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We Aren't Trying Hard Enough

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Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2012-06-08 02:10:26 UTC
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Disregard That wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:

Post with your frikken main...

I would if I could?

POINT!

LolLolLolLol

Not really at all relevant to the discussion though.

You see, I'm trying to adhere to these things called "The Rules" here.
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#102 - 2012-06-08 02:10:36 UTC
Greyscale Dash wrote:
Apparently the survey results indicate that most people do two very naughty things.

1. play solo
2. are pve only.

In fact, only about 1/4 of all players are interested in the pvp aspects of the game.


This is unacceptable.
We obviously aren't trying hard enough to force them into lo sec.

Time to step up the ganking. They resist, but once they lose some hulks and are forced down they'll enjoy the game.



that'll work....Roll

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Barbara Nichole
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2012-06-08 02:12:45 UTC
ModeratedToSilence wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Thought the PvP thing was "Why they subbed" and not "What they mostly do"


Statistics - all in the interpretation.



nope... statistics are all in the leading questions.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#104 - 2012-06-08 02:13:04 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Tippia wrote:
By the way, do you have an actual source for that quote?

Why yes, yes we do...
That's not the source of the quote — that's a different point of comparison saying roughly the same thing (which still isn't that any specific percentage of players are in highsec).

Since the numbers won't really tell anything new and interesting, I was mainly wondering about the date to see which way the numbers were heading.

Quote:
And the snapshot shows activity...
No, it shows character locations at the time of the data collection.
Quote:
Are you denying that there are more people in Hi-sec now? There is very little way to parse the numbers, when the numbers are so sparse...
What he and I are saying is that the amount of people in highsec is unknowable and that trying to extrapolate them from something as unrelated as a character count will be so inherently unreliable that, yes, it could very well be that highsec has a minority of the players.


Actually listen to what is said by the man on stage during fanfest. Those are unique "players". He doesn't characters.
Ginseng Jita
PAN-EVE TRADING COMPANY
#105 - 2012-06-08 02:16:59 UTC
Also, if you listen further, he states that the number one activity in EVE is PvE - mission running.
masternerdguy
Doomheim
#106 - 2012-06-08 02:17:48 UTC
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Also, if you listen further, he states that the number one activity in EVE is PvE - mission running.


Gee. Nobody ever runs missions to fund pvp.

Things are only impossible until they are not.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#107 - 2012-06-08 02:18:30 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Also, if you listen further, he states that the number one activity in EVE is PvE - mission running.


I'd probably run missions for isk if they would let us install agents as system upgrades in Null. It would be slightly more engaging than mindless ratting. So I can see that.

Also the above poster is correct. More than a little bit of that money is to pay for kablooie.

I don't rat for the sake of ratting.
Chopper Rollins
Brave Newbies Inc.
Brave Collective
#108 - 2012-06-08 02:20:14 UTC
masternerdguy wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:

If all the people in null-sec left, others would move in and take their place. The game is not all about null-sec. Never has been. It is because of this fact that a few. like yourself that whine and moan about the rest of the game, that the rest of the game is constantly being shelved to address a small percentage of players. There are more people playing than just you - remember that....many, many, many, more.


We've seen your hi sec community in action with the recent incursion nerf.

"We're a vital and relevant roleplaying community CCP and the bonds we've forged will endure through time"

--1 nerf later--

"ISK/hr for incursion not good enough I'm gonna solo level 4s again"

Yep. You guys totally have the drive, determination, and skill it takes to build a nullsec empire. You only complain about it because nullsec is too hard for you because it would require you to form real connections with other people and actually fight for something.



Yeah look, concerning the bolded bit up there, I have a job and a family. I'm the boss all day and I only have between one and three hours to log on to Eve for some fun and laughs. Tore down the hisec POS because feeding it got to be like a job. Damned if I'm gonna burn too many IQ points doing personnel, logistics and accounting work when I log on.
If that's what you enjoy, or need to feel like you're significant, go for it. I'm playing Eve for fun and the srs bsnss pvppppppers often strike me as a tragic minority of douches. The CSM is loaded with em so they can vent their frustrations maybe?


Goggles. Making me look good. Making you look good.
strikethree
Purple Passion Procurements
#109 - 2012-06-08 02:25:32 UTC
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Greyscale Dash wrote:
Apparently the survey results indicate that most people do two very naughty things.

1. play solo
2. are pve only.

In fact, only about 1/4 of all players are interested in the pvp aspects of the game.


This is unacceptable.
We obviously aren't trying hard enough to force them into lo sec.

Time to step up the ganking. They resist, but once they lose some hulks and are forced down they'll enjoy the game.


A lot of them just refuse to try other aspects of the game. A girl (omg, a real one too!) in my corp quit EVE last week because all she wants to do is mine solo. She felt she was being forced to play a certain way & wouldn't submit to that. I could not stop laughing.


Do you even hear what you are saying? "She quit because she would not submit her will to what other people wanted." Um, you do realize that it is her money and her enjoyment that is at stake. It does not matter at all what YOU think she should be doing. She should be doing whatever interests her and if that is solo mining, then tough cookies for you. Go suicide gank her or something.

Let me make it even clearer for you since you appear to be completely blind: Would you keep playing if people forced you to be an industrialist? A mission runner? No way! You would quit in an instant and say something like, "Who would want to do boring crap like that?". Well, the reverse is true too.

I am just astounded that you would try to force someone to do something they do not want to do and then laugh that they quit over it. You are the classic example of jerk. They should post your pic in the dictionary.

Of course, the freedom to BE a jerk is one of the main reasons why I like Eve. :)
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2012-06-08 02:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Disregard That
Chopper Rollins wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:

If all the people in null-sec left, others would move in and take their place. The game is not all about null-sec. Never has been. It is because of this fact that a few. like yourself that whine and moan about the rest of the game, that the rest of the game is constantly being shelved to address a small percentage of players. There are more people playing than just you - remember that....many, many, many, more.


We've seen your hi sec community in action with the recent incursion nerf.

"We're a vital and relevant roleplaying community CCP and the bonds we've forged will endure through time"

--1 nerf later--

"ISK/hr for incursion not good enough I'm gonna solo level 4s again"

Yep. You guys totally have the drive, determination, and skill it takes to build a nullsec empire. You only complain about it because nullsec is too hard for you because it would require you to form real connections with other people and actually fight for something.



Yeah look, concerning the bolded bit up there, I have a job and a family. I'm the boss all day and I only have between one and three hours to log on to Eve for some fun and laughs. Tore down the hisec POS because feeding it got to be like a job. Damned if I'm gonna burn too many IQ points doing personnel, logistics and accounting work when I log on.
If that's what you enjoy, or need to feel like you're significant, go for it. I'm playing Eve for fun and the srs bsnss pvppppppers often strike me as a tragic minority of douches. The CSM is loaded with em so they can vent their frustrations maybe?



I want to confirm that there are no employed people with families in nullsec. No CEO or "boss" of a real world work environment lives in Eve nullsec. Casual gameplay is impossible there; and, to wit, organizing anything of any scale in Eve requires more time than anybody with such weighted responsibilities could possibly muster. Also, PVP'ers don't play for fun, they play for the beancounting. PVPers are also all douches. This can be evidenced by their willingness to see and use the tools in Eve against other players who are their competition. And Eve Online players must really like douches. All of the CSM but one or two are, after all, douches.

Apparently only douches play to win against their competitors. And doing so requires them to be unemployed loveless losers in Eve Online.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#111 - 2012-06-08 02:30:23 UTC
Ginseng Jita wrote:
Actually listen to what is said by the man on stage during fanfest. Those are unique "players". He doesn't characters.
Yes, that's why the chart says “characters > 5M skillpoints". Roll
So no, it's characters. It has always been characters, because that's the only thing they can measure.

Quote:
Also, if you listen further, he states that the number one activity in EVE is PvE
…which runs into the same problem as trying to extrapolate from characters to players: they are not exclusive categories. Just because the number one activity is PvE doesn't mean that most players are PvE:ers. If you listen further, you'll also note that 75% of players like PvP…

Asuri Kinnes wrote:
I believe Turbfelds tweet was the source, taken from the Fan Fest presentation.
No, it was this, which came out a month before EyjoG's presentation, thus showing that the number of highsec characters was actually going down…
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#112 - 2012-06-08 02:33:12 UTC  |  Edited by: SmilingVagrant
Chopper Rollins wrote:
masternerdguy wrote:
Ginseng Jita wrote:

If all the people in null-sec left, others would move in and take their place. The game is not all about null-sec. Never has been. It is because of this fact that a few. like yourself that whine and moan about the rest of the game, that the rest of the game is constantly being shelved to address a small percentage of players. There are more people playing than just you - remember that....many, many, many, more.


We've seen your hi sec community in action with the recent incursion nerf.

"We're a vital and relevant roleplaying community CCP and the bonds we've forged will endure through time"

--1 nerf later--

"ISK/hr for incursion not good enough I'm gonna solo level 4s again"

Yep. You guys totally have the drive, determination, and skill it takes to build a nullsec empire. You only complain about it because nullsec is too hard for you because it would require you to form real connections with other people and actually fight for something.



Yeah look, concerning the bolded bit up there, I have a job and a family. I'm the boss all day and I only have between one and three hours to log on to Eve for some fun and laughs. Tore down the hisec POS because feeding it got to be like a job. Damned if I'm gonna burn too many IQ points doing personnel, logistics and accounting work when I log on.
If that's what you enjoy, or need to feel like you're significant, go for it. I'm playing Eve for fun and the srs bsnss pvppppppers often strike me as a tragic minority of douches. The CSM is loaded with em so they can vent their frustrations maybe?




Yeah you really didn't address anything there no offense. One doesn't have to lead a community to be a part of it. For every "Dynamic Leader" and "Heroic Logistics Team" there are a dozen guys who just play when they can, chill out and are active members of the community who add to it by simply being there.

The fact that the "Incursion Community" couldn't survive a punchdown in payouts that brought it about even with mission running just shows that it was never a "Community". Just a means to an end. There is nothing embarrassing about it. Our incursion SIG (Special Interest Group) literally keeled over and died with the changes, and we were doing them in low. We were there for the money, when the money dried up to the point where doing anoms in our home space was a similar enough payout not to justify living out of our carriers, we went home.

Oh and I think they got hit too hard as well. But that's neither here nor there.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#113 - 2012-06-08 02:38:24 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
Tippia wrote:
By the way, do you have an actual source for that quote?

Why yes, yes we do...
That's not the source of the quote — that's a different point of comparison saying roughly the same thing (which still isn't that any specific percentage of players are in highsec).

Since the numbers won't really tell anything new and interesting, I was mainly wondering about the date to see which way the numbers were heading.

Quote:
And the snapshot shows activity...
No, it shows character locations at the time of the data collection.
Quote:
Are you denying that there are more people in Hi-sec now? There is very little way to parse the numbers, when the numbers are so sparse...
What he and I are saying is that the amount of people in highsec is unknowable and that trying to extrapolate them from something as unrelated as a character count will be so inherently unreliable that, yes, it could very well be that highsec has a minority of the players.

Actually - it seems that this is the best accounting of players (as Dr E stated) that we're going to get. Since it seems to be similar to the numbers from 2010 4th Quarter QEN (last QEN) i'm just going to go ahead and accept that this is as close to "hard numbers" we're going to get.

Is there slop here? Yeah, but it gives an overall view of player locations. If players weren't on the toons doing whatever, they wouldn't be active in that space to be counted.

Are there alts of 0.0, low-sec and WH's present in those numbers? Of course. But are there likely to be "hi-sec" residents located outside hi-sec?

Sure, I'm *not* limiting my definition of "hi-sec" resident to "never steps out of hi-sec". Hell, I know of at least two people, solo players, who do nothing but low-sec exploration... and Hi-Sec war-decs...

They define themselves as "hi-sec'rs" because activities in other areas of space don't interest them enough to self-identify with other areas.

So, once again, we're either arguing semantics (who should be counted in which group) or arguing that the numbers aren't detailed enough, when in fact, there *is* enough information to at least make a reasonable guess...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#114 - 2012-06-08 02:40:27 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Asuri Kinnes wrote:
I believe Turbfelds tweet was the source, taken from the Fan Fest presentation.
No, it was this, which came out a month before EyjoG's presentation, thus showing that the number of highsec characters was actually going down…

Whichever it was, even those numbers are very close (statistically irrelevant differences) to Dr E's numbers at 05:34 of the fanfest presentation...

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#115 - 2012-06-08 02:40:27 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Stensson
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Yeah you really didn't address anything there no offense. One doesn't have to lead a community to be a part of it. For every "Dynamic Leader" and "Heroic Logistics Team" there are a dozen guys who just play when they can, chill out and are active members of the community who add to it by simply being there.

The fact that the "Incursion Community" couldn't survive a punchdown in payouts that brought it about even with mission running just shows that it was never a "Community". Just a means to an end. There is nothing embarrassing about it. Our incursion SIG (Special Interest Group) literally keeled over and died with the changes, and we were doing them in low. We were there for the money, when the money dried up to the point where doing anoms in our home space was a similar enough payout not to justify living out of our carriers, we went home.

Oh and I think they got hit too hard as well. But that's neither here nor there.

I wonder if the Incursion code is irrespective of security rating of the system?

It seems like the risk vs. reward should scale up.

If low/null Incursions pay the same as high-sec's, that's really a horse of a different color.

Personally, I feel high-sec Incursions were hit quite rightly.

Edit: Pyramid quoting removed - ISD Stensson
Barbelo Valentinian
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#116 - 2012-06-08 02:45:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
What he and I are saying is that the amount of people in highsec is unknowable and that trying to extrapolate them from something as unrelated as a character count will be so inherently unreliable that, yes, it could very well be that highsec has a minority of the players.


The first chart that shows around 70% is a "Population" count; the chart with the 66% is a "Character above 5m sp" count.

But both 70% and 66% are still a "majority", and it's pretty clear that the presenter is talking in terms of players. The first charts are titled "Where in the world do people live?"

Unless you want to take it up with Dr EyjoG? Big smile
Asuri Kinnes
Perkone
Caldari State
#117 - 2012-06-08 02:49:20 UTC
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Unless you want to take it up with Dr EyjoG? Big smile

I honestly think sticking Dr E and Tippia (and malcanis, and a few others) in the same room for a few days would be overall good for the game...

Maybe not so good for the Doctor... Lol

Bob is the god of Wormholes.

That's all you need to know.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#118 - 2012-06-08 02:52:36 UTC
Disregard That wrote:

I wonder if the Incursion code is irrespective of security rating of the system?

It seems like the risk vs. reward should scale up.

If low/null Incursions pay the same as high-sec's, that's really a horse of a different color.

Personally, I feel high-sec Incursions were hit quite rightly.


Oh hey: Knowledge that I can post on!

Highsec incursions did pay less, but the complete lack or risk allowed for fitting and optimization that made them pay out far more than a group doing lowsec incursions could make if they were to fit prudent to their situations due to the speed at which they could be run.

The name of the game in lowsec incursions was HAC's and T3's that way you were moderately nimble, well tanked and small sigged running with at least 3 logi's. This was pretty much how they had to be run in null and low because tangling with pirates wasn't something that "May" happen. It was something that simply was going to happen.

I didn't go to a single incursion where we didn't fight off a gang or lose members of the incursion group to gangs that successfully jumped us.

If we were to run the big Mach/Vindi etc etc etc gangs like the highsec people were: We'd have been murdered in very expensive ships due to the giant sigs.
SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#119 - 2012-06-08 02:56:24 UTC
Barbelo Valentinian wrote:
Tippia wrote:
What he and I are saying is that the amount of people in highsec is unknowable and that trying to extrapolate them from something as unrelated as a character count will be so inherently unreliable that, yes, it could very well be that highsec has a minority of the players.


The first chart that shows around 70% is a "Population" count; the chart with the 66% is a "Character above 5m sp" count.

But both 70% and 66% are still a "majority", and it's pretty clear that the presenter is talking in terms of players. The first charts are titled "Where in the world do people live?"

Unless you want to take it up with Dr EyjoG? Big smile


How would you differentiate between my Carrier pilot who spends most of his time in low and my subcap dude who spends most of his time in null (And admittedly sometimes low)? The only real way to find out of I'm a guy who likes roaming nullsec but makes my home in low is to ask me. I have ships spread all over hell so even looking at my primary accumulation of assets won't work. Especially since I still have most of my incursion staging crap in the bowels of lowsec.

Also the thought that CCP has a reporting tool competent enough to make these distinctions is laughable. We're talking about "Zee logs show nothing!" CCP here.
Disregard That
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#120 - 2012-06-08 02:56:47 UTC
SmilingVagrant wrote:
Disregard That wrote:

I wonder if the Incursion code is irrespective of security rating of the system?

It seems like the risk vs. reward should scale up.

If low/null Incursions pay the same as high-sec's, that's really a horse of a different color.

Personally, I feel high-sec Incursions were hit quite rightly.


Oh hey: Knowledge that I can post on!

Highsec incursions did pay less, but the complete lack or risk allowed for fitting and optimization that made them pay out far more than a group doing lowsec incursions could make if they were to fit prudent to their situations due to the speed at which they could be run.

The name of the game in lowsec incursions was HAC's and T3's that way you were moderately nimble, well tanked and small sigged running with at least 3 logi's. This was pretty much how they had to be run in null and low because tangling with pirates wasn't something that "May" happen. It was something that simply was going to happen.

I didn't go to a single incursion where we didn't fight off a gang or lose members of the incursion group to gangs that successfully jumped us.

If we were to run the big Mach/Vindi etc etc etc gangs like the highsec people were: We'd have been murdered in very expensive ships due to the giant sigs.


This is quite insightful. Quite insightful, indeed.

So what this means is that, typically, low and null Incursions pay less reward for their relative risk than high-sec Incursions?

Yeah, maybe they were hit too hard. But not in high-sec.