts in the major hubs will show up as exactly that: 66% highsec characters, 16 percent each of low and null characters… and yet it's a nullsec player behind them all. Thus, for all we know, the population charts showing 66% characters in highsec means that there are no highsec players at all (except for those newbies that show up when you include <5M SP characters). Of course, we can dismiss that hypothesis just on the basis of how many people on the forums are considering themselves highsec players, but it illustrates why we cannot use those character population numbers as any kind of reasonable indicator for player population.

No, we're arguing that the numbers cannot be interpreted as counting players because the link between character and player is far too weak. It's not a matter of detail — it's a matter of simply not having the data.

…who'll say that both charts are counting characters, because that's what they always count and why he's comparing them: one shows all characters; the other shows non-newbie characters (newbie being defined as having less than 5M SP).

WE ARE THE 75%!!!!
WE ARE THE 75%!!!!
WE ARE THE 75%!!!!

Now where was the cop car I was taking a cr*p on just now?

S

I suppose that would come down to the tools being used then. Pre-nerf a groups running the same shiptypes in low/null would out earn a highsec incursion (again not accounting for interruptions or losses), but if nullsec was letting new players in while highsec was muscling them out in favor of pimp fit pirate BS's, then yes, I can see highsec making more.

…except that the method used — there as everywhere else when they've presented population numbers — is character snapshots. That's why he can even make the comparison between “everyone” and “non-newbies” to begin with, and he's just being a bit sloppy with the language when calling them “players”.

Oh, and if you're going to believe that he's counting people, not characters, then you need to believe that people, not characters, have SP, because it's through SP that those “people” are being culled from appearing in the second chart.

They probably could, but they don't. If they did, they would have been able to present “accounts per player” stats along with the “characters per account” stats they produce… but the thing is that they never do. In addition, it would still be methodologically unsound, since credit card + IP doesn't necessarily equates to “a player”.

…and even then, there's no way of telling where the player “belongs” without asking them (which would make all the character counting redundant).

Tippia, take from it what you will (hell, I know a hi-sec player who at one time ran 26 accounts, all in hi-sec - there will always be statistical flyers) the snapshots show a consistent trend - as you say, it would be a logistical nightmare to know where all the players are. But given a long enough time frame and the numbers remaining somewhat consistent year to year, character activity is the best information we have. vOv

To get back to the OP (and my point) Null sec'ers need to do a better job of recruiting and supporting new players if they want them to leave hi-sec.

Bottom line.

Surely common sense tells you that the type of player who'd go to the effort of hiding things that much is going to be relatively rare. It wouldn't bias the numbers that much, certainly not enough to change a substantial majority into a minority.

Which are you more active on?

The chart doesn't refer to people — the powerpoint slide does. The chart refers to population, which is a character count. Oh, and yes, the slide is improperly titled.

As luck would have it, the majority of players are playing with the PvP sand.

Common sense is about as methodologically unsound as it gets, so it tells us nothing. It has nothing to do with hiding anything — it has to do with being able to reliably use one number as a proxy for a different one. Husband + wife plays EVE — same IP, same CC#, two players. Husband + wife, where the wife gave up on EVE — same IP, different CC# (because she used her own), one player. Ten guys in a college dorm corridor — same IP, one CC# and 20 accounts created with buddy links and PLEX. And on it goes…

…and “best” still equates to “no information” — the numbers remaining consistent doesn't affect the inability to translate character count to player count, because you still have to run it through the “how many character does every player have, where are they, and what is the player's ‘home’ sec region?” filter. A consistent player population distribution with a consistent character placement pattern will lead to a consistent character population distribution.

So on an infinite timeframe, it's still impossible to determine player distribution from character distribution without knowing that placement pattern.

like shooting ships with no guns? awesome stuff, you sir are king of the universe

PS im not opposed to danger, i must certainly didnt "cry" when i lost a mining boat recently, but your head is both overly bloated and shoved up your ass, its a terrible combo

PPS I was an incursion runner but mostly hq's but i quit that weeks if not months before the nerfs anyway so yeah i was part of the mob for a bit, but only the harder end, and only for a limited time anyway!

PPPS have fun blowing stuff up /wave

If 75 percent of players didn't sub for PVP and the devs estimate that 70 percent of characters reside in high sec, then the two numbers are close enough to know you're in the ballpark. This assumes that people who aren't PVP oriented are mostly living in high sec and that the similarity in the two numbers come from that. I could be wrong of course.

Some of you guys want to turn this into a complete mystery when it's not. The devs have said repeatedly that the overwhelming majority of players live in high sec. You can try to spin that to mean what you want, and you're giving it such a sincere try that it's kind of heartbreaking. You just don't want to believe the facts.

Seventy percent is considerably lower than the QEN estimates. Those data were based on snapshots of actual players and where they were at given times, meaning players who were actually logged on and playing. That was my understanding, anyway. Since only one player can be logged on per account. then the two numbers were the same in terms of the QEN. I'm going by memory though and I could be wrong.