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Leaving Eve forever. Tried putting this in my cancellation reason.
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SmilingVagrant
Doomheim
#101 - 2012-06-07 23:07:31 UTC
The first thing I do when I get home is take off my pants.

Play with some space ships.

Ahhhh. Space ships.
Lin-Young Borovskova
Doomheim
#102 - 2012-06-07 23:11:53 UTC
GL

brb
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#103 - 2012-06-07 23:15:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
THE L0CK wrote:
Because the apple is just one of the problems. Also I am real curious as to the specs of this "overkill" computer. You also brought up what sounds like a horrible ISP speed which also attributes to the issue. I mean seriously, you can have the hot rod of computers but connecting it to a slow ass modem is like putting a single barrel carb on your 454 big block. You are going to have a choke point.


No ****, Sherlock. That's exactly what the OP has been saying all along. The issue he has is that the game makes horribly inefficient use of what bandwidth is available.

Dock at a station: do you want to load all assets in the whole universe or just the assets that should be visible in open windows? Difference in traffic is about 10MB versus 100kB. It doesn't matter how fat your pipe is, inefficient use of resources is inefficient. When your system's memory is only servicing one game, inefficiency isn't so important. When you're also trying to read email, browse web sites (such as corporation/alliance forums) and build your latest killer EVE web application, memory usage is important due to reducing the amount of swapping required. Just because modern computers have 10 times the speed and resources available doesn't mean you should expand your software to use those resources!

The folks writing the UI must only be testing on the corporate LAN, connected to the server by Gigabit Ethernet (or worse, having their client and server on the same machine). They really need to have their development boxes separated from their development servers by network simulators that inject delays of 100ms and limit bandwidth to 1Mbps, just so they can be made more aware of the issues that their poor code is causing.

Yes, some people do indeed have ping times greater than 100ms and bandwidth of less than 1Mbps. EVE was quite playable last year in such conditions.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Doc Severide
Doomheim
#104 - 2012-06-07 23:37:10 UTC
OP = Melodramatic goofball. Good riddance...
THE L0CK
Denying You Access
#105 - 2012-06-07 23:38:44 UTC
Translation: They should dumb down the system to accommodate players with dated software who are trying to multitask.

Do you smell what the Lock's cooking?
Klown Walk
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-06-07 23:40:09 UTC
The game would be unplayable/dead without patches.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#107 - 2012-06-07 23:48:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Some random guy quitting a game because of patches and technological progress.

I stopped reading after i've noticed that some random guy started a list about things
that happened in the past. Things some random guy obviously wasn't able to get over from.

Some random guy shouldn't forget to biomass himself.
Lykouleon
Noble Sentiments
Second Empire.
#108 - 2012-06-07 23:50:43 UTC
So...basically you can't play any online game that isn't circa 1998 and have no ability to understand the complexities of doing something more with computer programing than 1+1 and solitaire?

Also HAHAHA you expect a macbook to be able to actually play a decent game...

Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER so I can hit them with my sword
Spy 21
Doomheim
#109 - 2012-06-07 23:53:11 UTC
strikethree wrote:
I am cancelling my subscription due to my belief that the chronic problems that I have witnessed will never be addressed. They cover two main categories, Quality Control and Resource Usage.
***stuff***
. Good bye and good luck to all.


Although I completely disagree with your assertions... which is just my opinion of course. Am giving you a thumbs up just for the fact you strung so many words together and managed to stay coherent.

+1

S

Obfuscation for the WIN on page 3...
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#110 - 2012-06-08 00:00:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Name another MMO that doesn't inject bugs. Hell, many of the big single player games are coming out with some rather massive bugs these days.
Are you suggesting that CCP hold itself to low standards and release features or major patches with well-documented game-breaking defects and design problems? Is that a desirable level of service for which you believe that we should pay via either cash or PLEX?

"That is what everybody else is doing" is a weak argument, my space friend.

+++++++ I have never shed a tear for a fellow EVE player until now. Mark “Seleene” Heard's Blog Honoring Sean "Vile Rat" Smith.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#111 - 2012-06-08 00:05:08 UTC
You tried to play an online game on a Mac, with a 56k modem, and it's CCPs fault you didn't experience everything perfectly?

Heh, most original bad thread in a while, I guess.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Terajima Kazumi
Perkone
Caldari State
#112 - 2012-06-08 00:06:36 UTC
My Macbook Air runs the game just fine with none of the issues you're experiencing, and it's probably slower than your MBP. I bet the problem is on your end.
Large Marg
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2012-06-08 00:48:47 UTC
Well Mac is good to make music and graphics on mainly.

How often do you see them advertising a Mac as a Gaming Rig?
Never.....
Mac has its purpose, just not to well in the game market hence why so few games are for Mac compared to the PC.

I have had 3 PC's since Eve has been out and no big issues.
Ship freaking out in warp sometimes and I LMAO......

Far as connection goes I started playing Eve when it 1st came out. My DSL at best was 128k up/down... not the fastest but worked just fine.
I got fiber optic now 25mb up/down.

So get a PC with Nvidia video, go b*tch slap your ISP for sucking and get a new one and come back and join us.
strikethree
Purple Passion Procurements
#114 - 2012-06-08 01:39:02 UTC
THE L0CK wrote:
strikethree wrote:
THE L0CK wrote:
Alia Gon'die wrote:

I have to comment on your choice of computer as well. HOw much did you pay for that 2010 Macbook Pro? 1500-2000$? You could have just as easily gotten a very high quality windows laptop for the same price, and you would not be having gaming issues with it.


Well he would but only due to the nature of the beast. But he wouldn't be having many of the issues mentioned, that part is true. I wonder if OP realizes that MAc requires extra conversion which is why many companies don't even bother with compatibility for it.

But for price range Mac just can't compete with a PC. For what he did pay for that notebook he could have easily have gotten a high end laptop or pc that is quite comparable and as stated would have far fewer issues. Plus with PC you can upgrade parts as you move along.


I have multiple computers. Why is everyone focusing on the Apple? It is a computer that I have that exacerbates the worst of the resource usage issues. Even on my absurd overkill computer, I STILL have to wait for my ships to load. The problem is the inefficient use of resources, some of which even overkill hardware can not overcome because it is not a hardware problem.



Because the apple is just one of the problems. Also I am real curious as to the specs of this "overkill" computer. You also brought up what sounds like a horrible ISP speed which also attributes to the issue. I mean seriously, you can have the hot rod of computers but connecting it to a slow ass modem is like putting a single barrel carb on your 454 big block. You are going to have a choke point.

So I just did a test and to dock in a station and have everything loaded was a grand total of 3 seconds. To load from the hangar into the CQ was 15 seconds. To load back was 2 seconds. To enter space was 9 seconds. If those are the times you are getting then you are impatient. If you are getting longer times than that then it is probably client side.


You sure are posting in this thread a lot. I am kind of surprised you missed the details that you are asking about. I can understand the confusion about networking though.

I have three main computers that I play Eve on. The one that I use most is a 16 core monster (by current standards) that has 24 gigabytes of RAM, an 80 gigabyte SSD, a 3 terabyte RAID (a bit small but VERY fast), and a modest GTX460 with a gigabyte of video ram. I play Eve in a window that is slightly smaller than 2560x1920 on a 30 inch monitor. I have a dinky 24 inch 1920x1080 crap display as a "informational" monitor also attached. (MYOB about what information I display on it.)

The other computer that is not a Macbook Pro, note, not a plain Macbook, is a dual core rig with an 8800GTX and 6 gigs of ram.

The network connection at my house is reasonable for this day and age in America. It is 20 megabit down and supposedly 6 megabit up. It is not uncommon to see sustained transfer speeds over 2 megaBYTES per second.

The network issue becomes a problem when I am traveling. I travel a lot for my work. I am home now but over the past 7 years of my life, I have only spent about a year and a half at my house. Sometimes, I have no network connection at all. More frequently, I have a very limited network connection with low speeds and very low transfer caps.

In other words, the specs of the system have no bearing on how long it takes my inventory to load when I dock. The specs of my system have no bearing on poor graphics algorithms (Eve heats up my GTX460 more than Oblivion Skyrim does). The specs of my network connection have no bearing on the absurd amount of patching going on lately.

Look, I like that they want to fix stuff. Such an incredible amount of patching shows that a LOT of stuff is being released broken. I know, I know, QA/QC is hard and expensive. That is fine. Do not expect me to pay for substandard quality though.
strikethree
Purple Passion Procurements
#115 - 2012-06-08 01:44:10 UTC
THE L0CK wrote:
Translation: They should dumb down the system to accommodate players with dated software who are trying to multitask.



You have done much better trolls previously. Are you getting tired? Is it the end of the workday for you and you are just concentrating on going home? Seriously guy, give it a rest. If you really believe what you are saying, I feel incredibly sorry for your jaded soul.

strike
strikethree
Purple Passion Procurements
#116 - 2012-06-08 01:49:04 UTC
Spy 21 wrote:
strikethree wrote:
I am cancelling my subscription due to my belief that the chronic problems that I have witnessed will never be addressed. They cover two main categories, Quality Control and Resource Usage.
***stuff***
. Good bye and good luck to all.


Although I completely disagree with your assertions... which is just my opinion of course. Am giving you a thumbs up just for the fact you strung so many words together and managed to stay coherent.

+1

S


I just gave you 200m ISK. 180m because of your signature (and honesty). 20m for the compliment. Thank you and good day to you sir.

Respectfully,
Dave
strikethree
Purple Passion Procurements
#117 - 2012-06-08 02:04:29 UTC
Solstice Project wrote:
Some random guy quitting a game because of patches and technological progress.

I stopped reading after i've noticed that some random guy started a list about things
that happened in the past. Things some random guy obviously wasn't able to get over from.

Some random guy shouldn't forget to biomass himself.



Hm. I was not going to reply to morons anymore but I swear to god you appear to be an innocent moron so I will help you out a bit.

Something angered me a lot very recently. My market preferences were wiped out in a patch a day or two ago. It got me to thinking about how many times other things have upset me in the past. About how many times my overview preferences were wiped out in the past (they allow you to export and import overview prefs now so not such a big deal). Then I got to thinking about all the other crap that constantly happens (some of which are mentioned in my original post).

So here is the clue: If you want things to get better, you have to examine a pattern of behavior, not just one instance. A pattern takes time to evolve which means that some parts of the pattern happen before other parts. The order is important because some patterns will indicate that things will, perhaps a long time in the future, get better. Other patterns... not so much. I stated some of things that I am basing my pattern recognition upon. If this bothers you, then you are not examining such patterns and are generally saying that you do not care and that the game could be super buggy and it just would not matter.

It is fine if you do not care. I strongly suspect that CCP is "catering" to an audience of people just like you. That is fine. It is their business. They can do whatever they want. When it comes to spending MY money, it is MY business, not theirs. I choose to spend my money on things that interest me and dealing with crappy software and processes is not one of the things I am willing to pay for. A shame really as I like the game a lot.
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#118 - 2012-06-08 02:13:26 UTC
Most of the things you listed are in fact problems that should be fixed...but it all seems so minor.


Quote:
Hm. Why not? Let’s throw in something recent so the message is clear: The recent inventory management screen. People complained. People made suggestions. People showed how it could be implemented without causing major issues for people. All of it was soundly ignored. The new inventory management was sent out despite some minor bugs and it was made NON-OPTIONAL. Arrogance at its finest. For myself, I actually mostly like it despite the minor bugs but there is one major issue that I have with it. My ship’s cargo bay. I am unsure why my brain works this way, but I need to have a ship‘s cargo bay. Perhaps it is a mental separation that I need because, in my mind, the game is ship-centric. I do not know. Tweaking an inventory management screen is NOT a ship's cargo bay.


Game development is not a democracy. The new inventory is a good idea; to some extent there will be resistance just because people are used to the old ways...Just like there was resistance to the JB nerf, just like there was resistance to the Dominion sovereignty system, just as there was resistance to pretty much every change CCP has ever made.

The best they can do is read well-thought-out suggestions and see if said suggestions make things better. Personally, I like the new inventory system more than the old one. It has potential to be much better than it is now, but I'm already liking it more than existed before.


Regarding network usage - For the last year or so I've been using an extremely slow wired connection. I don't think it was 56k, but it was close - the maximum speed I could download anything at was 200 kb/s, and it was usually way less than that.
I had access to a fast WiFi network, but it would constantly drop packets so I could only really use it for large downloads.

I never noticed any excessively large load times given this. The last time I had to wait 5 seconds for my inventory to load was before Jita got its own node. I don't know why you're having these issues, but it certainly isn't universal. It's possible that many of your issues have to do with the Mac client - Mac ports of DirectX games are always slower than buggier than the Windows equivalent and it's often hard to do anything about it.

Regarding patching: It has become almost a universal idea among gamers, and EVE players in particular, that iterative patching is better than waiting forever for a patch. I'm not necessarily saying that this is a good idea, but people have been clamoring for years about how developers should release smaller, bite-sized patches more often to fix issues as soon as they pop up rather than let people deal with them for a long time. Putting things through long QA cycles like you suggest requires time. So, no matter what CCP does, a certain portion of the playerbase is going to get pissed at them.
Lou Green
The Havant Legion
#119 - 2012-06-08 02:17:36 UTC
strikethree wrote:
I am cancelling my subscription due to my belief that the chronic problems that I have witnessed will never be addressed. They cover two main categories, Quality Control and Resource Usage.


Quality control

Constant patching. Patches are not an acceptable form of Quality Control. Yes, I know that current business management practices say that the business will make more money if they let the users be beta testers (lots of game companies are doing this). Try calculating how much money is being made from me when I cancel my subscription over issues caused by being a beta tester. Respect me and give me a quality product for my money. Seriously.

Downtimes after major upgrades have never once been managed successfully. There is always a “last minute rush” to get things working which always extends downtimes by significant amounts. A serious company would take steps to ensure that such transitions would go smoothly. If they had succeeded even once, I might believe they are actually taking steps… but the results speak for themselves.

There are at least three different methods of patching that I am aware of. There is the in-game version where the patch downloads from within Eve itself. There is the newest version, aka the Eve Launcher. And finally, the most annoying one of all, is the 5mb downloader that must be downloaded in order to get an 8mb patch. I will discuss the last one more in the Resource Usage section.

Recurring bugs are a huge problem. Sound. Need I say more? No, but I will. I recall a little over two years ago when the sound system was absolutely broken. For a year. Yes, an entire year. I had to turn off the in-game sound on all of my computers (2 desktop and 1 laptop) for an entire year so I could play the game. Even now, after certain patches, I get weird static sounds periodically or sounds that do not play at the proper level or… meh. I suspect the sound system needs to be reprogrammed from scratch by someone who actually has experience writing such code. I do not mean to hurt the feelings of the coder who wrote the sound system but seriously, give it up. Let someone who is competent do it.

Sideways warp effects. I did not experience this bug at all when I first started playing. It is now a regular feature that keeps resurfacing. Not once or twice but constantly. I am unsure but it could be every third patch unless the moon is eclipsing a planet or there is a supernova in M61 that also coincides with the day of the week being a Tuesday. You can assure me that this is permanently fixed but the track record says clearly otherwise.


Resource usage

Network resources are abused in a grossly incompetent manner. The constant patching is a problem but read the part above about the 5mb downloader for an 8mb patch. When that method was in the heaviest use, I was on “broadband” that was roughly equivalent to a 56k modem. Yeah, I was not a happy camper. The other item in network resource usage is the inventory. A few (6?) months ago, I would dock and it would take 10 seconds or more for my ships to show up. It is generally reduced to 5 seconds or less now, but why is it not immediate (like it used to be!)? It seems that every time I dock, the client is downloading all of the inventory. If this is the case, it is grossly incompetent. Once the initial data is downloaded, the client should only get fresh data when there are changes, and that data should only be a delta. A periodic refresh, possibly time based (every hour?), could be implemented without serious problems.

The only computer based resources that frustrate me to death are the graphics. Okay, being pretty is important. I can understand and deal with that even if I do not respect it. Something is seriously wrong when a Macbook Pro made in 2010 overheats on a silly space-sim game while being able to play halflife 2 or more modern games without any real issues. I am sure that the graphics are more cutting edge now-a-days but the half life 2 (Source) engine could be swapped out from whatever graphics engine is currently being used and almost nobody would notice a difference in graphics quality. Yes, I travel around the world a LOT and I can not bring my desktop computer or home network connection with me. Resource usage is a massive problem for me.

Hm. Why not? Let’s throw in something recent so the message is clear: The recent inventory management screen. People complained. People made suggestions. People showed how it could be implemented without causing major issues for people. All of it was soundly ignored. The new inventory management was sent out despite some minor bugs and it was made NON-OPTIONAL. Arrogance at its finest. For myself, I actually mostly like it despite the minor bugs but there is one major issue that I have with it. My ship’s cargo bay. I am unsure why my brain works this way, but I need to have a ship‘s cargo bay. Perhaps it is a mental separation that I need because, in my mind, the game is ship-centric. I do not know. Tweaking an inventory management screen is NOT a ship's cargo bay.


I have tens billions of ISK worth of resources, ships, etc. in my hangars (no, I am not giving it away, it will rot). I have been playing this game for a fairly long time. I have made lots of friends. At some point in an abusive relationship, the person being abused needs to say enough. Well, I am saying it now. Enough!

To all of the capsuleers I have interacted with (positively and negatively), I will have fond memories of you. To CCP, well, let's just say that seeing your name on ANYTHING will assure me that I should stay far far away. Good bye and good luck to all.


Cool story bro,

P.S Stuff?
Magna Bellator
Doomheim
#120 - 2012-06-08 02:22:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Magna Bellator
Strikthree

I am new to Eve so I don’t know the whole “Bug” history, but I am a software engineer and I do realize your concerns. The problem I think is that now days there is a coming trend to keep an application in “beta” this deals with liability more than anything. If you throw any application into active final release, it goes with the territory that the game is perfect. So now days (and more so with Google it seems) is the philosophy that if you keep applications in Beta, you can then say that it is under active Quality testing, the old “cover your rear” philosophy. So most applications now days are “beta” even though technically they are finals.

The problem I too find with Eve from a first glance is 1) I think their hardware architecture could use some beefing up if it hasn’t already. Most of what I read from their website (and dated roughly around 2007), they are running dual core blades. And now days even for small-mid companies the norm is typically quad core blades. My organizations runs 16 core 128 GB blade systems on a BlueArc NAS running fiber optics cisco equipment, heavy backbones, and silverpeak units, and we are a small-mid size company that does no hosting, and does not receive near the amount of traffic Eve does. Although understandably that each environment requires a different archetecture, the point to this is the need to keep ahead of the curve and become state-of-the-art. The up and coming trend now days is Virtualization, and I will fight that tooth and nail and argue with anyone who thinks virtualization is the way to go (outside of dumb terminal operations I should add).

Now, turning an application around and releasing major versioning every 6 months while going through and completing all major life cycles is not impossible but I find that awfully quick if you want to do it right. Gaming is different than most applications, in that other applications you are bent on quality control whereas in gaming, the major pushing force is to ensure people stay actively engaged, and to do that you have to release builds at a timely rate, so you compromise a lot of QA to accomplish this. Do I agree with this mentality? No, do I agree with you that they should spend time fine tuning and stabilizing the current platform? Absolutely, does it happen in the real world? No.

But for an application that requires a monthly subscription, I would sure hope they realize the importance of ensuring the application is stable (you will never get a bug free app but you can sure get what you pay for).

"Programming today is a race between software engineers striving to build bigger and better idiot-proof programs, and the Universe trying to produce bigger and better idiots. So far, the Universe is winning.”